next Xbox 360 motherboard revision, JASPER, will have 65nm ATI Xenos GPU. Due in 2008

Xbox 360 secrets: After Falcon comes Jasper

By Dean Takahashi
Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 4:15 pm in Dean Takahashi, Dean and
Nooch on Gaming, General.

Microsoft didn't want you to know about Falcon, and it certainly
doesn't want you to know about its successor Jasper. But that's
another secret we have to unveil.

Jasper is the code name for the next motherboard for the Xbox 360. It
will becoming next August, in time for next year's holiday season.
Jasper is going to have a 65-nanometer graphics chip from ATI
Technologies, as well as smaller memory chips. That isn't much
information, but it's enough to tell us about their cost-reduction
plan. If you ask me, it's a bit of a slow pace.

I don't know why it will take Microsoft essentially three years to
cost reduce the size of the graphics chip through a manufacturing
shrink. It doesn't seem like they're in a hurry to launch a redesigned
Xbox 360 graphics chip, considering that Intel introduced its first 65-
nm chips a long time ago. ATI uses TSMC to make its chips out of
Taiwan, and TSMC hasn't been the fastest at moving to 65-nm
manufacturing. I understand these tasks are difficult and they take a
lot of engineering resources. Microsoft has had to divert a lot of
engineers to debugging problems with Xbox 360 reliability. Even so,
you would think that they would have moved faster, since the move to
65-nm graphics chip will likely be one of the best things they can do
to improve the reliability.

As readers of this blog know, Falcon is being used in Xbox 360s that
are currently rolling off the production lines. It has a 65-nm IBM
microprocessor on it, instead of the previous 90-nm version. It also
has built-in HDMI. It carries lower costs than the previous
motherboard, but not dramatically so. And Falcon has a 90-nm graphics
chip on it.

Here's something that Xbox 360 buyers will want to know. Both Falcon
and its predecessor Zephyr (used in the Xbox 360 Elite) have different
thermal solutions than the original Xbox 360. You've seen the heat
sinks in the cut-out photos posted elsewhere. The Microsoft engineers
believe those heat sinks will be sufficient as a solution for keeping
Xbox 360s from overheating. From their point of view, you don't have
to wait until Jasper to get a reliable machine.

From a neutral point of view, I would guess that Jasper would be more
reliable than Falcon on heat issues, and Falcon will be more reliable
than its predecessors. The Falcon board has the same old 90-nm
graphics chip on it. And many have pointed out that the big heat
problem in the Xbox 360 is due to the graphics chip. The Falcon board
will likely give off less heat. But the real serious heat saver looks
like it will come with Jasper.

I'm sure that Jasper will carry lower costs than Falcon. That's
because it will have a smaller graphics chip and smaller memory chips
as well. That translates into material savings, which means lower
costs. If you're wondering why you should care? Maybe you don't need
to care. But there are folks on the Falcon thread who want to know
this kind of information and here it is. Certainly, Microsoft will be
in a position to cut prices again by next August. If you recall, after
it got Falcon out the door, Microsoft cut $50 off the price of the
Xbox 360.

If I were Microsoft, I would try to pull in the date of Jasper as soon
as possible. What they need right now is a lower cost so that they can
be more competitive against the Wii and so they leave no openings for
Sony. As of now, the 65-nm graphics chip isn't done. They're still
working on it. Microsoft declined to comment, other than to say that
it constantly updates the components in the Xbox 360 but doesn't
comment on them.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:22:29 -0700, AirRaid
wrote:

Xbox 360 secrets: After Falcon comes Jasper

By Dean Takahashi
Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 4:15 pm in Dean Takahashi, Dean and
Nooch on Gaming, General.

Microsoft didn't want you to know about Falcon, and it certainly
doesn't want you to know about its successor Jasper. But that's
another secret we have to unveil.

Jasper is the code name for the next motherboard for the Xbox 360. It
will becoming next August, in time for next year's holiday season.
Jasper is going to have a 65-nanometer graphics chip from ATI
Technologies, as well as smaller memory chips. That isn't much
information, but it's enough to tell us about their cost-reduction
plan. If you ask me, it's a bit of a slow pace.

I don't know why it will take Microsoft essentially three years to
cost reduce the size of the graphics chip through a manufacturing
shrink. It doesn't seem like they're in a hurry to launch a redesigned
Xbox 360 graphics chip, considering that Intel introduced its first 65-
nm chips a long time ago. ATI uses TSMC to make its chips out of
Taiwan, and TSMC hasn't been the fastest at moving to 65-nm
manufacturing. I understand these tasks are difficult and they take a
lot of engineering resources. Microsoft has had to divert a lot of
engineers to debugging problems with Xbox 360 reliability. Even so,
you would think that they would have moved faster, since the move to
65-nm graphics chip will likely be one of the best things they can do
to improve the reliability.

As readers of this blog know, Falcon is being used in Xbox 360s that
are currently rolling off the production lines. It has a 65-nm IBM
microprocessor on it, instead of the previous 90-nm version. It also
has built-in HDMI. It carries lower costs than the previous
motherboard, but not dramatically so. And Falcon has a 90-nm graphics
chip on it.

Here's something that Xbox 360 buyers will want to know. Both Falcon
and its predecessor Zephyr (used in the Xbox 360 Elite) have different
thermal solutions than the original Xbox 360. You've seen the heat
sinks in the cut-out photos posted elsewhere. The Microsoft engineers
believe those heat sinks will be sufficient as a solution for keeping
Xbox 360s from overheating. From their point of view, you don't have
to wait until Jasper to get a reliable machine.

From a neutral point of view, I would guess that Jasper would be more
reliable than Falcon on heat issues, and Falcon will be more reliable
than its predecessors. The Falcon board has the same old 90-nm
graphics chip on it. And many have pointed out that the big heat
problem in the Xbox 360 is due to the graphics chip. The Falcon board
will likely give off less heat. But the real serious heat saver looks
like it will come with Jasper.

I'm sure that Jasper will carry lower costs than Falcon. That's
because it will have a smaller graphics chip and smaller memory chips
as well. That translates into material savings, which means lower
costs. If you're wondering why you should care? Maybe you don't need
to care. But there are folks on the Falcon thread who want to know
this kind of information and here it is. Certainly, Microsoft will be
in a position to cut prices again by next August. If you recall, after
it got Falcon out the door, Microsoft cut $50 off the price of the
Xbox 360.

If I were Microsoft, I would try to pull in the date of Jasper as soon
as possible. What they need right now is a lower cost so that they can
be more competitive against the Wii and so they leave no openings for
Sony. As of now, the 65-nm graphics chip isn't done. They're still
working on it. Microsoft declined to comment, other than to say that
it constantly updates the components in the Xbox 360 but doesn't
comment on them.

it's official, Bill Gates is spying on me.

he must be, having them name the new motherboard after my dog...

*cough*
--

gamertag: Chrisflynnuk
http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk
Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb
360, DS, PS2 and Saturn Games For Auction.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:22:29 -0700, AirRaid
wrote:

Xbox 360 secrets: After Falcon comes Jasper
[snip]

FFS. I thought the falcon mobos were going to have both the 65nm cpu
and gpu.

What I don't get is, most of the overheating problems resulting in the
RROD is due to the gpu popping off the mobo despite the solder holding
it in its place.

So, hmmmm, MS decides to place just the cooler running cpu only and
not the gpu? ****ing geniuses.

I disagree. Microsoft should not try to compete with the Wii. Does
Lexus compete with Toyota? Does BMW compete with Ford? No, different
class of product, different market segment. Microsoft and SONY should
acknowledge that the video game console market has expanded to a
point, like the auto industry, they produce the same kind of product,
but they aren't all competing for the same share.

Microsoft and SONY are competing for the same crowd. Regarding cost
reducing the 360's retail price. Microsoft has plenty of head room to
do this if they want. Their problem in reducing retail cost of the 360
has little to do with it's production cost (which has not been made
public, but reports are Microsoft making 10-15% profit off each system
sold) and a lot more to do with paying themselves back for the Red
Rings of Death write off. To counter this SONY was taking taking up to
50% loss on each PS3 sold at retail at launch...

In alt.games.video.xbox Holy Moses wrote:
What I don't get is, most of the overheating problems resulting in the
RROD is due to the gpu popping off the mobo despite the solder holding
it in its place.

That was a manufacturing flaw - not a flaw with the processors themselves.
There were also reports that there wasn't enough thermal paste being used,
which caused the heatsinks to not make good contact with the chips, also
causing overheating.

So, hmmmm, MS decides to place just the cooler running cpu only and
not the gpu? ****ing geniuses.

They can't replace what they don't have. The switchover to 65nm is still
an ongoing process in the chip industry. It's not as simple as walking
over to the fab and twisting the dial from "90nm" to "65nm" 65nm chips
require new machines and techniques, hence the seemingly "slow" rollouts.

The new manufacturing processes with regards to the solder and thermal
paste, as well as the new heatsink designs and their clamps should go a
long ways towards resolving the RROD problem.

Furthermore, even though the chip being replaced with a 65nm one is only
the main CPU, not the GPU, it will still produce less total heat, which
again should help prevent RRODs due to overheating.

--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.

You are not the first one to point this out:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9100

Remember, the die-shrink is not meant to add value for the end user. The
move to 65 nm is primarily to reduce cost, both in the chip itself and in
the form of less extravagant cooling. There's no reason for the CPU and GPU
die-shrinks to be coupled together, especially since the chips are probably
being made at different foundries. The CPU, being less complex, was probably
easier to shrink.

If the GPU is popping off the board, then it's an issue with the board
design or soldering process. PC cards like the ATi X1900XTX run
significantly hotter without any ill effects.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."

"Holy Moses" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:22:29 -0700, AirRaid
wrote:

Xbox 360 secrets: After Falcon comes Jasper
[snip]

FFS. I thought the falcon mobos were going to have both the 65nm cpu
and gpu.

What I don't get is, most of the overheating problems resulting in the
RROD is due to the gpu popping off the mobo despite the solder holding
it in its place.

So, hmmmm, MS decides to place just the cooler running cpu only and
not the gpu? ****ing geniuses.

On Oct 10, 11:33 am, RMZ wrote:
I disagree. Microsoft should not try to compete with the Wii. Does
Lexus compete with Toyota? Does BMW compete with Ford? No, different
class of product, different market segment. Microsoft and SONY should
acknowledge that the video game console market has expanded to a
point, like the auto industry, they produce the same kind of product,
but they aren't all competing for the same share.

Microsoft and SONY are competing for the same crowd. Regarding cost
reducing the 360's retail price. Microsoft has plenty of head room to
do this if they want. Their problem in reducing retail cost of the 360
has little to do with it's production cost (which has not been made
public, but reports are Microsoft making 10-15% profit off each system
sold) and a lot more to do with paying themselves back for the Red
Rings of Death write off. To counter this SONY was taking taking up to
50% loss on each PS3 sold at retail at launch...

Competing with the Wii may seem foolish, but the games that are done
well (Twilight Princess, Metroid) are extremely fun experiences even
for 'hardcore' gamers. Should more games continue in this strain, it
would be foolish to NOT buy a Wii.

On Oct 10, 6:31 pm, wrote:
On Oct 10, 11:33 am, RMZ wrote:

I disagree. Microsoft should not try to compete with the Wii. Does
Lexus compete with Toyota? Does BMW compete with Ford? No, different
class of product, different market segment. Microsoft and SONY should
acknowledge that the video game console market has expanded to a
point, like the auto industry, they produce the same kind of product,
but they aren't all competing for the same share.

Microsoft and SONY are competing for the same crowd. Regarding cost
reducing the 360's retail price. Microsoft has plenty of head room to
do this if they want. Their problem in reducing retail cost of the 360
has little to do with it's production cost (which has not been made
public, but reports are Microsoft making 10-15% profit off each system
sold) and a lot more to do with paying themselves back for the Red
Rings of Death write off. To counter this SONY was taking taking up to
50% loss on each PS3 sold at retail at launch...

Competing with the Wii may seem foolish, but the games that are done
well (Twilight Princess, Metroid) are extremely fun experiences even
for 'hardcore' gamers. Should more games continue in this strain, it
would be foolish to NOT buy a Wii.

Doesn't everyone already have one? I bought a Wii before the 360, I
play the 360 more... but I acknowledge the Wii's strength for what it
is and that is the most unique game interface of the lot.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:33:05 -0000, RMZ
wrote:

I disagree. Microsoft should not try to compete with the Wii. Does
Lexus compete with Toyota?

i'd hope not, be a bit like the Wii trying to compete with the DS.

--

gamertag: Chrisflynnuk
http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk
Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb
360, DS, PS2 and Saturn Games For Auction.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:15:29 -0400, "First of One"
wrote:

You are not the first one to point this out:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9100

Remember, the die-shrink is not meant to add value for the end user. The
move to 65 nm is primarily to reduce cost, both in the chip itself and in
the form of less extravagant cooling. There's no reason for the CPU and GPU
die-shrinks to be coupled together, especially since the chips are probably
being made at different foundries. The CPU, being less complex, was probably
easier to shrink.

If the GPU is popping off the board, then it's an issue with the board
design or soldering process. PC cards like the ATi X1900XTX run
significantly hotter without any ill effects.

they do, but at the same time it's not often that they're jammed half
an inch under the dvd drive either
--

gamertag: Chrisflynnuk
http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk
Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb
360, DS, PS2 and Saturn Games For Auction.