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Power supply EXPLOSION



 
 
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  #61  
Old July 22nd 04, 06:37 PM
kony
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:09:09 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:

snip

Panaflo eh? I'll go for them then. ANY panaflo? Or do any panaflo contain the RPM regulation?


None of the sizes suitable for a PC have the regulation.
Typical part numbers for Panaflos are as follows:

FBA08A12L

FBA - Axial flow, Fluid (proprietary sleeve) hydrowave bearing
08 - the width
A - 25mm thick (thickest at 80mm width, larger 12cm dia. sizes
have a "G", 38mm width option)

12 - 12V results in RRM on spec sheet, which for this example
would be 1900 RPM due to following "L":

L - Low speed. Medium is well suited for higher heat systems
with variable speed control power supply usage, but is not
silent.


It's strange how some people have VERY noisy PCs, and when I ask them how they put up with the noise, they say "what noise?" By bery noisy, I mean 3 full speed noisy case fans and also noisy processor fan(s).


They were thrilled to have the performance boost then got used to
it. As they say "you can never go back", once they own a quiet
PC they're much less likely to settle for the noise again, unless
there is again a substantial performance increase to preoccupy
them.



I'll get there :-) The main problem I think at the moment is the RAM. Even with large heatsinks it is a little hot for my liking with just convection (not even overclocking it - in fact it is still the same temperature when UNDERclocking it?!?)


That sounds a bit unusual unless you're overclocking it, last
PC3200 memory I touch-tested felt cool even outside a case with
(practically) zero airflow. Unless you've deliberately taken
steps to increase the memory voltage you might see if the bios
can adjust that down a notch or two. On the other hand, having
the heatsinks hot is a good sign, of fair heat transfer.

  #62  
Old July 22nd 04, 06:42 PM
Peter Hucker
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:19:20 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:02:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


Go ahead, I'd like more details of how they did it. Keep in mind
that I did not speculate on their specific implementation beyond
it's limited amperage rating, rather your implementation which
was a hack job.


You stated that a power supply without a fan would not last 3 years.


No, I did not, or at least I didn't intend to...

My argument was that a 3 year warranty isn't a guarantee that it
will work for 3 years, that warranties are a marketing tool the
manufacturer would just as soon do away with if possible, but
given some bean counter with an idea that additional profit seen
from this "feature" will outweigh expense, a warranty is
provided.


The bean counter is correct. You won't catch me buying Fujitsu disks, which give no warranty apart from the statutory 1 year.

The truth about warranty replacement is that once a
manufacturer sets up a manufactuering line, they produce a given
number and what they don't sell are shelved for a period to serve
as warranty replacements. There is very little cost associated
with this, all of the R&D, parts purchasing, manufacturing, etc,
is done and they're just sitting around. The higher cost of the
unit previously linked (I am confident it's quite high priced
compared to other name brand PSU of same amperage specs) is way
more than enough to offset warranty replacement costs.


I'm assuming thsat the extra cost also includes better/different/more components so that the non-sinked components can tolerate no draught. And also of course it's a smaller market.


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  #63  
Old July 22nd 04, 06:49 PM
Peter Hucker
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:37:19 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:09:09 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:

snip

Panaflo eh? I'll go for them then. ANY panaflo? Or do any panaflo contain the RPM regulation?


None of the sizes suitable for a PC have the regulation.
Typical part numbers for Panaflos are as follows:

FBA08A12L

FBA - Axial flow, Fluid (proprietary sleeve) hydrowave bearing
08 - the width
A - 25mm thick (thickest at 80mm width, larger 12cm dia. sizes
have a "G", 38mm width option)

12 - 12V results in RRM on spec sheet, which for this example
would be 1900 RPM due to following "L":

L - Low speed. Medium is well suited for higher heat systems
with variable speed control power supply usage, but is not
silent.


Noted.

It's strange how some people have VERY noisy PCs, and when I ask them how they put up with the noise, they say "what noise?" By bery noisy, I mean 3 full speed noisy case fans and also noisy processor fan(s).


They were thrilled to have the performance boost then got used to
it. As they say "you can never go back", once they own a quiet
PC they're much less likely to settle for the noise again, unless
there is again a substantial performance increase to preoccupy
them.


But I'm one of those people who hates continuous noise. A road droning all day. An air conditioner. I don't mind noises that aren't 24/7 like a noisy old car, a cheap washing machine, etc. I just don't understand how people can tolerate noise that never stops.

I'll get there :-) The main problem I think at the moment is the RAM. Even with large heatsinks it is a little hot for my liking with just convection (not even overclocking it - in fact it is still the same temperature when UNDERclocking it?!?)


That sounds a bit unusual unless you're overclocking it, last
PC3200 memory I touch-tested felt cool even outside a case with
(practically) zero airflow. Unless you've deliberately taken
steps to increase the memory voltage you might see if the bios
can adjust that down a notch or two. On the other hand, having
the heatsinks hot is a good sign, of fair heat transfer.


With no heatsinks, touching a chip with my finger was too hot in about 1 second. With the heatsinks it's just cool enough to keep my finger on permanently (which someone told me indicates about 70C). There is no voltage adjustment on this BIOS unfortunately, first things I tried (well after underclocking). There is no forced airflow, but there is plenty free airspace around them and they are this temp even with the cover off the case. Nothing nearby heating the surrounding air. I may consider a little panaflow above them if I can't hear it at all. Not sure what dB level I would notice - do you have some kind of guide as to what its audible at what distance?


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  #64  
Old July 22nd 04, 07:42 PM
Ed Light
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Try the forum at
http://silentpcreview.com/


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Thanks, robots.


  #65  
Old July 22nd 04, 08:22 PM
kony
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:49:37 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


With no heatsinks, touching a chip with my finger was too hot in about 1 second. With the heatsinks it's just cool enough to keep my finger on permanently (which someone told me indicates about 70C). There is no voltage adjustment on this BIOS unfortunately, first things I tried (well after underclocking). There is no forced airflow, but there is plenty free airspace around them and they are this temp even with the cover off the case. Nothing nearby heating the surrounding air. I may consider a little panaflow above them if I can't hear it at all. Not sure what dB level I would notice - do you have some kind of guide as to what its audible at what distance?


Can depend on background noise, the noise isolation the case
provides, and even the sensativity you have to particular
frequencies. In general it's easiest to just spec a fan (like a
Panaflo) that has triple the rate and spec'd 12V, planning to
undervolt it. Ideally you can just run the fan from 5V rail and
need not bother with other voltage reduction methods. For memory
i'd expect placement, allowance for size of fan to be the most
critical issue. One trick I seldom see done is applying
threadlock to a couple of studs and placing then in the stud near
the top of the memory slots and mounting the fan on top. It can
still be wobbly though, I often fab custom aluminum brackets for
spot-cooling, when time allows. More direct answer to your
question would be to try keeping it below 15dB but don't use a
ball-bearing fan unless the environmental temp demands it
(particularly it can be needed for high-performance systems' PSU
exhaust).
  #66  
Old July 22nd 04, 08:45 PM
Peter Hucker
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:22:10 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:49:37 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


With no heatsinks, touching a chip with my finger was too hot in about 1 second. With the heatsinks it's just cool enough to keep my finger on permanently (which someone told me indicates about 70C). There is no voltage adjustment on this BIOS unfortunately, first things I tried (well after underclocking). There is no forced airflow, but there is plenty free airspace around them and they are this temp even with the cover off the case. Nothing nearby heating the surrounding air. I may consider a little panaflow above them if I can't hear it at all. Not sure what dB level I would notice - do you have some kind of guide as to what its audible at what distance?


Can depend on background noise, the noise isolation the case
provides, and even the sensativity you have to particular
frequencies. In general it's easiest to just spec a fan (like a
Panaflo) that has triple the rate and spec'd 12V, planning to
undervolt it. Ideally you can just run the fan from 5V rail and
need not bother with other voltage reduction methods. For memory
i'd expect placement, allowance for size of fan to be the most
critical issue. One trick I seldom see done is applying
threadlock to a couple of studs and placing then in the stud near
the top of the memory slots and mounting the fan on top. It can
still be wobbly though, I often fab custom aluminum brackets for
spot-cooling, when time allows. More direct answer to your
question would be to try keeping it below 15dB but don't use a
ball-bearing fan unless the environmental temp demands it
(particularly it can be needed for high-performance systems' PSU
exhaust).


Conveniently, there are two fan mounts on the front of the case which would make air blow streaight across the graphics cards from one fan and straight across the memory then the motherboard power supply form the 2nd fan.



--
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93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
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  #67  
Old July 22nd 04, 09:02 PM
Franc Zabkar
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:38:24 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:01:30 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:


Hopefully this temporary setback will not deter you from your fine
pioneering work. See you at the Darwin Awards.


Darwin? You mean by electrocution? 10 eclectric shocks has not affected me in any way whatsoever! MEEEEEP!!!


OK, I confess. I've had several shocking experiences, too, although in
my case all but one were due to carelessness. I don't consider myself
immune, though. :-) However, I have heard of an electrician in the
navy who used to locate fused circuits by running two fingers down a
bank of fuses until he felt a bite. And then there's my former
employer who liked to demonstrate his faith in a TV's protection
circuits by holding on to the 25kV anode as he powered on the set.
AFAIK he's still with us.


- Franc Zabkar
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  #68  
Old July 22nd 04, 09:02 PM
Franc Zabkar
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:04:54 GMT, "rstlne"
put finger to keyboard and composed:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:01 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote:

Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side

of
the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is
absorbed.

... and your system failed, didn't it?
So what if other parts haven't failed YET?
There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
single part has failed.


His Cooling didnt fail, His PSU fail'd..


Did he not suggest it failed because it overheated?
What would you call that if not a failure to cool it?


The failure he show'd was not down to undercooling (You can see the parts
that went, they wouldnt have been the first parts to go)


I agree. The LM339's failure is consistent with an overvoltage
condition. I suspect there was a water leak, or a failure in the
transformer insulation.

The LM339A datasheet is he
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/2159.pdf

The device is spec'd for 36V, 1.5W, 70 degC ambient, and 150 degC
junction temperature.



- Franc Zabkar
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  #69  
Old July 22nd 04, 09:10 PM
Peter Hucker
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On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:02:25 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:38:24 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:01:30 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:


Hopefully this temporary setback will not deter you from your fine
pioneering work. See you at the Darwin Awards.


Darwin? You mean by electrocution? 10 eclectric shocks has not affected me in any way whatsoever! MEEEEEP!!!


OK, I confess. I've had several shocking experiences, too, although in
my case all but one were due to carelessness.


Mine were carelessness, other people's carelessness, and a faulty piece of equipment (a reverse wired UPS)

I don't consider myself immune, though. :-)
However, I have heard of an electrician in the
navy who used to locate fused circuits by running two fingers down a
bank of fuses until he felt a bite.


Not too bad as the current is limited by the appliances. Mind you on a big ship.....

And then there's my former
employer who liked to demonstrate his faith in a TV's protection
circuits by holding on to the 25kV anode as he powered on the set.
AFAIK he's still with us.


I didn't know they had protection circuits for that - is that to prevent the flyback from exploding in case of a short?

Did he feeel anything or did it take a bit to cut out?

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  #70  
Old July 23rd 04, 03:39 AM
David Maynard
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kony wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:02:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:



Go ahead, I'd like more details of how they did it. Keep in mind
that I did not speculate on their specific implementation beyond
it's limited amperage rating, rather your implementation which
was a hack job.


You stated that a power supply without a fan would not last 3 years.



No, I did not, or at least I didn't intend to...

My argument was that a 3 year warranty isn't a guarantee that it
will work for 3 years, that warranties are a marketing tool


Well, the implication you seem to be trying to make that a 'marketing tool'
is an otherwise 'useless' thing with no purpose but to 'sell' misstates the
case. 'Everything', features, cost, and yes, warranty, is a 'marketing
tool' in that people don't buy a product for 'nothing'. These things all
have a perceived 'value', and that is what a company is 'selling'.

the
manufacturer would just as soon do away with if possible,


Which flies in the face of your subsequent assertion below that it is of
"very little cost." Manufacturers generally love 'near free' marketing tools.

But again, the way you put it gives a distorted impression. Companies sell
perceived 'value' and cost, from whatever source, eats away at that. They'd
"just as soon do away with" advertising costs, if they could sell just as
much without it. And they'd "just as soon do away with" manufacturing
costs, if the products would just magically appear on their own. And they'd
"just as soon do away with" R&D, if they could sell the same thing forever.

Problem is, all those things, and more, are necessary to do business, stay
in business, and sell product. As is a reliable product and a competitive
warranty.

but
given some bean counter with an idea that additional profit seen
from this "feature" will outweigh expense, a warranty is
provided.


'Bean counters' don't work that way. They see cost, add it up, don't like
it. 'Benefit' to a cost is someone else's dream.

In all fairness to 'bean counters', they don't really 'mind' cost either as
they don't have much visibility into the 'reasons'. It's when management
comes in goes "why the hell aren't we making money on this thing?" and,
since their job is adding numbers, they show where the costs are. So:

Part procurement: "Can't you get these part cheaper?"
Engineering: "Can't you design it with less cost?"
Manufacturing" "Can't you make these things more efficiently?"

"And why the hell are we spending so much on warranty replacement?"

Which can come from a lot of places: bad design, cheap parts, manufacturing
quality problems, unrealistic specifications, etc.

The truth about warranty replacement is that once a
manufacturer sets up a manufactuering line, they produce a given
number and what they don't sell are shelved for a period to serve
as warranty replacements.


True, if they have done a good job and have a decent handle on what infant
mortality rate to expect. All of which, the manufacturing, testing, and
stocking costs money, not to mention tracking purchases and the warrantee
period, servicing the requests, shipping, disposal, etc.

There is very little cost associated
with this,


Simply not true, even from simply the direct cost aspect. Throw in
reputation and the "who'd buy this piece of junk" potential company killer
and it's a quite serious matter.

all of the R&D,


Which can only be amortized over SALES where a profit is made. Warranty
replacements amortize nothing and are a cost.

parts purchasing, manufacturing, etc,
is done and they're just sitting around.


It costs just as much to make the ones 'lying around' as it does the ones
being sold to make profit, except they generate no revenue and, instead,
eat up costs for the stocking, before you even get to the cost of the
actual warranty replacement.

The higher cost of the
unit previously linked (I am confident it's quite high priced
compared to other name brand PSU of same amperage specs) is way
more than enough to offset warranty replacement costs.


One certainly hopes so or else you have a seriously flawed business model.


 




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