Power supply EXPLOSION

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
but so are many generic psu.
Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
(hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
"could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).

Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.

That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.


Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
same true wattage.

I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!

.... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
someone else might.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:42:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


Water cooler has no pump?
If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
completely silent.

As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!

Fans can be too.


Fans can also be inaudible,

Never ever found one!

Of course not, since you jumped to conclusions instead of
pursuing it. People do it all the time, there are reviews and
recommendations all over the web, try a Google search.


and while
inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
meant to use fans.

So what?

So you wanted to use it as an example, when the whole reason it's
fanless is that they designed it from ground up to be that way.
Note that the had to reengineer the whole thing and yet they
didn't reuse that work in ALL their other designs, so apparently
it's not such a universal solution that it should be used even on
systems they spec, let alone one that starts out designed for
active cooling but merely a water block strapped onto 4
components.

If you like your failed system, great.
Many people have silent fan-cooled systems, whether you accept
this or not.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:59:43 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.

Don't be disheartened. Truly great inventors were often thought of as
crackpots by their peers.

It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the airflow they expected?

To work around the lack of suitable mounting points, you could install
a supplementary temperature controlled sprinkler system.

Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's autorebuilding it in the background.

http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail

Hopefully this temporary setback will not deter you from your fine
pioneering work. See you at the Darwin Awards.


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:11:09 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:33:29 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:37:51 GMT, kony wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
supply than just keeping the regulators cool.

The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.

What is irritating about a fan you can't hear?

There is no such thing.


You mean you haven't hear one... which is the whole point.
Plenty of people do it, there are even articles and websites
devoted to it. Generally where many people fail is to simply
buy a "low" RPM fan instead of using fan controller and using
MORE fans so that each only needs be slightly higher RPM than
minimal value to spin up at all,

I have actually tried many fans including several called silent, and I use a controller to slow them right down to the slowest that they can start at. But not one is inaudible.

or they use resistors which
limit current, resulting in higher voltage during operation,
rather than other methods. It is not very difficult to have a
hard drive as the only audible part in a system, provided this
was the plan all along and suitable case was chosen or modified
towards this end.

Getting there!

Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan
cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case
scenarios with water pumps.

I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I
have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that
have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that.
Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card
needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise
reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained.
First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock
fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA.

Mine have Zalman passive heatsinks - the ones with the huge copper fins.

Fancy but they decrease lifespan of video card for same reason as
with power supply, that not only the highest heat part(s) needs
airflow. Reducing CPU/GPU/Chipset temps is fine for short-term
stability but the long-term stress takes it's toll.

Some of them came with memory sinks too, but as the memory on these cards (Radeon 9200s) is nowhere near hot, I didn't bother getting those.

Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked,
water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates
as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst),

Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is absorbed.

... and your system failed, didn't it?

Only the PSU.

So what if other parts haven't failed YET?

Nowt else is hot. I checked. However I did not feel like checking a PSU insides with my finger!

There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
single part has failed.

Not even a fan? Big cause of problems where I worked - fan fails, something overheats.

then
either giant passive radiator is used

No problem, hiden away behind my desk in an otherwise unusable space.

Excactly where you don't want to put it since ambient airflow is
more important for a passive radiator.

It's not that hidden away, my desk is away from the wall a small amount as the monitor CRTs stick off the edge. And the back plinth of the desk (the "modesty" bit I think they call it) is not at the far back of the desk, so there is a lot of air round the radiator. It's no hotter there than when I had it out in the middle of the room testing.

or fan is still needed on radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow.

Nah, that's happy with convection.

You would like to think so but all the evidence is to the
contrary.

The evidence is in my finger.

As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you
have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there
is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but
temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan
degradation (capacitors).

The only things that are hot are the 2 CPUs (watercooled), the northbridge (watercooled), the memory (large passive heatsink), and the graphics cards (large passive heatsinks).

You still don't get it. The entire system has a higher ambient
temp due to your (lack of) airflow. It is not only the GPU,
memory, CPU, and northbridge that need cooling. Other parts
don't need nearly as much, but the need is still there when
they're all enclosed in a fanless system.

They're not enclosed. The tower case is in it's side (better water flow) and has many vents on the side (now top) panel. Convection - the original cooling designed by mother nature!


--
*****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:18:40 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
but so are many generic psu.
Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
(hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
"could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).

Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.

That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.

So I use a noisy cheap one while I wait.

Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
same true wattage.

I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!

... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
someone else might.

I don't really like wasting things, but they are selling it, so I am assuming that Thermaltake et al are not charletons. Perhaps I shall forward this conversation to them and see what they think of you.


--
*****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

begin

If you have Outhouse Distress, this won't work.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:24:34 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:42:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


Water cooler has no pump?
If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
completely silent.

As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!

Fans can be too.

I've yet to find one. Which particular model did you use, and using what model of fan controller?

Fans can also be inaudible,

Never ever found one!

Of course not, since you jumped to conclusions instead of
pursuing it. People do it all the time, there are reviews and
recommendations all over the web, try a Google search.

I have. It's a maze. There are articles everywhere, and what many call silent are not.

and while
inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
meant to use fans.

So what?

So you wanted to use it as an example, when the whole reason it's
fanless is that they designed it from ground up to be that way.
Note that the had to reengineer the whole thing

Reengineering is different from moifying in what way?

and yet they didn't reuse that work in ALL their other designs, so apparently
it's not such a universal solution that it should be used even on
systems they spec, let alone one that starts out designed for
active cooling but merely a water block strapped onto 4
components.

Apple are reknowned for changing design for the sake of it, to appeal to fashion victims instead of technically minded people.


--
*****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

"One dies in Istanbul suicide attack"

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:01:30 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:59:43 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.

Don't be disheartened. Truly great inventors were often thought of as
crackpots by their peers.

It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the airflow they expected?

To work around the lack of suitable mounting points, you could install
a supplementary temperature controlled sprinkler system.

ROTFPMSL! Or fill it with a non-electrically conductive liquid.

Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's autorebuilding it in the background.

http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail

Hopefully this temporary setback will not deter you from your fine
pioneering work. See you at the Darwin Awards.

Darwin? You mean by electrocution? 10 eclectric shocks has not affected me in any way whatsoever! MEEEEEP!!!



--
*****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of
the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is
absorbed.

... and your system failed, didn't it?
So what if other parts haven't failed YET?
There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
single part has failed.


His Cooling didnt fail, His PSU fail'd..
This is the most common failure that there is in HomePC's..
in fact I would say that when everything is done correctly in electronics
that many times a SMPS is probably the most common failure of anything..

I see your point, and I see his point also..
He SHOULD be able to run a fanless system to be honest..
The Motherboard & Psu shouldnt need fans past the obvious spots..
Caps, Transformers, and voltage comparitors shouldnt need air going over
them..

There are passive motherboards out there..
My wireless router doesnt have fans in it, nor does any of my digital
receivers, or my home dvd player.

The argument that a system cant run fanless is not correct..

rstlne wrote:

Water cooler has no pump?
If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
meant to use fans.


Traditional home PC's were not made with "fans" in mind..

Well, yes they were, at least from ATX on (I just haven't rechecked AT).
Just as the thermal design is a significant part of the BTX form factor.

Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..

Wrong place to look. They conform to the ATX form factor so there is no
need for them to repeat it, nor is that part 'their job'.

Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.


Sorry, but there are nice new fanless psu's out..
The problem is they dont have a fan, so they cant be ATX spec supplys (cause
the atx specifications require that there is a fan in the system)..
yes there are nice new fanless psu's out.. you just need to open your eyes.