Next banter session...

Ok.. Since you guys like some bantering...(8-

I've got a few questions for you.. Now that I've had my 6400R up and running
for a while, I think I need to keep my eyes open for a nice backup
device for this thing (of the tape variety).. Are the DLT 70Gb drives
about as good as you can get for these older machines while going on the
cheap? If I want to fork out more money, are the SDLT drives usable on
this platform and what sort of things should I be looking for on these
things (either DLT or SDLT)? I realize that the early DLT drives
weren't that reliable (we used them on Sun servers for backups
and were replacing them ~annually when that technology was new
back in '98 or so?

Are there any other non-DLT backup systems that I should consider?

Thanks!

Rick F. wrote:
Ok.. Since you guys like some bantering...(8-

I've got a few questions for you.. Now that I've had my 6400R up and running
for a while, I think I need to keep my eyes open for a nice backup
device for this thing (of the tape variety).. Are the DLT 70Gb drives
about as good as you can get for these older machines while going on the
cheap? If I want to fork out more money, are the SDLT drives usable on
this platform and what sort of things should I be looking for on these
things (either DLT or SDLT)? I realize that the early DLT drives
weren't that reliable (we used them on Sun servers for backups
and were replacing them ~annually when that technology was new
back in '98 or so?

Are there any other non-DLT backup systems that I should consider?

Thanks!

LIke I have indicated in recent posts, I like to use DEC DLT 2000
Compaq branded tape drives. It's true that they do fail occasionally,
but they can be replaced on ebay for about $20 each! You mentioned
doing things "on the cheap"...well these things are the way to go.
Check out these two listings for lots of new tapes and cleaning tapes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-x-DLT-III-XT-D...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/4-x-DLT-III-Clea...QQcmdZViewItem

Now these tapes provide 15G of storage and up to 30G compressed. A good
backup solution should involve you only backing up critical
data...backing up an entire copy of the boot drive (for instance) is
not practical, and it just won't really work. Just the fact that the
system is booted up and running means that critical files are currently
IN USE, and won't be available to be copied to the backup media. A
total drive failure really does require you to reload the OS from
scratch...then turn to your backup media to restore critical data. THAT
is a practical backup solution.

Now, I fully expect Jez to contribute a rant that sings the praises of
spending $1000 - $2000 for some new modern solution. He is right when
he says it is better and might be more reliable. But notice that with
the solution I just laid out, you could get three drives (two spares)
and a whole box full of tapes (data and cleaning) and STILL keep the
cost below $100. I think that the numbers make this worthy of STRONG
consideration.

Jeff

"Rick F." wrote in message
...
Ok.. Since you guys like some bantering...(8-

I've got a few questions for you.. Now that I've had my 6400R up and
running
for a while, I think I need to keep my eyes open for a nice backup
device for this thing (of the tape variety).. Are the DLT 70Gb drives
about as good as you can get for these older machines while going on the
cheap? If I want to fork out more money, are the SDLT drives usable on
this platform and what sort of things should I be looking for on these
things (either DLT or SDLT)? I realize that the early DLT drives
weren't that reliable (we used them on Sun servers for backups
and were replacing them ~annually when that technology was new
back in '98 or so?

Are there any other non-DLT backup systems that I should consider?

Thanks!


Im a fan of LTO ... i hear AIT isnt too bad either. I've had years and
years of success with DLT also. SDLT is pretty much the same thing, but
higher density and maybe a little faster. You need a loader/library, or a
stand alone device? Honestly, anything that you can hookup to the onboard
SCSI controller (externally) will be fine.

- LC

In article , Nut Cracker wrote:

Im a fan of LTO ... i hear AIT isnt too bad either. I've had years and
years of success with DLT also. SDLT is pretty much the same thing, but
higher density and maybe a little faster. You need a loader/library, or a
stand alone device? Honestly, anything that you can hookup to the onboard
SCSI controller (externally) will be fine.

Thanks Jeff & LC...

I might keep my "cheap" side going and try out the ultra-cheap DLT drives for
the time being.. I wanna make sure I've got some sort of backup of my system
drive (running FC3 here) since that volume is not RAID enabled -- I've only
got the RAID5 going on my dont-want-to-lose-this-info volume. As long as I'm
able to do occasional backups of my system partitions after upgrades et-al,
and regular backups for my cant-lose data, I should be OK.. I might have to
look for a nice external enclosure -- rack mounted would be best -- any
suggestions? Ideally, I'd like one that I could shut-off after use to save
some $$ for the ol power bill (e.g. if I'm only going to use it once or twice
a month) -- I realize I'd have to reboot probably to ensure the system doesn't
get annoyed when I remove the power from that SCSI device (unless you can
get away with doing that on these types of servers?).


Thanks again guys!

I might have to
look for a nice external enclosure -- rack mounted would be best -- any
suggestions? Ideally, I'd like one that I could shut-off after use to save
some $$ for the ol power bill (e.g. if I'm only going to use it once or twice
a month) -- I realize I'd have to reboot probably to ensure the system doesn't
get annoyed when I remove the power from that SCSI device (unless you can
get away with doing that on these types of servers?).


Thanks again guys!

Here's a quick link to a pagefull of these on ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...paq+Tape+drive

I actually prefer to have the drives mounted internally in the server.
That is easy enough with my 3000's and 1600's, but is just not possible
in your 6400r.

I know you have been here for quite some time, Rick, so I assume it is
not necessary to mention the ABSOLUTE neccessity of getting the SCSI
termination right on a Tape Drive. If you don't, funny things can
happen...and I don't mean funny "ha-ha", I mean funny "what the hell?".
An external tape drive without the proper terminator will appear fine,
will show up in Device Manager, will pass diagnostics tests...and will
only screw up when you attempt a restore. That is certainly worthy of a
"what the hell?".

Also, in my experience, finding an external tape drive is easy...but
finding the proper cable for it is not so easy. When you are looking at
them keep the cable and terminator in mind. It is definitely worth a
few extra dollars to buy a unit that INCLUDES these two items.

Jeff

"Jeffrey Alsip" wrote in message
ps.com...

Rick F. wrote:
Ok.. Since you guys like some bantering...(8-

I've got a few questions for you.. Now that I've had my 6400R up and
running
for a while, I think I need to keep my eyes open for a nice backup
device for this thing (of the tape variety).. Are the DLT 70Gb drives
about as good as you can get for these older machines while going on the
cheap?

Key thing is to match your backup solution to your server, so a DLT 35/70
should be fine. If you can find one a DLT 40/80 may prove more reliable.

If I want to fork out more money, are the SDLT drives usable on
this platform and what sort of things should I be looking for on these
things (either DLT or SDLT)? I realize that the early DLT drives
weren't that reliable (we used them on Sun servers for backups
and were replacing them ~annually when that technology was new
back in '98 or so?

Are there any other non-DLT backup systems that I should consider?

If you're buying old stuff, stick with something cheap and readily
available. That way, you can replace it when it fails. Without delving
through Ebay, I'd say a DLT 35/70 or a 40/80 should fill those criteria.

Factor in the cost of the media and cleaning tape(s) as well.


Now these tapes provide 15G of storage and up to 30G compressed. A good
backup solution should involve you only backing up critical
data...backing up an entire copy of the boot drive (for instance) is
not practical, and it just won't really work.

Don't agree. A good backup solution should (at single server level) is the
one that provides you with the most likely way of recovering your server as
quickly as possible in the case of a disaster. Backup the whole server onto
one tape. Yes, it does work - I've had to do it in a live situation. Do test
it though and make sure you have a documented process.

The more tapes you have, the harder it becomes to manage and the more effort
you will have to spend trying to work out what the correct procedure is in a
critical situation. KISS.

Just the fact that the
system is booted up and running means that critical files are currently
IN USE, and won't be available to be copied to the backup media.

Any decent backup package will be able to back up open files. Ever heard of
OBDR?

A total drive failure really does require you to reload the OS from
scratch...then turn to your backup media to restore critical data. THAT
is a practical backup solution.

Better ways of doing it. Remember, you want to recover your applications and
configurations as well

Now, I fully expect Jez to contribute a rant that sings the praises of
spending $1000 - $2000 for some new modern solution.

Wot - for an old server??? No way - Match the technology to what you have
already and you should stay within the same budgets.

He is right

I usually am. But I'm not infallible.

"Jeffrey Alsip" wrote in message
ups.com...
I might have to
look for a nice external enclosure -- rack mounted would be best -- any
suggestions? Ideally, I'd like one that I could shut-off after use to
save
some $$ for the ol power bill (e.g. if I'm only going to use it once or
twice
a month) -- I realize I'd have to reboot probably to ensure the system
doesn't
get annoyed when I remove the power from that SCSI device (unless you can
get away with doing that on these types of servers?).


Thanks again guys!

Here's a quick link to a pagefull of these on ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...paq+Tape+drive

I actually prefer to have the drives mounted internally in the server.
That is easy enough with my 3000's and 1600's, but is just not possible
in your 6400r.

I know you have been here for quite some time, Rick, so I assume it is
not necessary to mention the ABSOLUTE neccessity of getting the SCSI
termination right on a Tape Drive. If you don't, funny things can
happen...and I don't mean funny "ha-ha", I mean funny "what the hell?".
An external tape drive w
ithout the proper terminator will appear fine,
will show up in Device Manager, will pass diagnostics tests...and will
only screw up when you attempt a restore. That is certainly worthy of a
"what the hell?".

Also, in my experience, finding an external tape drive is easy...but
finding the proper cable for it is not so easy. When you are looking at
them keep the cable and terminator in mind. It is definitely worth a
few extra dollars to buy a unit that INCLUDES these two items.

Jeff


avoid old drives with 50pin Centronics connectors ... go 68pin or VHDCI

In article , Jez T wrote:

Key thing is to match your backup solution to your server, so a DLT 35/70
should be fine. If you can find one a DLT 40/80 may prove more reliable.

Thanks guys.. In poking around on e*bay I found that most people selling
these things do not bother to include either a power cord or cable for the
external models. I did find one place in Australia for a good price (for a
20/40 model) but I'm thinking I'll be bit on the shipping to the LA area..

I'm now looking at a 35/70 preferably or 20/40 if a good deal comes along
with a cable,etc.

Thanks again!

-- Rick