P4P800-E Deluxe and odd video problem

Hi,

I just assembled a new system:

P4P800-E Deluxe
P4 3.0
2GB RAM
WD 120GB SATA drive
CD-RW/DVD

When I first assembled the system, I put a Diamond ATI Radeon 7000 AGP video
card in. It worked perfectly. I have just exchanged the 7000 for a Matrox
G450 AGP card. For some reason, I'm now getting a slight flicker. I have
installed the most current Matrox driver and am using the same resolution,
color depth and refresh rate that I was using on my previous PC with the
same Matrox G450 card.

At the same time I switched the video cards, I switch the Logitech mouse
from PS/2 to USB. I can't imagine that would make a difference... would it?

Are there any setting in the P4P800-E Deluxe BIOS that might be causing
this? I am using the most recent BIOS v.1002.

John

Further information....

I now notice that I can "force" the flicker by moving the mouse over a web
page full of links. As the pointer passes quickly over the links, there is
a very subtle flicker that occurs and stops the moment the mouse stops
moving. Any ideas what this is about?

John



"John Blaustein" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I just assembled a new system:

P4P800-E Deluxe
P4 3.0
2GB RAM
WD 120GB SATA drive
CD-RW/DVD

When I first assembled the system, I put a Diamond ATI Radeon 7000 AGP
video
card in. It worked perfectly. I have just exchanged the 7000 for a
Matrox
G450 AGP card. For some reason, I'm now getting a slight flicker. I have
installed the most current Matrox driver and am using the same resolution,
color depth and refresh rate that I was using on my previous PC with the
same Matrox G450 card.

At the same time I switched the video cards, I switch the Logitech mouse
from PS/2 to USB. I can't imagine that would make a difference... would
it?

Are there any setting in the P4P800-E Deluxe BIOS that might be causing
this? I am using the most recent BIOS v.1002.

John

In article , "John Blaustein"
wrote:

Further information....

I now notice that I can "force" the flicker by moving the mouse over a web
page full of links. As the pointer passes quickly over the links, there is
a very subtle flicker that occurs and stops the moment the mouse stops
moving. Any ideas what this is about?

John

Well, looking in the IRQ table, shows the video card has its own
private interrupt signal. So, I cannot make a theory where a USB
interrupt delays video servicing.

First of all, did you uninstall the ATI video card drivers, before
changing video cards ? Then install the Matrox drivers ?

One thing I noticed with my G200 when I was still using it, was
that the latest Matrox drivers, while sporting a lot more
functionality, was also eating considerable system resources.
The driver seemed slower than the first stable one I managed
to find when the card was new, and screen updates were a bit
slower than normal.

Based on that observation, see if you can dig up a driver from
around the time the card was introduced. Maybe it will be
missing OpenGL or something, but it might behave better
in the desktop.

Generally video cards have hardware support for the cursor, and
maybe what you are seeing, is the changing of the pixmap for the
cursor, as it passes over the links. Normally, you would think
this would be changed during the vertical blanking interval, so
the change would be invisible. I wonder if the card simply doesn't
know when it is painting the screen ? I've never heard of
configuration options for 2D operation of a video card, but if
that existed somewhere, it would make interesting reading.

If you have a utility somewhere, check to see what AGP rate the
card is running at. Maybe it is doing AGP 1X (a.k.a PCI mode) ?
Get a copy of Powerstrip from entechtaiwan.com, and use the
taskbar popup menu item "Options" to see what settings the video
card is using. You could also run "dxdiag" from your DirectX
install, to see if all video card features are enabled.

HTH,
Paul



"John Blaustein" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I just assembled a new system:

P4P800-E Deluxe
P4 3.0
2GB RAM
WD 120GB SATA drive
CD-RW/DVD

When I first assembled the system, I put a Diamond ATI Radeon 7000 AGP
video
card in. It worked perfectly. I have just exchanged the 7000 for a
Matrox
G450 AGP card. For some reason, I'm now getting a slight flicker. I have
installed the most current Matrox driver and am using the same resolution,
color depth and refresh rate that I was using on my previous PC with the
same Matrox G450 card.

At the same time I switched the video cards, I switch the Logitech mouse
from PS/2 to USB. I can't imagine that would make a difference... would
it?

Are there any setting in the P4P800-E Deluxe BIOS that might be causing
this? I am using the most recent BIOS v.1002.

John

Paul,

I looked at the Matrox support forum and I see that others are having the
same problem with the G450 and G550. The Matrox tech suggests reducing
hardware acceleration, trying different drivers, turning off
Hyper-Threading, etc., but I tried all those and nothing changed. I looked
at the forum late last night and "gave up," but I'll do some more research
there today.

See comments inline below...

Well, looking in the IRQ table, shows the video card has its own
private interrupt signal. So, I cannot make a theory where a USB
interrupt delays video servicing.

I don't think it's the mouse and USB or PS/2.

First of all, did you uninstall the ATI video card drivers, before
changing video cards ? Then install the Matrox drivers ?

Actually, I never installed the ATI driver. I just used the XP driver that
was installed when I did my fresh XP install. When I was removing the
Radeon card, I removed it from Device Mgr just before turning the PC off.
Then I installed the G450 and powered up.

One thing I noticed with my G200 when I was still using it, was
that the latest Matrox drivers, while sporting a lot more
functionality, was also eating considerable system resources.
The driver seemed slower than the first stable one I managed
to find when the card was new, and screen updates were a bit
slower than normal.

Speed doesn't seem to be the issue.

Based on that observation, see if you can dig up a driver from
around the time the card was introduced. Maybe it will be
missing OpenGL or something, but it might behave better
in the desktop.

I tried the XP driver and it does the same thing. On the Matrox forum,
others tried earlier drivers without success.

Generally video cards have hardware support for the cursor, and
maybe what you are seeing, is the changing of the pixmap for the
cursor, as it passes over the links. Normally, you would think
this would be changed during the vertical blanking interval, so
the change would be invisible. I wonder if the card simply doesn't
know when it is painting the screen ? I've never heard of
configuration options for 2D operation of a video card, but if
that existed somewhere, it would make interesting reading.

If you have a utility somewhere, check to see what AGP rate the
card is running at. Maybe it is doing AGP 1X (a.k.a PCI mode) ?
Get a copy of Powerstrip from entechtaiwan.com, and use the
taskbar popup menu item "Options" to see what settings the video
card is using. You could also run "dxdiag" from your DirectX
install, to see if all video card features are enabled.

OK... I'll do that.

Paul.... I really appreciate all the help you've given me (my thread
"Building my own PC -- hardware advice needed" and others). You give a lot
of your time... thanks so much.

John

Paul...

One solution, perhaps the easiest, is to use the Diamond Stealth S60 (ATI
Radeon 7000) card on my new machine. It worked fine, even with the XP
driver. I do no gaming, so 3D isn't an issue. My use of the PC is
Photoshop, MS Office, Quicken, etc. I had the Matrox G450 for dual monitor
support, but now I don't use that feature. I am using dual monitors, but I
had to install a second PCI card for the second monitor because I use
hardware/software to calibrate and profile the monitor for accurate color
management, and that software won't work unless both monitors have their own
video card. (I have not installed the second card into the new machine yet,
but it worked fine in my old machine.)

I'm not sure the Radeon 7000 is as good a card as the G450, but it may be
fine for my purposes. The G450 worked fine in my old machine -- ASUS
CUV4X-E, P3 1Ghz. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I have to say I was
startled when I realized I had this problem with my new MoBo since the G450
worked so well with the old one.

John

Paul,

All DirectX tests completed without problems and all features on video card
are enabled. Further reading on the Matrox forum suggests this is a Matrox
problem with some ASUS (and other?) motherboards.

John



DXDIAG shows the following:

------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 7/2/2004, 08:52:02
Machine name: JOHN-P4
Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack
1 (2600.xpsp2.030422-1633)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
System Model: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
BIOS: BIOS Date: 02/25/04 11:27:43 Ver: 08.00.09
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 2048MB RAM
Page File: 151MB used, 3792MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0b (4.09.0000.0902)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 5.03.0001.0902 32bit Unicode

------------
DxDiag Notes
------------
DirectX Files Tab: No problems found.
Display Tab 1: No problems found. DirectDraw test results: All tests
were successful. Direct3D 7 test results: The tests were cancelled before
completing. Direct3D 8 test results: The tests were cancelled before
completing. Direct3D 9 test results: The tests were cancelled before
completing.
Sound Tab 1: No problems found.
Music Tab: No problems found.
Input Tab: No problems found.
Network Tab: No problems found. DirectPlay test results: The tests
were cancelled before completing.

--------------------
DirectX Debug Levels
--------------------
Direct3D: 0/4 (n/a)
DirectDraw: 0/4 (retail)
DirectInput: 0/5 (n/a)
DirectMusic: 0/5 (n/a)
DirectPlay: 0/9 (retail)
DirectSound: 0/5 (retail)
DirectShow: 0/6 (retail)

---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: Matrox Millennium G450 DualHead - English
Manufacturer: Matrox Graphics Inc.
Chip type: Matrox G450
DAC type: Integrated, 360 MHz
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_102B&DEV_0525&SUBSYS_0641102B&REV_82
Display Memory: 32.0 MB
Current Mode: 1152 x 864 (32 bit) (85Hz)
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
Driver Name: G400DHD.dll
Driver Version: 6.12.0001.1920 (English)
DDI Version: 7
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
Driver Date/Size: 1/26/2004 13:47:06, 2390144 bytes
WHQL Logo'd: Yes
WHQL Date Stamp: n/a
VDD: n/a
Mini VDD: g400dhm.sys
Mini VDD Date: 1/26/2004 13:48:12, 343552 bytes
Device Identifier: {D7B71ECB-4665-11CF-1B74-402621C2CB35}
Vendor ID: 0x102B
Device ID: 0x0525
SubSys ID: 0x0641102B
Revision ID: 0x0082
Revision ID: 0x0082
Video Accel:
Deinterlace Caps: n/a
Registry: OK
DDraw Status: Enabled
D3D Status: Enabled
AGP Status: Enabled
DDraw Test Result: All tests were successful.
D3D7 Test Result: The tests were cancelled before completing.
D3D8 Test Result: The tests were cancelled before completing.
D3D9 Test Result: The tests were cancelled before completing.

In article , "John Blaustein"
wrote:

Paul,

All DirectX tests completed without problems and all features on video card
are enabled. Further reading on the Matrox forum suggests this is a Matrox
problem with some ASUS (and other?) motherboards.

John



DXDIAG shows the following:
snip

To find some old drivers, I tried the following:

web.archive.org contains snapshots of popular web sites.
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.matrox.com

Step back a bit, like he

http://web.archive.org/web/200208051...www.matrox.com

Then, using the URL for the driver download today, glue that onto the
end of the URL, and end up here. There is a link on this page, for the
5.72 version of the driver for the G450.

http://web.archive.org/web/200208051...ified/home.cfm

Uninstall your current driver and give this a try.

http://www.matrox.com/mga/support/dr...es/w2k_572.cfm

HTH,
Paul

Thanks, Paul.

OK, I've now tried all of the following:

Windows XP Home driver
2kxp_592_006
w2k_582
w2k_572

All drivers produce the flickering!

While I hesitate to do so, I think I will put the Diamond Stealth S60 ATI
Radeon 7000 card back into the new system and use the Matrox card in the old
system. For 2D works -- Photoshop in particular -- the Radeon 7000 may be
just fine. Do you know anything about the Radeon 7000? Do you think it's
adequate for my needs?

If the 7000 isn't adequate, I may need to buy another card. Any suggestions
on a good card that you know works well with the P4P800-E Deluxe? As I
mentioned, I don't need games and heavy-duty 3D video, just excellent
quality 2D.

John


"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article , "John Blaustein"
wrote:

Paul,

All DirectX tests completed without problems and all features on video
card
are enabled. Further reading on the Matrox forum suggests this is a
Matrox
problem with some ASUS (and other?) motherboards.

John



DXDIAG shows the following:
snip

To find some old drivers, I tried the following:

web.archive.org contains snapshots of popular web sites.
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.matrox.com

Step back a bit, like he

http://web.archive.org/web/200208051...www.matrox.com

Then, using the URL for the driver download today, glue that onto the
end of the URL, and end up here. There is a link on this page, for the
5.72 version of the driver for the G450.


http://web.archive.org/web/200208051...ified/home.cfm

Uninstall your current driver and give this a try.

http://www.matrox.com/mga/support/dr...es/w2k_572.cfm

HTH,
Paul

In article , "John Blaustein"
wrote:

Thanks, Paul.

OK, I've now tried all of the following:

Windows XP Home driver
2kxp_592_006
w2k_582
w2k_572

All drivers produce the flickering!

While I hesitate to do so, I think I will put the Diamond Stealth S60 ATI
Radeon 7000 card back into the new system and use the Matrox card in the old
system. For 2D works -- Photoshop in particular -- the Radeon 7000 may be
just fine. Do you know anything about the Radeon 7000? Do you think it's
adequate for my needs?

If the 7000 isn't adequate, I may need to buy another card. Any suggestions
on a good card that you know works well with the P4P800-E Deluxe? As I
mentioned, I don't need games and heavy-duty 3D video, just excellent
quality 2D.

John

Video cards have a 2D and a 3D portion to them. We spend the big bucks
to get enhanced 3D performance, but the 2D part of the cards, for the
most part, hasn't changed in years. In that sense, any modern card with
a working AGP interface is going to work for you. (A PCI video card
might be perceived as too slow at screen updates, when handling large
bitmaps.) As I'm not a dedicated Photoshop user, it would be unfair
for me to suggest a card, as there can be tiny differences between
them that annoy professional users.

If you have a color calibration system and a good CRT monitor, then
you can probably calibrate out any color issues. (Calibrator, as in one
of those devices that you hold up to the CRT, to calibrate the color
response.)

Other than that, video cards have some differences between them, as
to how sharp they are at high resolution. You could try Google on
the name or model number of what you plan on using, combined with the
word "fuzzy", to see if the card you are interested in is a dud
or not. Some cards in fact don't have bad video chips - they have
too much filtering of the output just before it goes to the VGA
connector. Some of those cards can be fixed by removing the filter
caps from the PI filters near the connector. The filters are
distinguishable by the fact there are three color channels, so you
see three groups of identical components near the VGA connector
on the video card. People used to care about this in years past,
and there used to be recipes for removing the caps by snipping
them (yuck!). It is a wonder the video cards weren't damaged by
that.

Too bad the flicker cannot be stopped on your Matrox. Have you
tried disabling all hardware acceleration ? There is a slider to
do that, and maybe with all acceleration disabled, it will stop
flickering.

HTH,
Paul

snip

Paul,

See below...

Video cards have a 2D and a 3D portion to them. We spend the big bucks
to get enhanced 3D performance, but the 2D part of the cards, for the
most part, hasn't changed in years. In that sense, any modern card with
a working AGP interface is going to work for you. (A PCI video card
might be perceived as too slow at screen updates, when handling large
bitmaps.) As I'm not a dedicated Photoshop user, it would be unfair
for me to suggest a card, as there can be tiny differences between
them that annoy professional users.

Yes, I understand that about 3D vs. 2D, which is why I don't see the need
for an expensive card.

I've switched cards -- the Radeon 7000 is back in the new system. No
flicker, needle sharp text and images, immediate redraw, passes all DXDIAG
tests. I'm going to stick with it for a while and see how it goes.

If you have a color calibration system and a good CRT monitor, then
you can probably calibrate out any color issues. (Calibrator, as in one
of those devices that you hold up to the CRT, to calibrate the color
response.)

Yes, I use a color calibration system -- ColorVision's OptiCAL with Spyder
(the device you stick on the monitor to read the color). I use a good Sony
21" monitor. I haven't loaded OptiCAL on the new system yet, but will in
the next few days. I also will install a second video card -- inexpensive
PCI card to run a second monitor for Photoshop use -- you put the image on
the main monitor all the palettes (controls) on the second monitor. It's a
great way to work. (I'm a photographer, so I spend a lot of time using PS.)

I'm assuming OptiCAL will "do its thing" with the Radeon card, but until I
install OptiCAL and run the calibration and profiling software, I won't be
sure the Radeon is the best solution. There is no reason it shouldn't work,
but you know how that goes.

Other than that, video cards have some differences between them, as
to how sharp they are at high resolution. You could try Google on
the name or model number of what you plan on using, combined with the
word "fuzzy", to see if the card you are interested in is a dud
or not. Some cards in fact don't have bad video chips - they have
too much filtering of the output just before it goes to the VGA
connector. Some of those cards can be fixed by removing the filter
caps from the PI filters near the connector. The filters are
distinguishable by the fact there are three color channels, so you
see three groups of identical components near the VGA connector
on the video card. People used to care about this in years past,
and there used to be recipes for removing the caps by snipping
them (yuck!). It is a wonder the video cards weren't damaged by
that.

I'm not inclined to start snipping things off of video cards, but I'll have
a look!

Too bad the flicker cannot be stopped on your Matrox. Have you
tried disabling all hardware acceleration ? There is a slider to
do that, and maybe with all acceleration disabled, it will stop
flickering.

Yes, I tried disabling hardware acceleration, disabling hyper-threading,
trying different resolutions and refresh rates, but nothing made the flicker
go away. One interesting thing is a fellow-photographer I met on the
Photoshop newsgroup has the same mobo as I do and he uses a Matrox G550
(mine is the G450, but virtually identical), and he doesn't have the
flicker. Go figure. He e-mailed me that he has a G450 he's not using and
offered to send it to me just to test. Even though the Radeon is working
now, I may have him send the card. I sure would like to find out that my
G450 is defective, rather than conclude that there is something wrong with
my mobo. It's all perplexing since the G450 should work just fine with the
P4P. Oh well.

In the installation guide for the Radeon card, it says that prior to
installing the card, the AGP aperture size should be set to 1/4 the size of
the memory on the card. I found the AGP aperture setting in BIOS and it's
at 64. I left it there and the Radeon is working fine. I'm curious what
that setting does. Do you know? The Radeon has 32MB on it, so that would
suggest I set the AGP aperture to 8MB. What do you think?

John