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setting up SATA nonRAID pair of drives



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 8th 04, 11:01 PM
MikeSp
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default setting up SATA nonRAID pair of drives

After thoroughly reading the thread about RAID drives, it got me to thinking
that, for my REAL needs (and not psychological ones), that my RAID 0
configuration of Raptors really is not necessary and offers me little
advantage. Since I will need to remove the partition anyway to do a virgin
install after spending a zillion hours chasing a conflict between Norton
Systemworks (NAV) 2004 and my Audigy 2ZS sound card software as well as a
conflict with Roxio Easy Media Creator causing Windows Installer to attempt
to install DAO.msi every time Roxio 7 is started), I have tweaked the
registry and installed and uninstalled and reinstalled and patched until my
XP registry is less than perfect (I wonder if many people know how many
entries Norton puts into the registry and are there even when it is
uninstalled?) Thus, although this new build is running fine and there are
no crashes, I plan to set up a virgin install of XP-Pro (leaving out Norton
software!!!!) and am wondering how to do so with both SATA drives connected
to the South bridge Intel chipset (controller) on my P4C800E-D--I would want
one drive for programs and the other one for data storage. Since these
drives are not "C" and "D," how will their drive letters be assigned (there
is a backup IDE HDD and two optical drives too)? Will I be given a choice
of which one of the two SATA drives on which to install WinXP during set
up--or will it be decided when I install a partition on one of the two
Raptors? (BTW--my Promise controller is disabled in BIOS since I don't need
it). Then perhaps go into storage management and set up the other raptor as
drive D??

MikeSp


  #2  
Old July 9th 04, 01:48 AM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So why not use the advantage of raid1?

"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
After thoroughly reading the thread about RAID drives, it got me to

thinking
that, for my REAL needs (and not psychological ones), that my RAID 0
configuration of Raptors really is not necessary and offers me little
advantage. Since I will need to remove the partition anyway to do a

virgin
install after spending a zillion hours chasing a conflict between Norton
Systemworks (NAV) 2004 and my Audigy 2ZS sound card software as well as a
conflict with Roxio Easy Media Creator causing Windows Installer to

attempt
to install DAO.msi every time Roxio 7 is started), I have tweaked the
registry and installed and uninstalled and reinstalled and patched until

my
XP registry is less than perfect (I wonder if many people know how many
entries Norton puts into the registry and are there even when it is
uninstalled?) Thus, although this new build is running fine and there are
no crashes, I plan to set up a virgin install of XP-Pro (leaving out

Norton
software!!!!) and am wondering how to do so with both SATA drives

connected
to the South bridge Intel chipset (controller) on my P4C800E-D--I would

want
one drive for programs and the other one for data storage. Since these
drives are not "C" and "D," how will their drive letters be assigned

(there
is a backup IDE HDD and two optical drives too)? Will I be given a choice
of which one of the two SATA drives on which to install WinXP during set
up--or will it be decided when I install a partition on one of the two
Raptors? (BTW--my Promise controller is disabled in BIOS since I don't

need
it). Then perhaps go into storage management and set up the other raptor

as
drive D??

MikeSp




  #3  
Old July 9th 04, 02:53 AM
MikeSp
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Help me out here--but I was under the impression that RAID 1 would add
overhead to the CPU as it writes info to a second drive and slow the entire
system down slightly.

BTW--Questions--in RAID 1--is the information copied to the second drive
able to be accessed in My Computer in identical files (as doc or mp3 etc) or
is it encoded and must be recovered somehow? Will the second RAID 0 drive
boot if the first one fails?

MikeSp
-------------------------------
"D" wrote in message
...
So why not use the advantage of raid1?

"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
After thoroughly reading the thread about RAID drives, it got me to

thinking
that, for my REAL needs (and not psychological ones), that my RAID 0
configuration of Raptors really is not necessary and offers me little
advantage. Since I will need to remove the partition anyway to do a

virgin
install after spending a zillion hours chasing a conflict between Norton
Systemworks (NAV) 2004 and my Audigy 2ZS sound card software as well as

a
conflict with Roxio Easy Media Creator causing Windows Installer to

attempt
to install DAO.msi every time Roxio 7 is started), I have tweaked the
registry and installed and uninstalled and reinstalled and patched until

my
XP registry is less than perfect (I wonder if many people know how many
entries Norton puts into the registry and are there even when it is
uninstalled?) Thus, although this new build is running fine and there

are
no crashes, I plan to set up a virgin install of XP-Pro (leaving out

Norton
software!!!!) and am wondering how to do so with both SATA drives

connected
to the South bridge Intel chipset (controller) on my P4C800E-D--I would

want
one drive for programs and the other one for data storage. Since these
drives are not "C" and "D," how will their drive letters be assigned

(there
is a backup IDE HDD and two optical drives too)? Will I be given a

choice
of which one of the two SATA drives on which to install WinXP during set
up--or will it be decided when I install a partition on one of the two
Raptors? (BTW--my Promise controller is disabled in BIOS since I don't

need
it). Then perhaps go into storage management and set up the other

raptor
as
drive D??

MikeSp






  #4  
Old July 9th 04, 03:15 AM
Ron Reaugh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
Help me out here--but I was under the impression that RAID 1 would add
overhead to the CPU as it writes info to a second drive and slow the

entire
system down slightly.


There is a very small extra write overhead and the proportions of writes is
generally small and therefore it's a non-issue; no slowdown. The small
extra load is not to the CPU in any case but to the system I/O bus
structure.

BTW--Questions--in RAID 1--is the information copied to the second drive
able to be accessed in My Computer in identical files (as doc or mp3 etc)

or
is it encoded and must be recovered somehow?


No, the 2nd drive is identical to the first. In fact during multitasked
reads it'll spread the load over both drives for a non-trivial performance
improvement.

Will the second RAID 0 drive
boot if the first one fails?


NO, if any member of a RAID 0 set fails the you lose everything on all the
drives.


  #5  
Old July 9th 04, 04:33 AM
MikeSp
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

OOPS--correction--Will the second RAID 1 drive boot if the first one fails?
---------------------------------------
"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
Help me out here--but I was under the impression that RAID 1 would add
overhead to the CPU as it writes info to a second drive and slow the

entire
system down slightly.

BTW--Questions--in RAID 1--is the information copied to the second drive
able to be accessed in My Computer in identical files (as doc or mp3 etc)

or
is it encoded and must be recovered somehow? Will the second RAID 0 drive
boot if the first one fails?

MikeSp
-------------------------------
"D" wrote in message
...
So why not use the advantage of raid1?

"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
After thoroughly reading the thread about RAID drives, it got me to

thinking
that, for my REAL needs (and not psychological ones), that my RAID 0
configuration of Raptors really is not necessary and offers me little
advantage. Since I will need to remove the partition anyway to do a

virgin
install after spending a zillion hours chasing a conflict between

Norton
Systemworks (NAV) 2004 and my Audigy 2ZS sound card software as well

as
a
conflict with Roxio Easy Media Creator causing Windows Installer to

attempt
to install DAO.msi every time Roxio 7 is started), I have tweaked the
registry and installed and uninstalled and reinstalled and patched

until
my
XP registry is less than perfect (I wonder if many people know how

many
entries Norton puts into the registry and are there even when it is
uninstalled?) Thus, although this new build is running fine and there

are
no crashes, I plan to set up a virgin install of XP-Pro (leaving out

Norton
software!!!!) and am wondering how to do so with both SATA drives

connected
to the South bridge Intel chipset (controller) on my P4C800E-D--I

would
want
one drive for programs and the other one for data storage. Since

these
drives are not "C" and "D," how will their drive letters be assigned

(there
is a backup IDE HDD and two optical drives too)? Will I be given a

choice
of which one of the two SATA drives on which to install WinXP during

set
up--or will it be decided when I install a partition on one of the two
Raptors? (BTW--my Promise controller is disabled in BIOS since I don't

need
it). Then perhaps go into storage management and set up the other

raptor
as
drive D??

MikeSp








  #6  
Old July 9th 04, 06:30 AM
Ron Reaugh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"MikeSp" wrote in message
news
OOPS--correction--Will the second RAID 1 drive boot if the first one

fails?

In most situations yes.

---------------------------------------
"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
Help me out here--but I was under the impression that RAID 1 would add
overhead to the CPU as it writes info to a second drive and slow the

entire
system down slightly.

BTW--Questions--in RAID 1--is the information copied to the second drive
able to be accessed in My Computer in identical files (as doc or mp3

etc)
or
is it encoded and must be recovered somehow? Will the second RAID 0

drive
boot if the first one fails?

MikeSp
-------------------------------
"D" wrote in message
...
So why not use the advantage of raid1?

"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
After thoroughly reading the thread about RAID drives, it got me to
thinking
that, for my REAL needs (and not psychological ones), that my RAID 0
configuration of Raptors really is not necessary and offers me

little
advantage. Since I will need to remove the partition anyway to do a
virgin
install after spending a zillion hours chasing a conflict between

Norton
Systemworks (NAV) 2004 and my Audigy 2ZS sound card software as well

as
a
conflict with Roxio Easy Media Creator causing Windows Installer to
attempt
to install DAO.msi every time Roxio 7 is started), I have tweaked

the
registry and installed and uninstalled and reinstalled and patched

until
my
XP registry is less than perfect (I wonder if many people know how

many
entries Norton puts into the registry and are there even when it is
uninstalled?) Thus, although this new build is running fine and

there
are
no crashes, I plan to set up a virgin install of XP-Pro (leaving out
Norton
software!!!!) and am wondering how to do so with both SATA drives
connected
to the South bridge Intel chipset (controller) on my P4C800E-D--I

would
want
one drive for programs and the other one for data storage. Since

these
drives are not "C" and "D," how will their drive letters be assigned
(there
is a backup IDE HDD and two optical drives too)? Will I be given a

choice
of which one of the two SATA drives on which to install WinXP during

set
up--or will it be decided when I install a partition on one of the

two
Raptors? (BTW--my Promise controller is disabled in BIOS since I

don't
need
it). Then perhaps go into storage management and set up the other

raptor
as
drive D??

MikeSp










  #7  
Old July 9th 04, 08:10 AM
Tim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike,

Any over head in writing is imperceptable - unless you benchmark it of
course. If performance is an issue then it would still be an issue with
Raptors in RAID 0 - Ultra 320 SCSI would be the next way forward. Intel has
some stats on its web site that show that reads are faster, writes a tad
slower.

The objective in RAID 1 is for both drives to be identical, so if one of the
drives is bootable, both will be - they are identical in all aspects except
for some information somewhere on the very front of the disc where the
unique ID's / drive serial numbers and whatever else for each disc is stored
by the raid controller - this is transparent.

The cost of RAID 1 is obvious 2 x 1 drive. Performance, well it is not worse
and if anything better (optimism rings in here) than a single drive. I can't
say I can produce any stats to support this at all. SATA helps, 3GHz
processor helps... last system was dual processor and SCSI, so I was very
very suprised to find the "IDE" based system as good as it is.

With a RAID 1 assembly, you can pull out either drive, boot, see that the
system notices the missing drive, continue booting and use the system,
shutdown, put the drive back in and then watch the system recreate the drive
image at run time while you continue using the system - albeit with a
degradation in performance while the controller does cylinder by cylinder
synchronisation (copy live to other). You can simulate failures at run time
by pulling the power on one of the drives... Note that ICH5R connected
drives are not Hot Swap. I believe that ICH6R are.

One way to answer questions about how RAID 1 should work is to ask yourself
how Should it work. Thats how.

The most common situation where people have boot problems with RAID 1 comes
about not with hardware RAID as you are using, but with Software RAID -
Windows provides the ability to mirror two partitions on two drives. Because
it only mirrors the contents of partitions, it does not mirror boot sectors
and the other stuff at the front of hte disc since they are not in
partitions.

With the Intel SATA controller, you can make RAID 1 at run time if you
configure the controller as RAID in the bios and load the drivers during
windows setup via F6. An Intel RAID is RAID ready when you either start with
1 drive on the RAID controller or have 2 drives but not configured as RAID.
You can configure this to be RAID 1 at run time (with another drive added if
needed) using the IAA application.

Just remember that RAID 1 mirrors what it is told to write, so if you write
crap, delete a file, have a bad day, have a virus, it will obey. Multiple
drive failures do occur as do controllers fail. So always keep a backup.

Oh, and yes, I nearly fell off my chair when I first tried putting Nortons
in... What a mess.

If you are not going to use RAID 1, then I would give RAID ready instead
although the RAID bios during boot may annoy.

HTH
- Tim







"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
Help me out here--but I was under the impression that RAID 1 would add
overhead to the CPU as it writes info to a second drive and slow the
entire
system down slightly.

BTW--Questions--in RAID 1--is the information copied to the second drive
able to be accessed in My Computer in identical files (as doc or mp3 etc)
or
is it encoded and must be recovered somehow? Will the second RAID 0 drive
boot if the first one fails?

MikeSp
-------------------------------
"D" wrote in message
...
So why not use the advantage of raid1?

"MikeSp" wrote in message
...
After thoroughly reading the thread about RAID drives, it got me to

thinking
that, for my REAL needs (and not psychological ones), that my RAID 0
configuration of Raptors really is not necessary and offers me little
advantage. Since I will need to remove the partition anyway to do a

virgin
install after spending a zillion hours chasing a conflict between
Norton
Systemworks (NAV) 2004 and my Audigy 2ZS sound card software as well as

a
conflict with Roxio Easy Media Creator causing Windows Installer to

attempt
to install DAO.msi every time Roxio 7 is started), I have tweaked the
registry and installed and uninstalled and reinstalled and patched
until

my
XP registry is less than perfect (I wonder if many people know how many
entries Norton puts into the registry and are there even when it is
uninstalled?) Thus, although this new build is running fine and there

are
no crashes, I plan to set up a virgin install of XP-Pro (leaving out

Norton
software!!!!) and am wondering how to do so with both SATA drives

connected
to the South bridge Intel chipset (controller) on my P4C800E-D--I would

want
one drive for programs and the other one for data storage. Since these
drives are not "C" and "D," how will their drive letters be assigned

(there
is a backup IDE HDD and two optical drives too)? Will I be given a

choice
of which one of the two SATA drives on which to install WinXP during
set
up--or will it be decided when I install a partition on one of the two
Raptors? (BTW--my Promise controller is disabled in BIOS since I don't

need
it). Then perhaps go into storage management and set up the other

raptor
as
drive D??

MikeSp








  #8  
Old July 9th 04, 09:31 PM
Ron Reaugh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Tim" wrote in message ...
Mike,

Any over head in writing is imperceptable - unless you benchmark it of
course.


You wont even see any SW/firmware RAID 1 overhead in most benchmarks.

If performance is an issue then it would still be an issue with
Raptors in RAID 0


Just a modest(smaller) issue with SW/firmware RAID 0.

- Ultra 320 SCSI would be the next way forward.


In the RAID and overhead issues U320 SCSI is no different than any other
interface.

Intel has
some stats on its web site that show that reads are faster, writes a tad
slower.

The objective in RAID 1 is for both drives to be identical, so if one of

the
drives is bootable, both will be - they are identical in all aspects

except
for some information somewhere on the very front of the disc where the
unique ID's / drive serial numbers and whatever else for each disc is

stored
by the raid controller - this is transparent.

The cost of RAID 1 is obvious 2 x 1 drive. Performance, well it is not

worse
and if anything better (optimism rings in here) than a single drive.


There no special optimizations in RAID 1 EXCEPT that multitasked reads are
split over both drives so that both drives can share the load.

I can't
say I can produce any stats to support this at all. SATA helps, 3GHz
processor helps... last system was dual processor and SCSI, so I was very
very suprised to find the "IDE" based system as good as it is.


Why?

With a RAID 1 assembly, you can pull out either drive, boot, see that the
system notices the missing drive, continue booting and use the system,
shutdown, put the drive back in and then watch the system recreate the

drive
image at run time while you continue using the system - albeit with a
degradation in performance while the controller does cylinder by cylinder
synchronisation (copy live to other). You can simulate failures at run

time
by pulling the power on one of the drives... Note that ICH5R connected
drives are not Hot Swap.


Who says for SATA drives? Cite a reference.

I believe that ICH6R are.

One way to answer questions about how RAID 1 should work is to ask

yourself
how Should it work. Thats how.

The most common situation where people have boot problems with RAID 1

comes
about not with hardware RAID as you are using,


Actually it's not hardware RAID but firmware RAID and there's a big
difference between the two.

but with Software RAID -
Windows provides the ability to mirror two partitions on two drives.

Because
it only mirrors the contents of partitions, it does not mirror boot

sectors
and the other stuff at the front of hte disc since they are not in
partitions.


That's overall inaccurate.



 




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