Gaming AMD vs Intel

Wes Newell wrote:
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 10:01:26 -0500, Del Cecchi wrote:


Wes Newell wrote:
*
snip

Serial technologies such as PCI Express and RapidIO require
serial-deserializer interfaces and have the burden of extensive overhead
in encoding parallel data into serial data, embedding clock information,
re-acquiring and decoding the data stream. The parallel technology of
HyperTransport needs no serdes and clock encoding overhead making it far
more efficient in data transfers.

I rest my case.;-)


The last paragraph you quote, shown above, is Clintonian at best, with
respect to comparing the physical aspects of HT and PCI-E.


You snipped the portion I had highlighted. I didn't even read this part.
Nor do I have any comments on it. If you have a problem with it. i suggest
you contact the people that wrote it. If Clintonian refers to refers to
our lying crooked x pres, those are are fighting words. I never voted for
the lowlife.

You pasted and posted, from the HT Marketroids. They were doing fine
until this paragraph which is Clintonian in its mixture of half truth
and fibs. I never thought you personally were responsible.

HT sacrificed all for low latency and low cost in the first couple
versions. "Network Extensions" started to fix it, and I have hopes for
HT3 when it comes out.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 04:52:36 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:41:35 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 05:59:41 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:


Nope. As George stated, it was in opposition the "back-side cache bus"
of the P6. The P5 had no "FSB".

Under your definition of FSB, then no AMD CPU's have ever had a FSB. Let's
see just how many people you can convince of that.:-)
Of course, the EV6 bus used to connect Athlon CPUs to their chipsets
is only kinda-sorta a bus in itself. Really it's more of a
point-to-point link, though it's in that fuzzy area that blurs the
lines between the two a bit (where the GTL+ bus used in the P6 is
definitely a bus and Hypertransport is definitely not a bus, EV6 falls
somewhere in between).

You're out to lunch here for the most part.

If you go look up some tech docs & data sheets you'll find that he's spot
on... as usual. EV6 is not a bus by the usual criteria.

While the term may have originated the way you say, it was then later
used to indicate the connection between the CPU and the chipset.

Yes, a lot of people incorrectly refer to the a connection between the
CPU and the chipset as a "Front Side Bus". Just because lots of people
make a mistake that doesn't mean that they are right.

Wrong. FSB is defined as the bus connection between the CPU and chipset.
AMD calls the bus a FSB and I'm pretty sure Intel did too on the P4.

You'll have to cite a technical reference for AMD calling the HT link to
the I/O chip(s) a FSB - brewing up your own folksy lexicon for computer
sub-system nomenclature will not do it.

If
you break down the term, it's pretty simple. Front side, meaning not the
back side, and bus. A bus is a collection of 1 or more electrical
connections between 2 or more points. The type of bus (standard, EV6, HT
link, or any other type) is of no concern.

If we allow a bit of slack and call the on-die L2 cache connection a BSB,
we can call the K7s', P4s', P-Ms' connection to the chipset a FSB - after
all it carries the same traffic as a FSB. AMD has used this terminology
for its K7 architecture though some have argued with that. With the K8 the
HT link to to the I/O sub-system, however, there is no CPU- memory
traffic, which is the principal function of a FSB and is the derivation of
the name; the up/down HT link doesn't even serve the same functions as a
FSB.

People also still call the memory controller the "northbridge" and the
I/O chip a "southbridge", which also makes no sense given that they are
no longer being connected via PCI and they usually aren't bridges at
all. Again, just because people incorrectly use a term doesn't make it
correct.

What? The northbridge has much more in it than just a memory controller.
And the K8 northbridge doesn't even have a memory controller in it.

coughsplutter You just fell in.

The K8 architecture does not have a north bridge... and in the case of
nForce3/4 has only the one chip for I/O and AGP/PCI-e Tunnel.

Now, that same
connection is the HT link of the K8. So it only makes sense to use the
same terminology for the very specific connection even though memory
data now has own single use bus for the memory.

It doesn't make any sense with the AthlonXP or the P4 and it makes MUCH
less sense with the Athlon64/Opteron. Just because it's a common
mistake doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

Well, AMD and Intel disagree, as do I. ANd it's used for one purpose IMO,
to distinquish which fricking bus you are talking about.

I won't argue about K7/P4/P-M but for K8.... references.

The FSB still carries all other
IO operations to/from the system. Once they move all this into the CPU,
there will no longer be a FSB. Until then, a duck by any other name is
still a duck.

Yes, but that still doesn't make a goose a duck, even if lots of people
mix the two of them up.

Just out of curiosty, I'd like you to tell me what the name of the bus
is between the CPU and the chipset. And I don't mean what type of bus.
It's already known to be an HT link. So what's the name you want to give
it so that when someone refers to it by that name they will know exactly
which bus you are talking about and where it connects. And it has to be
specific. Sytem bus doesn't cut, there's many system buses. CPU bus
doesn't cut it as there are many cpu busses if you count the internal
busses. I say FSB. I'm waiting for a better one from you.

AMD has used the term "I/O connection" when HT connects the CPU to an I/O
chipset; before Pentium Pro it was called system bus or IIRC main bus or
even main system bus.

The point is that you can't have a "front side bus" unless you have a
corresponding "back side bus". Hypertransport does not have such a
corresponding back side so therefore it's not the "front side" of
anything.

I'll give you two options. Take your pick. (1) The internal bus to the L2
cache is the back side bus. It just internal now. (2) Why must there be a
BSB at all? FSB is more of a designation for a certain bus rather than
actually describing it's location. It connects between the CPU and
chipset, just as it did on the Athlon (non 64) cpu's. And no one had any
complaints of calling it a FSB then. That's what AMD called it.

Again, the most important task of a FSB has been CPU-memory traffic - the
K8's HT doesn't do that... different topology... it's not an FSB.

Why are you stuck on the Pentium Pro. FSB has been used for years to
indicate the connection between the CPU and the chipset.

The term "Front Side Bus" was never used with the Pentium chips because
there was only one bus. FSB came into computer use with the PentiumPro
where Intel introduced a chip with a Frontside Bus (connecting to main
memory and I/O) and a Backside bus (connecting to cache).

How many times must you guys write this? No one argues that point.

But you just did - you asked why we were "stuck" on Pentium Pro... the
origin of the term FSB.

The terminology continued through the PII and early PIII chips, as well
as early Athlon chips, as they had two buses, one for memory and I/O
and the other for cache. For chips with only a single bus the term "FSB"
makes no sense. Never has and never will, no matter how many people
make such a mistake.

It makes all the sense in the world defined as the connection between the
CPU and chipset. If not, tell me what does. All you people have said it's
not right, yet none of you have come up with a definitive name for the
bus. I wonder if that's why it's stuck around so long, since I've seen it
defined as just that, the bus between the CPU and chipset.

No it makes no sense at all, since by definition, as the cohort of a BSB,
it carries CPU-memory traffic. To belabor the point: the BSB carried
CPU-L2 Cache traffic and on cache misses, the traffic is "diverted" to
FSB.

Hypertransport is NOT an 'bus' in any way, shape or form. HT is a
point-to-point link. PCI-E and AGP are also definitely not buses,
though I expect many people to incorrectly call them such. PCI and ISA
are buses

I don't know what you think a bus is. perhaps you should give your
definition of a bus, and not a school bus. Every definition of bus I've
seen says it an electrical pathway. So unless the HT link works without
electricty, it's a bus. As are all the others you claim aren't.

You are (apparently) confused by an electrician's bus and a computer
architect's bus. To some system experts/architects -- and there is at
least one of them arguing with you -- the term "bus" implies "multi-drop
bus", as is the case with Intel's GTL+ and AGTL+. It is also often used
more loosely, as is the case of K7. When it is used with an accompanying
qualifier, like PCI Bus, USB, FSB etc. it is generally a specific
designation for something which is well, even formally, defined
functionality. In K8, HT does not fulfill the same functionality as FSB.

And now the killer punch. From;

http://www.hypertransport.org/consortium/cons_faqs.cfm

9. How does HyperTransport technology compare to other bus technologies?

As compared to older multidrop, shared buses such as PCI, PCI-X or SysAD,
HyperTransport provides a far simplier electrical interface, but with much
greater bandwidth. Instead of a wide, address/data/control multidrop,
shared bus such as implemented by PCI, PCI-X or SysAD technologies,
HyperTransport deploys narrow, but very fast unidirectional links to carry
both data and command information encoded into packets. Unidirectional
links provide significantly better signal integrity at high speeds and
enable much faster data transfers with low-power 1.2V LVDS signals. In
addition, link widths can be asymmetrical, meaning that 2 bit wide links
can easily connect to 8 bit wide links and 8 bit wide links can connect to
16 or 32 bit wide links and so on. Thus, the HyperTransport Technology
eliminates the problems associated with high speed parallel buses with
their many noisy bus signals (multiplexed data/address, and clock and
control signals) while providing scalable bandwidth wherever it is needed
in the system. As compared to newer serial I/O technologies such as
RapidIO and PCI Express, HyperTransport shares some raw bandwidth
characteristics, but is significantly different in some key
characteristics.
*****Read this pargraph carefully********
HyperTransport was designed to support both CPU-to-CPU
communications as well as CPU-to-I/O transfers, thus, it features very low
latency. Consequently, it has been incorporated into multiple x86 and MIPS
architecture processors as an integrated front-side bus.
*And don't miss this................................. ^^^^^^^^^ *

Serial technologies such as PCI Express and RapidIO require
serial-deserializer interfaces and have the burden of extensive overhead
in encoding parallel data into serial data, embedding clock information,
re-acquiring and decoding the data stream. The parallel technology of
HyperTransport needs no serdes and clock encoding overhead making it far
more efficient in data transfers.

I rest my case.;-)

What can I say?... somebody blundered... it's only a FAQ and "*integrated*
front side bus" is the only place where it refers to HT as a "bus". If you
look at
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...ure_FINAL2.pdf
on p8 you'll find "Replacing what has traditionally been the system
'front-side bus' with a HyperTransport technology-based I/O connection
dramatically extends processor to system communication bandwidth from
2.1GB/s up to 6.4GB/s". There are pictures for you of the old FSB
architecture and the new HT-based architecture. Then on p9:
"HyperTransport technology provides a high-speed, chip-to-chip
interconnect..."

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:23:25 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 04:52:36 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:
You're out to lunch here for the most part.

If you go look up some tech docs & data sheets you'll find that he's spot
on... as usual. EV6 is not a bus by the usual criteria.

Suggest you read this. One of thousands that claim it's a bus.

http://www.free-definition.com/Front-side-bus.html

Wrong. FSB is defined as the bus connection between the CPU and chipset.
AMD calls the bus a FSB and I'm pretty sure Intel did too on the P4.

You'll have to cite a technical reference for AMD calling the HT link to
the I/O chip(s) a FSB - brewing up your own folksy lexicon for computer
sub-system nomenclature will not do it.

I'm not wasting any more time citing crap for you. The proof is down
below, which you tend to ignore.

If
you break down the term, it's pretty simple. Front side, meaning not the
back side, and bus. A bus is a collection of 1 or more electrical
connections between 2 or more points. The type of bus (standard, EV6, HT
link, or any other type) is of no concern.

If we allow a bit of slack and call the on-die L2 cache connection a
BSB, we can call the K7s', P4s', P-Ms' connection to the chipset a FSB -
after all it carries the same traffic as a FSB. AMD has used this
terminology for its K7 architecture though some have argued with that.
With the K8 the HT link to to the I/O sub-system, however, there is no
CPU- memory traffic, which is the principal function of a FSB and is
the derivation of the name; the up/down HT link doesn't even serve the
same functions as a FSB.

The cpu to system memory function was just one of many functions the FSB
does. it still has cpu to memory functions and feeds data to/from the
memory on the video card, the cache memory on each hard drive, memory on
other cards, etc, etc, etc.

What? The northbridge has much more in it than just a memory controller.
And the K8 northbridge doesn't even have a memory controller in it.

coughsplutter You just fell in.

I meant the chipset northbridge.

The K8 architecture does not have a north bridge... and in the case of
nForce3/4 has only the one chip for I/O and AGP/PCI-e Tunnel.

Well, AMD and Intel disagree, as do I. ANd it's used for one purpose
IMO, to distinquish which fricking bus you are talking about.

I won't argue about K7/P4/P-M but for K8.... references.

You already seen them from the Hyprtansport Consortium. Who do you want
them from before you will believe it, God? Sorry, can't help you there.

Just out of curiosty, I'd like you to tell me what the name of the bus
is between the CPU and the chipset. And I don't mean what type of bus.
It's already known to be an HT link. So what's the name you want to give
it so that when someone refers to it by that name they will know exactly
which bus you are talking about and where it connects. And it has to be
specific. Sytem bus doesn't cut, there's many system buses. CPU bus
doesn't cut it as there are many cpu busses if you count the internal
busses. I say FSB. I'm waiting for a better one from you.

AMD has used the term "I/O connection" when HT connects the CPU to an
I/O chipset; before Pentium Pro it was called system bus or IIRC main
bus or even main system bus.

So, I'm supposed to tell someone that the CPU clockspeed is determined by
the multiplier times the I/O connection speed. Right.:-) Would you care to
guess how many I/O connections there are in a basic PC system, 100,
1000, more than that?:-)

I'll give you two options. Take your pick. (1) The internal bus to the
L2 cache is the back side bus. It just internal now. (2) Why must there
be a BSB at all? FSB is more of a designation for a certain bus rather
than actually describing it's location. It connects between the CPU and
chipset, just as it did on the Athlon (non 64) cpu's. And no one had any
complaints of calling it a FSB then. That's what AMD called it.

Again, the most important task of a FSB has been CPU-memory traffic -
the K8's HT doesn't do that... different topology... it's not an FSB.

Actually you can get a functioning system without external ssytem memory.
I'd sure like to see you use a system without a video output, or a storage
device, or any of the other functions that go over the FSB. They have
them, but they're usually used in standalone places as embedded. So, to
me, the memory is not the most important function, but even if it was,
it's still just ONE of many.

It makes all the sense in the world defined as the connection between
the CPU and chipset. If not, tell me what does. All you people have said
it's not right, yet none of you have come up with a definitive name for
the bus. I wonder if that's why it's stuck around so long, since I've
seen it defined as just that, the bus between the CPU and chipset.

No it makes no sense at all, since by definition, as the cohort of a
BSB, it carries CPU-memory traffic. To belabor the point: the BSB
carried CPU-L2 Cache traffic and on cache misses, the traffic is
"diverted" to FSB.

So, if it's not a FSB because the memory bus is now seperate, then the
memory bus is the FSB. Now I'm wondering what I'm going to call my car
when I take the removable dvd player out of it. Can't call it a car
anymore can I. Lost the cigar lighter, no more car.:-)

I don't know what you think a bus is. perhaps you should give your
definition of a bus, and not a school bus. Every definition of bus I've
seen says it an electrical pathway. So unless the HT link works without
electricty, it's a bus. As are all the others you claim aren't.

You are (apparently) confused by an electrician's bus and a computer
architect's bus. To some system experts/architects -- and there is at
least one of them arguing with you -- the term "bus" implies "multi-drop
bus", as is the case with Intel's GTL+ and AGTL+. It is also often used
more loosely, as is the case of K7. When it is used with an
accompanying qualifier, like PCI Bus, USB, FSB etc. it is generally a
specific designation for something which is well, even formally, defined
functionality. In K8, HT does not fulfill the same functionality as
FSB.

And there's at least one system expert/architect that disagrees with
yours, namely me. Oh, and the HT people also disagree with your expert
also. But what do they know, they just develope it.

And now the killer punch. From;

http://www.hypertransport.org/consortium/cons_faqs.cfm

9. How does HyperTransport technology compare to other bus technologies?

*****Read this pargraph carefully********
HyperTransport was designed to support both CPU-to-CPU
communications as well as CPU-to-I/O transfers, thus, it features very
low latency. Consequently, it has been incorporated into multiple x86
and MIPS architecture processors as an integrated front-side bus. *And
don't miss this................................. ^^^^^^^^^ *

I rest my case.;-)

What can I say?... somebody blundered... it's only a FAQ and

No kidding, and it was you.

"*integrated* front side bus" is the only place where it refers to HT as
a "bus".

Well, if it's a bus in one place, what is it in another? A motorcycle
maybe. Hmmm... it connects to the cpu and chipset just like other buses
did, so that means it can't be a bus.:-)

If you look at
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...ure_FINAL2.pdf
on p8 you'll find "Replacing what has traditionally been the system
'front-side bus' with a HyperTransport technology-based I/O connection
dramatically extends processor to system communication bandwidth from
2.1GB/s up to 6.4GB/s". There are pictures for you of the old FSB
architecture and the new HT-based architecture. Then on p9:
"HyperTransport technology provides a high-speed, chip-to-chip
interconnect..."

Sorry, my K8 system isn't designed the same way as it is in the diagram
you reference, and I doubt yours is either. Look at it closely. look at
the northbridge, and then look at the other side. What's changed other
than the name? One thing, the memory bus moved to the cpu. Now look at the
southbridge and then the other side. What's cahnged other than the name?
NOTHING. the chipset makers didn't adhere to these name changes either.
I've got a nortbridge and southbrige chipset, and there isn't any HT link
between them on my system. Basically, all they are saying is they replaced
the traditional (for AMD) EV6 FSB with an HT Link FSB. Although they do
show it going from the north to the southbridge, which isn't the case with
most chipsets. If you want to see the architecture of your chipset go to
their website. Mine uses multitol between the two. VIA uses something
else, and I'm sure each has their own bus type between the 2 devices.

Let's see. I've proven the HT link can be a bus. I've proven the HT link
is a FSB when connected betwen the cpu and chipset. That's it for me. if
you need proof from someone other than the people that develope HT
technology you'll have to get it elsewhere. Although if Ford tells me they
build cars, and someone else tells me they don't. I think I'd have to
believe Ford.

--
KT133 MB, CPU @2400MHz (24x100): SIS755 MB CPU @2330MHz (10x233)
Need good help? Provide all system info with question.
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 04:52:36 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:
People also still call the memory controller the "northbridge" and the
I/O chip a "southbridge", which also makes no sense given that they are
no longer being connected via PCI and they usually aren't bridges at
all. Again, just because people incorrectly use a term doesn't make it
correct.

What? The northbridge has much more in it than just a memory controller.
And the K8 northbridge doesn't even have a memory controller in it.

It's also not a bridge nor is it 'north' (or 'south') of anything.
The term "northbridge" and "southbridge" come specifically from
definitions of PCI bridges. None of today's chipsets use PCI to
interconnect their two (or more) ICs that make up their motherboards
chipsets.

Yes, but that still doesn't make a goose a duck, even if lots of people
mix the two of them up.

Just out of curiosty, I'd like you to tell me what the name of the bus
is between the CPU and the chipset.

Typically I refer to it exactly as it is: "CPU to chipset bus".

Hypertransport is NOT an 'bus' in any way, shape or form. HT is a
point-to-point link. PCI-E and AGP are also definitely not buses,
though I expect many people to incorrectly call them such. PCI and ISA
are buses

I don't know what you think a bus is. perhaps you should give your
definition of a bus, and not a school bus. Every definition of bus I've
seen says it an electrical pathway. So unless the HT link works without
electricty, it's a bus. As are all the others you claim aren't.

And now the killer punch. From;

http://www.hypertransport.org/consortium/cons_faqs.cfm

9. How does HyperTransport technology compare to other bus technologies?

As compared to older multidrop, shared buses such as PCI, PCI-X or SysAD,
HyperTransport provides a far simplier electrical interface, but with much
greater bandwidth. Instead of a wide, address/data/control multidrop,
shared bus such as implemented by PCI, PCI-X or SysAD technologies,
HyperTransport deploys narrow, but very fast unidirectional links to carry
both data and command information encoded into packets. Unidirectional
links provide significantly better signal integrity at high speeds and
enable much faster data transfers with low-power 1.2V LVDS signals. In
addition, link widths can be asymmetrical, meaning that 2 bit wide links
can easily connect to 8 bit wide links and 8 bit wide links can connect to
16 or 32 bit wide links and so on. Thus, the HyperTransport Technology
eliminates the problems associated with high speed parallel buses with
their many noisy bus signals (multiplexed data/address, and clock and
control signals) while providing scalable bandwidth wherever it is needed
in the system. As compared to newer serial I/O technologies such as
RapidIO and PCI Express, HyperTransport shares some raw bandwidth
characteristics, but is significantly different in some key
characteristics.
*****Read this pargraph carefully********

Err, and where exactly does it say that this is a bus? It says that
it REPLACES buses. From your link above:

quoting

7. What is HyperTransport technology?

HyperTransport chip-to-chip interconnect technology is a highly
optimized, high performance and low latency board-level architecture
for embedded and open- architecture systems. It provides up to 22.4
Gigabyte/second aggregate CPU to I/O or CPU to CPU bandwidth in a
highly efficient chip-to-chip technology that replaces existing
complex multi-level buses.

end quote


"I/O Link", "chip-to-chip interconnect" and "chip-to-chip technology"
are all used to describe it. Not "bus" because it isn't a bus.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:29:38 -0400, keith wrote:

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:41:35 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 05:59:41 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

Not true at all. The original AMD Athlon had both a front-side bus,
connecting the CPU to the chipset, I/O and memory, and a backside bus
that connected the CPU to the cache chips on the Slot-A cartridge.
This was actually the last x86 CPU that I'm aware of which did have a
frontside bus (Intel had already gone to integrated cache by this
time).

Just because the cache is integrated doesn't mean the cache isn't on the
"back side" of the processor. The "back-side" concept was really a
separation of the cache from the memory busses.

Ok, I'll grant that point. I would still say that it's not really an
accurate way of describing things when your 'bus' is connecting one
half of a die to the other half of the die, but I suppose it is still
a 'bus' of sorts, and certainly would be on the "backside" (relative
to memory).

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 02:43:11 +0000, Wes Newell wrote:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:23:25 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 04:52:36 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:
You're out to lunch here for the most part.

If you go look up some tech docs & data sheets you'll find that he's spot
on... as usual. EV6 is not a bus by the usual criteria.

Suggest you read this. One of thousands that claim it's a bus.

I suggest you understand what a bus is, and forget what the popular press
says.

http://www.free-definition.com/Front-side-bus.html

Yawn.

Wrong. FSB is defined as the bus connection between the CPU and
chipset. AMD calls the bus a FSB and I'm pretty sure Intel did too on
the P4.

You'll have to cite a technical reference for AMD calling the HT link
to the I/O chip(s) a FSB - brewing up your own folksy lexicon for
computer sub-system nomenclature will not do it.

I'm not wasting any more time citing crap for you. The proof is down
below, which you tend to ignore.

There is no such "proof". The definition of a "bus" is much older than
even you. A buss is a multi-drop utility. ...kinda like what you take to
work. A point-to-point facility is never referred to as a "bus".

If
you break down the term, it's pretty simple. Front side, meaning not
the back side, and bus. A bus is a collection of 1 or more electrical
connections between 2 or more points. The type of bus (standard, EV6,
HT link, or any other type) is of no concern.

If we allow a bit of slack and call the on-die L2 cache connection a
BSB, we can call the K7s', P4s', P-Ms' connection to the chipset a FSB
- after all it carries the same traffic as a FSB. AMD has used this
terminology for its K7 architecture though some have argued with that.
With the K8 the HT link to to the I/O sub-system, however, there is no
CPU- memory traffic, which is the principal function of a FSB and is
the derivation of the name; the up/down HT link doesn't even serve the
same functions as a FSB.

The cpu to system memory function was just one of many functions the FSB
does.

Nope. As you've been told a hundred times now, the FSB was so named
because Intel broke off the L2 cache from the system bus, and named the
cache interface the "back-side bus", this the memory and I/O bus became
the "front side". Those descriptions no longer fit the K8 system
architecture, so are discarded. ...no matter what the nitwits in the
popular press say.

it still has cpu to memory functions and feeds data to/from the
memory on the video card,

That's an I/O function.

the cache memory on each hard drive

You really are stretching things thin.

memory on other cards, etc, etc, etc.

What cards? Memory mapped I/O? PLease! That's still I/O.

What? The northbridge has much more in it than just a memory
controller. And the K8 northbridge doesn't even have a memory
controller in it.

coughsplutter You just fell in.

I meant the chipset northbridge.

You fell in again.

The K8 architecture does not have a north bridge... and in the case of
nForce3/4 has only the one chip for I/O and AGP/PCI-e Tunnel.

Well, AMD and Intel disagree, as do I. ANd it's used for one purpose
IMO, to distinquish which fricking bus you are talking about.

I won't argue about K7/P4/P-M but for K8.... references.

You already seen them from the Hyprtansport Consortium. Who do you want
them from before you will believe it, God? Sorry, can't help you there.

You're the one who needs help! ...lots of it!

Just out of curiosty, I'd like you to tell me what the name of the bus
is between the CPU and the chipset. And I don't mean what type of bus.
It's already known to be an HT link. So what's the name you want to
give it so that when someone refers to it by that name they will know
exactly which bus you are talking about and where it connects. And it
has to be specific. Sytem bus doesn't cut, there's many system buses.
CPU bus doesn't cut it as there are many cpu busses if you count the
internal busses. I say FSB. I'm waiting for a better one from you.

AMD has used the term "I/O connection" when HT connects the CPU to an
I/O chipset; before Pentium Pro it was called system bus or IIRC main
bus or even main system bus.

So, I'm supposed to tell someone that the CPU clockspeed is determined
by the multiplier times the I/O connection speed. Right.:-) Would you
care to guess how many I/O connections there are in a basic PC system,
100, 1000, more than that?:-)

Depending on the architecture... But to say it's a FSB is simply *WRONG*.

I'll give you two options. Take your pick. (1) The internal bus to the
L2 cache is the back side bus. It just internal now. (2) Why must there
be a BSB at all? FSB is more of a designation for a certain bus rather
than actually describing it's location. It connects between the CPU and
chipset, just as it did on the Athlon (non 64) cpu's. And no one had
any complaints of calling it a FSB then. That's what AMD called it.

Again, the most important task of a FSB has been CPU-memory traffic -
the K8's HT doesn't do that... different topology... it's not an FSB.

Actually you can get a functioning system without external ssytem
memory.

I'd like to see that! BIOS won't post without system memory. BEEEEP!

I'd sure like to see you use a system without a video output, or
a storage device, or any of the other functions that go over the FSB.

No problem. Many servers have no video cards, keyboards, nor mice.
Storage devices are optional too (thin clients anyone), but memory isn't.
....not sure what your point is though (you have none; you loose).

They have them, but they're usually used in standalone places as
embedded. So, to me, the memory is not the most important function, but
even if it was, it's still just ONE of many.

Really? Without memory nothing works. That's hardly the point though.
The micro-architecture of systems has changed; so does the terminology.
Is this *really* that hard for you to comprehend?

It makes all the sense in the world defined as the connection between
the CPU and chipset. If not, tell me what does. All you people have
said it's not right, yet none of you have come up with a definitive
name for the bus. I wonder if that's why it's stuck around so long,
since I've seen it defined as just that, the bus between the CPU and
chipset.

No it makes no sense at all, since by definition, as the cohort of a
BSB, it carries CPU-memory traffic. To belabor the point: the BSB
carried CPU-L2 Cache traffic and on cache misses, the traffic is
"diverted" to FSB.

So, if it's not a FSB because the memory bus is now seperate, then the
memory bus is the FSB.

No, the FSB was named such because it was *not* the back-side cache bus.

Now I'm wondering what I'm going to call my car
when I take the removable dvd player out of it. Can't call it a car
anymore can I. Lost the cigar lighter, no more car.:-)

My guess is that you are as stupid as you make yourself out to be. Go
figure.

I don't know what you think a bus is. perhaps you should give your
definition of a bus, and not a school bus. Every definition of bus I've
seen says it an electrical pathway. So unless the HT link works without
electricty, it's a bus. As are all the others you claim aren't.

You are (apparently) confused by an electrician's bus and a computer
architect's bus. To some system experts/architects -- and there is at
least one of them arguing with you -- the term "bus" implies
"multi-drop bus", as is the case with Intel's GTL+ and AGTL+. It is
also often used more loosely, as is the case of K7. When it is used
with an accompanying qualifier, like PCI Bus, USB, FSB etc. it is
generally a specific designation for something which is well, even
formally, defined functionality. In K8, HT does not fulfill the same
functionality as FSB.

And there's at least one system expert/architect that disagrees with
yours, namely me. Oh, and the HT people also disagree with your expert
also. But what do they know, they just develope it.

Oh, and what would your credentials be to call yourself a system "expert"
or *architect*? You've certainly shown no such expertice here! The HT
architects certainly do *not* call the HT a bus, nor a front-side
*anything*.

snip - bedtime; zzzzzzz

--
Keith

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:59:53 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

wrote:
And now the killer punch. From;

http://www.hypertransport.org/consortium/cons_faqs.cfm

9. How does HyperTransport technology compare to other bus technologies?

As compared to older multidrop, shared buses such as PCI, PCI-X or SysAD,
HyperTransport provides a far simplier electrical interface, but with much
greater bandwidth. Instead of a wide, address/data/control multidrop,
shared bus such as implemented by PCI, PCI-X or SysAD technologies,
HyperTransport deploys narrow, but very fast unidirectional links to carry
both data and command information encoded into packets. Unidirectional
links provide significantly better signal integrity at high speeds and
enable much faster data transfers with low-power 1.2V LVDS signals. In
addition, link widths can be asymmetrical, meaning that 2 bit wide links
can easily connect to 8 bit wide links and 8 bit wide links can connect to
16 or 32 bit wide links and so on. Thus, the HyperTransport Technology
eliminates the problems associated with high speed parallel buses with
their many noisy bus signals (multiplexed data/address, and clock and
control signals) while providing scalable bandwidth wherever it is needed
in the system. As compared to newer serial I/O technologies such as
RapidIO and PCI Express, HyperTransport shares some raw bandwidth
characteristics, but is significantly different in some key
characteristics.
*****Read this pargraph carefully********

Err, and where exactly does it say that this is a bus? It says that
it REPLACES buses. From your link above:

You know where it said it. In the pararagraph that you cut out.:-)

quoting

7. What is HyperTransport technology?

HyperTransport chip-to-chip interconnect technology is a highly
optimized, high performance and low latency board-level architecture
for embedded and open- architecture systems. It provides up to 22.4
Gigabyte/second aggregate CPU to I/O or CPU to CPU bandwidth in a
highly efficient chip-to-chip technology that replaces existing
complex multi-level buses.

end quote


"I/O Link", "chip-to-chip interconnect" and "chip-to-chip technology"
are all used to describe it. Not "bus" because it isn't a bus.

It calls it a bus (a Front Side bus at that) in the portion you snipped
out and you know it. I don't know why you cut it out. it only makes you
look trollish. Here's some more info for you.

http://www.free-definition.com/Front-side-bus.html

http://www.free-definition.com/category/Computer_bus

--
KT133 MB, CPU @2400MHz (24x100): SIS755 MB CPU @2330MHz (10x233)
Need good help? Provide all system info with question.
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 23:18:00 -0400, keith wrote:

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 02:43:11 +0000, Wes Newell wrote:
Suggest you read this. One of thousands that claim it's a bus.

I suggest you understand what a bus is, and forget what the popular press
says.

http://www.free-definition.com/Front-side-bus.html

Yawn.

Typical response from someone that has no valid arguement.

I'm not wasting any more time citing crap for you. The proof is down
below, which you tend to ignore.

There is no such "proof". The definition of a "bus" is much older than
even you. A buss is a multi-drop utility. ...kinda like what you take to
work. A point-to-point facility is never referred to as a "bus".

You wouldn't know the definition if it bit you on the ass. But, just to
show how stupid this response is, the frontside bus was point to point, as
was the back side bus. The same could be said for the memory bus. IOW's
you don't know wtf you are talking about.

The cpu to system memory function was just one of many functions the FSB
does.

Nope. As you've been told a hundred times now, the FSB was so named
because Intel broke off the L2 cache from the system bus, and named the
cache interface the "back-side bus", this the memory and I/O bus became
the "front side". Those descriptions no longer fit the K8 system
architecture, so are discarded. ...no matter what the nitwits in the
popular press say.

What makes you think you have to keep repeating how the FSB name came
about. I think everyone that's been following this thread already knows
that. And the original description still fits, with an additional memory
bus. But wait, can that be called a bus by your "definition".:-)

it still has cpu to memory functions and feeds data to/from the
memory on the video card,

That's an I/O function.

And wtf do you call reads and writes to system memory, a fricking crystal
ball. You've dug yourself a hole so deep it appears you don't even know
what I/O is.

the cache memory on each hard drive

You really are stretching things thin.

No, I just don't turn a blind eye to facts.

memory on other cards, etc, etc, etc.

What cards? Memory mapped I/O? PLease! That's still I/O.

Christ, everything from the CPU is I/O. That's what they do, take Input,
give Output.:-)

What? The northbridge has much more in it than just a
memory
controller. And the K8 northbridge doesn't even have a memory
controller in it.

coughsplutter You just fell in.

I meant the chipset northbridge.

You fell in again.

Yep. I screwed up there. At least I can admit it.

You already seen them from the Hyprtansport Consortium. Who do you want
them from before you will believe it, God? Sorry, can't help you there.

You're the one who needs help! ...lots of it!

I think others will know who really needs the help.

So, I'm supposed to tell someone that the CPU clockspeed is determined
by the multiplier times the I/O connection speed. Right.:-) Would you
care to guess how many I/O connections there are in a basic PC system,
100, 1000, more than that?:-)

Depending on the architecture... But to say it's a FSB is simply
*WRONG*.

Then tell the Hypertransport consortium, not me. Although I do agree with
them.

Actually you can get a functioning system without external ssytem
memory.

I'd like to see that! BIOS won't post without system memory. BEEEEP!

Are you really this nearsighted. I do believe there are already single
chip proceessors on teh market that have the system memory on the cpu die.
If not, there will be. It's easy to do. I wasn't refering specifically to
current x86 systems.
I'd sure like to see you use a system without a video output, or a
storage device, or any of the other functions that go over the FSB.

No problem. Many servers have no video cards, keyboards, nor mice.

Not without a FSB. Even the lowly old serial data goes thru it. IOW's
there's no way to communicate with the cpu without it. I thought I put
that simple enough for even the most simpleminded people on earth to see.
I guess not.

Storage devices are optional too (thin clients anyone), but memory
isn't. ...not sure what your point is though (you have none; you loose).

Think a little deeper.:-)

They have them, but they're usually used in standalone places as
embedded. So, to me, the memory is not the most important function, but
even if it was, it's still just ONE of many.

Really? Without memory nothing works.

I said external system memory. i guess you need some remedial reading help
too.
That's hardly the point though.
The micro-architecture of systems has changed; so does the terminology.
Is this *really* that hard for you to comprehend?

It seems your the one having trouble comprehending.:-)

So, if it's not a FSB because the memory bus is now seperate, then the
memory bus is the FSB.

No, the FSB was named such because it was *not* the back-side cache bus.

ROFLMAO. Did you actually read what you typed.:-)

Now I'm wondering what I'm going to call my car when I take the
removable dvd player out of it. Can't call it a car anymore can I. Lost
the cigar lighter, no more car.:-)

My guess is that you are as stupid as you make yourself out to be.
Go figure.

Your post are funny. I'll give you that much. Totally fubar, but funny.

And there's at least one system expert/architect that disagrees with
yours, namely me. Oh, and the HT people also disagree with your expert
also. But what do they know, they just develope it.

Oh, and what would your credentials be to call yourself a system
"expert" or *architect*? You've certainly shown no such expertice here!
The HT architects certainly do *not* call the HT a bus, nor a
front-side *anything*.

Sure they do/did. You already seen it, but chosen to ignore it. I'll quote
it qagain just for you now that I know you're a little slow. it's even
implied in the question. Otherwise, the word 'other' would not be there.
it would simply be 'to bus technologies'.

9. How does HyperTransport technology compare to other bus technologies?

*this is the relevent part*
HyperTransport was designed to support both CPU-to-CPU communications as
well as CPU-to-I/O transfers, thus, it features very low latency.
Consequently, it has been incorporated into multiple x86 and MIPS
architecture processors as an integrated front-side bus.

--
KT133 MB, CPU @2400MHz (24x100): SIS755 MB CPU @2330MHz (10x233)
Need good help? Provide all system info with question.
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:59:53 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:29:38 -0400, keith wrote:

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:41:35 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 05:59:41 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

Not true at all. The original AMD Athlon had both a front-side bus,
connecting the CPU to the chipset, I/O and memory, and a backside bus
that connected the CPU to the cache chips on the Slot-A cartridge.
This was actually the last x86 CPU that I'm aware of which did have a
frontside bus (Intel had already gone to integrated cache by this
time).

Just because the cache is integrated doesn't mean the cache isn't on the
"back side" of the processor. The "back-side" concept was really a
separation of the cache from the memory busses.

Ok, I'll grant that point. I would still say that it's not really an
accurate way of describing things when your 'bus' is connecting one
half of a die to the other half of the die, but I suppose it is still
a 'bus' of sorts, and certainly would be on the "backside" (relative
to memory).

Why? There are *loads* of busses on processor chips, though most are
driven from a single end (bi-di gets messy). ...right down to the
power busses, though sometimes they're grids. ;-)

--
Keith

Tony Hill wrote:


It doesn't make any sense with the AthlonXP or the P4 and it makes
MUCH less sense with the Athlon64/Opteron. Just because it's a common
mistake doesn't make it any less of a mistake.


In matters of language, it does. Words lose their original meanings
and take on new meanings all the time. The notion of a bus as
something that can convey a signal is itself something of an
innovation, as a bus (or buss or busbar) was used in its original sense
to indicate something used to distribute power.

Using the term "front-side bus" to designate something other than what
the term referred to originally is an innovation, but it isn't wrong,
and it isn't even eccentric, because lots of people make the same
"mistake."

Only innovations in the ways that words are used aren't "mistakes,"
they are part of the natural process of by which language, and even
technical terminology, grows and evolves.

If there is confusion in a communication that results from a term being
used in a non-standard or ambiguous way, the confusion should be
addressed and the intended meaning clarified. Exploration of the
origins of a term and the different ways it has been used can be
enlightening and even fun.

Arguing over who is "right" and who is "wrong" just isn't any fun and
it enlightens no one.

RM