Laptop Performance Revelation

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.

Intel CPUs come with built in thermal sensing and self throttle when too
hot. Some small format laptops simply can not EVER run at full rated CPU
speed for more than short bursts in a room at normal temperature, 20C.
Their design includes insufficient thermal dissipation for continuous
saturated CPU usage. Such continuous CPU usage is seen in backups using
data compression and many other types of CPU intensive processing like voice
recognition, some games, some video processing and Matlab. A Toshiba 3500
TabletPC I've been studying can at best run continuously at about 600
MHz(spec is 1.33GHz Pentium M) in a 25C room. A Sony X505 contains a very
obfuscated disclaimer regarding CPU speed in its spec sheet on its website
which is this issue. Similar obfuscated disclaimers about CPU speed do
appear in both the 3500 and M200 spec sheets at Toshiba's website.

This is not a battery saving issue where CPU throttling is a designed in
positive advertised feature/advanatge. This is all about when the laptop is
AC powered and one ASSUMES that the laptop provides full performance. It
does NOT!

One can see this behavior using a program like MobileMeter which will show
the CPU temperature jumping to a maximum like 88C and then the CPU speed
plummets.
http://dssc3031.ece.cmu.edu/~tamaru/...erreadme-e.htm
download:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconVa...310/mm0310.zip

Large format laptops like the Sony K27 and Gateway M505 have sufficient
cooling and will run at full rated CPU speed continuously.

A small drop is not what's seen but a huge drop. Try on say a Sony X505 or
a Toshiba Tablet doing a backup with full SW compression. I find that it
runs a 1/2-1/4 the speed of the same CPU speed system of a large format
laptop or desktop.

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:07:36 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
wrote:

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.

Intel CPUs come with built in thermal sensing and self throttle when too
hot. Some small format laptops simply can not EVER run at full rated CPU
speed for more than short bursts in a room at normal temperature, 20C.
Their design includes insufficient thermal dissipation for continuous
saturated CPU usage. Such continuous CPU usage is seen in backups using
data compression and many other types of CPU intensive processing like voice
recognition, some games, some video processing and Matlab. A Toshiba 3500
TabletPC I've been studying can at best run continuously at about 600
MHz(spec is 1.33GHz Pentium M) in a 25C room. A Sony X505 contains a very
obfuscated disclaimer regarding CPU speed in its spec sheet on its website
which is this issue. Similar obfuscated disclaimers about CPU speed do
appear in both the 3500 and M200 spec sheets at Toshiba's website.

This is not a battery saving issue where CPU throttling is a designed in
positive advertised feature/advanatge. This is all about when the laptop is
AC powered and one ASSUMES that the laptop provides full performance. It
does NOT!

One can see this behavior using a program like MobileMeter which will show
the CPU temperature jumping to a maximum like 88C and then the CPU speed
plummets.
http://dssc3031.ece.cmu.edu/~tamaru/...erreadme-e.htm
download:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconVa...310/mm0310.zip

Large format laptops like the Sony K27 and Gateway M505 have sufficient
cooling and will run at full rated CPU speed continuously.

A small drop is not what's seen but a huge drop. Try on say a Sony X505 or
a Toshiba Tablet doing a backup with full SW compression. I find that it
runs a 1/2-1/4 the speed of the same CPU speed system of a large format
laptop or desktop.

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

Sure, it's common knowledge.

Consider for a moment, that desktop systems have relatively
huge heatsinks and quite a bit of airflow... if that weren't
necessary, why would anyone do it? Granted, some people DO
go overboard on cooling, but let's be realistic, a couple
concealed heat spreaders and a couple of tiny 30-40mm fans
can't come near removing as much heat as a single 80mm fan.

So basically, it has the CPU they claim, and due to consumer
demand, is the small size that it is, and does as well as
possible... they don't guarantee it can run at full load for
an particular period of time do they? It seems like a
ripoff on the surface, but it isn't really, that's all the
industry can do ATM unless you want something much more
expensive or with gaping holes and fans everywhere.

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:07:36 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
wrote:

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.

Intel CPUs come with built in thermal sensing and self throttle when too
hot. Some small format laptops simply can not EVER run at full rated CPU
speed for more than short bursts in a room at normal temperature, 20C.
Their design includes insufficient thermal dissipation for continuous
saturated CPU usage. Such continuous CPU usage is seen in backups using
data compression and many other types of CPU intensive processing like
voice
recognition, some games, some video processing and Matlab. A Toshiba
3500
TabletPC I've been studying can at best run continuously at about 600
MHz(spec is 1.33GHz Pentium M) in a 25C room. A Sony X505 contains a
very
obfuscated disclaimer regarding CPU speed in its spec sheet on its
website
which is this issue. Similar obfuscated disclaimers about CPU speed do
appear in both the 3500 and M200 spec sheets at Toshiba's website.

This is not a battery saving issue where CPU throttling is a designed in
positive advertised feature/advanatge. This is all about when the laptop
is
AC powered and one ASSUMES that the laptop provides full performance. It
does NOT!

One can see this behavior using a program like MobileMeter which will
show
the CPU temperature jumping to a maximum like 88C and then the CPU speed
plummets.
http://dssc3031.ece.cmu.edu/~tamaru/...erreadme-e.htm
download:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconVa.../0310/mm0310.z
ip

Large format laptops like the Sony K27 and Gateway M505 have sufficient
cooling and will run at full rated CPU speed continuously.

A small drop is not what's seen but a huge drop. Try on say a Sony X505
or
a Toshiba Tablet doing a backup with full SW compression. I find that it
runs a 1/2-1/4 the speed of the same CPU speed system of a large format
laptop or desktop.

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

Sure, it's common knowledge.

Consider for a moment, that desktop systems have relatively
huge heatsinks and quite a bit of airflow... if that weren't
necessary, why would anyone do it? Granted, some people DO
go overboard on cooling, but let's be realistic, a couple
concealed heat spreaders and a couple of tiny 30-40mm fans
can't come near removing as much heat as a single 80mm fan.

So basically, it has the CPU they claim, and due to consumer
demand, is the small size that it is, and does as well as
possible... they don't guarantee it can run at full load for
an particular period of time do they?

YES, that's assumed throughout the industry and is so stated in the Intel
Pentium M spec sheet. Large format laptops will run at full CPU speed
continuously. It's just the small format/ultracompacts....

It seems like a
ripoff on the surface,

It is a ripoff when it's not clearly stated.

but it isn't really, that's all the
industry can do ATM unless you want something much more
expensive or with gaping holes and fans everywhere.

Agreed but they have to tell the consumer.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:53:05 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
wrote:


So basically, it has the CPU they claim, and due to consumer
demand, is the small size that it is, and does as well as
possible... they don't guarantee it can run at full load for
an particular period of time do they?

YES, that's assumed throughout the industry and is so stated in the Intel
Pentium M spec sheet. Large format laptops will run at full CPU speed
continuously. It's just the small format/ultracompacts....

I would tend to disagree, there have been past reports of
them slowing down and it seemed to be a general consensus at
the time that the thermal-throttling of P4 would allow both
notebook and desktop builder to fudge on cooling a bit.


It seems like a
ripoff on the surface,

It is a ripoff when it's not clearly stated.

Yes, no, maybe... pretty often products only mention the
features, not the downsides. Do all car manuals mention
that even though the speedometer may go to 100, that it
can't be constantly driven at full throttle?



but it isn't really, that's all the
industry can do ATM unless you want something much more
expensive or with gaping holes and fans everywhere.

Agreed but they have to tell the consumer.


Agreed

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:53:05 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
wrote:


So basically, it has the CPU they claim, and due to consumer
demand, is the small size that it is, and does as well as
possible... they don't guarantee it can run at full load for
an particular period of time do they?

YES, that's assumed throughout the industry and is so stated in the
Intel
Pentium M spec sheet. Large format laptops will run at full CPU speed
continuously. It's just the small format/ultracompacts....

I would tend to disagree, there have been past reports of
them slowing down and it seemed to be a general consensus at
the time that the thermal-throttling of P4 would allow both
notebook and desktop builder to fudge on cooling a bit.

It's a reasonable Intel implemented safety valve. HOWEVER when it's used in
the design and is sold to the consumer as a Pentium M 1.3GHz but will only
run continuously like a PIII 500 then that's fraud!

It seems like a
ripoff on the surface,

It is a ripoff when it's not clearly stated.

Yes, no, maybe... pretty often products only mention the
features, not the downsides.

Not in this fashion. This is the sort of thing that AGs and consumer
protection folks go right on after.

Does the salesman tell the buyer of that super sleek fancy small Sony X505
that costs $1000 more than a Sony K27...say...oh by the way for that $1000
you'll get a laptop that wont run at full speed like the K27 but only at 1/2
speed under continuous load?

Do all car manuals mention
that even though the speedometer may go to 100, that it
can't be constantly driven at full throttle?

Not, relevant.

but it isn't really, that's all the
industry can do ATM unless you want something much more
expensive or with gaping holes and fans everywhere.

Agreed but they have to tell the consumer.


Agreed

THAT'S the point. It's a clear design trade-off. One that some folks may
find very desirable. But they have to make that trade-off CLEAR and obvious
and they are NOT!

Ron Reaugh wrote:

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.

Hidden is the correct term. I had it with an IBM Thinkpad T41p I bough in
April this year. This nice notebook had an P-M 1.7GHz and an ATI FireGL T2
128MB gfx adapter. I notced that under full CPU load (i.e. games or
professional applications) the temperature increased fastly to ~87 degree C,
and the system began to throttle. The funny thing was that when I removed
the DVD drive the temperature decreased around 10 degrees, and no
throtteling occured. The problem seemed to be the small heatsink that covers
both CPU and gfx chip (GPU), and obvioulsy didn't get enough fresh air to
provide sufficient cooling.

I had some discussions with IBM about this and the under the hand confirmed
that this is a known problem, that they currently have no solution, and that
I have to live with that. I asked them what I should do with an 3000EUR
highend notebook that's advertised as "mobile workstation" and that's
unuseable for professional applications. They said I should go for the R51p
which has the same mainboard and CPU but a bigger case. I asked if that
means they will exchange my T41p for the R51p, and the IBM person said "No,
You have to buy the R51p". I answered "fine, so I'll sell my T41p, and get a
new laptop. But the new one for sure doesn't carry the IBM label any more".

I still have my old notebook, an IBM Thinkpad A31. With its new 2.2GHz P4-M
CPU it gets around 47-52 degree C under full load...

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

After this problem I tested some notebooks under heavy load. The Dell I8600
doesn't have this problem, the HP nx7010, nc8000, nc800, and nw8000 also
don't have this problem, too. All IBM T41p and T42p I found show the
throtteling problem.

Benjamin

"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
...
Ron Reaugh wrote:

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.

Hidden is the correct term. I had it with an IBM Thinkpad T41p I bough in
April this year. This nice notebook had an P-M 1.7GHz and an ATI FireGL T2
128MB gfx adapter. I notced that under full CPU load (i.e. games or
professional applications) the temperature increased fastly to ~87 degree
C,
and the system began to throttle.

Precisely what I've have observed.

The funny thing was that when I removed
the DVD drive the temperature decreased around 10 degrees, and no
throtteling occured. The problem seemed to be the small heatsink that
covers
both CPU and gfx chip (GPU), and obvioulsy didn't get enough fresh air to
provide sufficient cooling.

I had some discussions with IBM about this and the under the hand
confirmed
that this is a known problem, that they currently have no solution, and
that
I have to live with that.

They designed it that way and they are not telling consumers. That's fraud.

I asked them what I should do with an 3000EUR
highend notebook that's advertised as "mobile workstation"

Does it have a VGA connector too which would also imply that it's a desktop
replacement? It's NOT!

and that's
unuseable for professional applications.

Precisely, Intel has covered itself by including right in its Pentium M
spec sheet that the user community expects continuous full performance when
AC powered.

They said I should go for the R51p
which has the same mainboard and CPU but a bigger case.

Larger format laptops I've checked seem NOT to suffer from this.

I asked if that
means they will exchange my T41p for the R51p, and the IBM person said
"No,
You have to buy the R51p". I answered "fine, so I'll sell my T41p, and get
a
new laptop. But the new one for sure doesn't carry the IBM label any
more".

I'm afraid they are all doin this in ultracompacts...you know the laws of
physics and all.

I still have my old notebook, an IBM Thinkpad A31. With its new 2.2GHz
P4-M
CPU it gets around 47-52 degree C under full load...

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

After this problem I tested some notebooks under heavy load. The Dell
I8600
doesn't have this problem, the HP nx7010, nc8000, nc800, and nw8000 also

Are all the above large format laptops?

don't have this problem, too. All IBM T41p and T42p I found show the
throtteling problem.

Thanks, I'l add the T41p and T42p to this list of offenders.

The industry has to start telling folks before some AG gets hold of this.

I'm a staunch industry supporter and that is why this kind of thing must be
stomped out immediately!

Anyone know about the Dell Latitude X300?

NOTE that I strongly support these neat ultracompacts and TabletPCs as they
have a great place in the industry but THEY MUST NOT BE SOLD AS DESKTOP
REPLACEMENTS as they now are. That's fraud!

Benjamin