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hp elite kbd, keys not working



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 13th 17, 02:35 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Mike S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have any
experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so? I'm
going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any comments
would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike
  #2  
Old February 13th 17, 03:23 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

Mike S wrote:

I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have any
experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so? I'm
going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any comments
would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike


Keyboard that use rubber-like membranes with carbon patterns to short
across PCB contact points always wear out. The rubber-like compound
dries out and becomes more stiff. The "action" is the difference in
thickness around the protruding stub that suddenly collapses when flexed
beyond a certain point. Because of the physical wear of pressing the
carbonized membrane against metal contacts, the membrane's contacts wear
out (less carbon, less reliable contact). The more you type, the sooner
the membrane fails.

You would have to look inside the keyboard to see what technology was
used for the "switches". Some keyboards really do still use switches
which is why they are pricey. For a $30 wifi thin profile keyboard
(https://www.amazon.com/HP-Wireless-E...dp/B005HNHRA6),
that one is not using switches. It's a cheap wifi keyboard. Get
another one. If that's what you like, buy 2 so you have a spare on hand
when the first one breaks or goes flaky (again). A mechanical switched
keyboard will run about 5 times, or more, the cost of the one that you
bought (and most of the mechanicals are wired, not wifi like you got).

I also buy cheap[er] keyboard; i.e., no mechanical switches, just
membrane "switches". I buy 2 because the membrane keyboards do not
last. I figure that I'm lucky if the keyboard remains reliable (like
new) for 2 years, especially since I'm prone to pound on them
occasionally (if I got rid of my video games, I'd pound on the keyboards
much less often). I have a spare waiting in a drawer because I know
that membrane keyboards do not last. They are not built to be
repairable. With a mechanical switch keyboard, you can buy a new switch
and solder in a replacement key.

They aren't built to last. Look at the warranty. Be glad if the
product survives beyond then. They know the failure rate of their
devices at at which point in the curve to establish a warranty threshold
or how much to invest in hardware quality to get minimally beyond the
warranty threshold.

When was the last time you turned your keyboard upside down, held it
with one hand on one side, and banged it against your other hand and
then reversed the procedure to know out any crumbs, hair, or other crud
that got inside? What you have is not a waterproof keyboard. Crud will
get inside. If it manages to get under the membrane (between it and the
PCB contacts) then you aren't going to shake it out hence why most
warranties won't cover liquid damage. After banging out any crud that
got inside, blow it out using a duster can. Often hair and lint won't
shake out but you can it blown out. You'll have to blow from several
angles as the hair and lint may wrap around the stem of the key or cram
into places that require blowing from several directions.
  #3  
Old February 13th 17, 03:46 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

Mike S wrote:
I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have any
experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so? I'm
going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any comments
would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike


Keyboards use a scanning matrix.

For example, a chip could have a 7x17 matrix, using 24 pins.
One set of pins are sources, the others detect key closures.

When a "set" of keys die, they're probably sharing one of
those wires. Only if the contacts under a single key fail,
would you lose just one key. When you lose a set of keys,
that's a problem with a scanning wire or scanning wire input.

Keyboards can be N-key rollover, or 2-key lockout.
The N-key rollover, uses a diode per crosspoint
in the scanning matrix. It helps isolate one switch
closure from another, and prevents things such as
"ghosting" if three keys are pressed. Not many keyboards
spend an extra five bucks to do that. (I built my own
keyboard, and included those diodes on each switch position.)

As for the wiring pattern of the "matrix", the letter
assignments don't have to make a lot of sense. I needed
a fair number of feedthru wires on my PCB layout, to allow wiring
connections around one another. My home-made PCB didn't have
plated vias, so when a signal went from one layer to another,
a wire was soldered through a hole, to join the connections
together.

The scanning matrix is generally high impedance. Some of the
scanning wires might have been up around 100K ohms or so.
This means, it might not take a lot of dirt or debris to
upset it. Maybe this was an attempt to reduce emissions
from the keyboard or something.

In addition, the scanning process uses "debounce". When the key
closes a scanning matrix location, the conductor does not immediately
sit flat on the connection point. There tend to be springs in
keyboards, flexible materials, and they cause contact bounce. The
keyboard only declares "closure", after three keyboard matrix
scans in a row, show the same closure pattern. Then the keyboard
knows "it's a sure thing", once it has eliminated the possibility
of bounce. The bounce interval selected, should exceed any possible
spring time constants.

The closest thing to a "bounceless" contact, might be
keys with Hall probes and hysteresis. And that would be
an expensive keyboard. The keys in that case, use magnetism
to indicate their presence. The Hall probe sense a magnet
is pressed against it, or not. No contacts to wear out,
but the keys themselves can eventually mechanically fail.

You can still get 10 million cycles from a membrane keyboard.
That's what some of the manufacturers will claim, and there
are machines you can use to verify lifetime. We used to have
two big machines at work, which used to bash on keyboard-type
devices as part of reliability testing. I only got to see
those on a walking tour, so never got to ask any questions
about why the machines were so big.

Paul

  #4  
Old February 13th 17, 04:05 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Mike S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

On 2/12/2017 6:23 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Mike S wrote:

I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have any
experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so? I'm
going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any comments
would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike


Keyboard that use rubber-like membranes with carbon patterns to short
across PCB contact points always wear out. The rubber-like compound
dries out and becomes more stiff. The "action" is the difference in
thickness around the protruding stub that suddenly collapses when flexed
beyond a certain point. Because of the physical wear of pressing the
carbonized membrane against metal contacts, the membrane's contacts wear
out (less carbon, less reliable contact). The more you type, the sooner
the membrane fails.

You would have to look inside the keyboard to see what technology was
used for the "switches". Some keyboards really do still use switches
which is why they are pricey. For a $30 wifi thin profile keyboard
(https://www.amazon.com/HP-Wireless-E...dp/B005HNHRA6),
that one is not using switches. It's a cheap wifi keyboard. Get
another one. If that's what you like, buy 2 so you have a spare on hand
when the first one breaks or goes flaky (again). A mechanical switched
keyboard will run about 5 times, or more, the cost of the one that you
bought (and most of the mechanicals are wired, not wifi like you got).

I also buy cheap[er] keyboard; i.e., no mechanical switches, just
membrane "switches". I buy 2 because the membrane keyboards do not
last. I figure that I'm lucky if the keyboard remains reliable (like
new) for 2 years, especially since I'm prone to pound on them
occasionally (if I got rid of my video games, I'd pound on the keyboards
much less often). I have a spare waiting in a drawer because I know
that membrane keyboards do not last. They are not built to be
repairable. With a mechanical switch keyboard, you can buy a new switch
and solder in a replacement key.

They aren't built to last. Look at the warranty. Be glad if the
product survives beyond then. They know the failure rate of their
devices at at which point in the curve to establish a warranty threshold
or how much to invest in hardware quality to get minimally beyond the
warranty threshold.

When was the last time you turned your keyboard upside down, held it
with one hand on one side, and banged it against your other hand and
then reversed the procedure to know out any crumbs, hair, or other crud
that got inside? What you have is not a waterproof keyboard. Crud will
get inside. If it manages to get under the membrane (between it and the
PCB contacts) then you aren't going to shake it out hence why most
warranties won't cover liquid damage. After banging out any crud that
got inside, blow it out using a duster can. Often hair and lint won't
shake out but you can it blown out. You'll have to blow from several
angles as the hair and lint may wrap around the stem of the key or cram
into places that require blowing from several directions.


thanks for the detailed post! I tried turning it upside down, blowing it
off, knocking it around a bit, none of that worked. I just took it apart
and flooded the kbd with soapy water, sloshed it around, rinsed it,
repeat 3x, then flush w/clear water 3x, it's sitting upside down in a
warm spot for a few days now to dry out. But as you say it's probably
just worn out. Now that I think about it, it is closer to 2 yrs old than
I remembered, so if it continues to malfunction I'll just keep it for
parts and buy another. Thanks again. Mike

  #5  
Old February 13th 17, 04:08 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Mike S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

On 2/12/2017 6:46 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike S wrote:
I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have
any experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so?
I'm going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any
comments would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike


Keyboards use a scanning matrix.

For example, a chip could have a 7x17 matrix, using 24 pins.
One set of pins are sources, the others detect key closures.

When a "set" of keys die, they're probably sharing one of
those wires. Only if the contacts under a single key fail,
would you lose just one key. When you lose a set of keys,
that's a problem with a scanning wire or scanning wire input.

Keyboards can be N-key rollover, or 2-key lockout.
The N-key rollover, uses a diode per crosspoint
in the scanning matrix. It helps isolate one switch
closure from another, and prevents things such as
"ghosting" if three keys are pressed. Not many keyboards
spend an extra five bucks to do that. (I built my own
keyboard, and included those diodes on each switch position.)

As for the wiring pattern of the "matrix", the letter
assignments don't have to make a lot of sense. I needed
a fair number of feedthru wires on my PCB layout, to allow wiring
connections around one another. My home-made PCB didn't have
plated vias, so when a signal went from one layer to another,
a wire was soldered through a hole, to join the connections
together.

The scanning matrix is generally high impedance. Some of the
scanning wires might have been up around 100K ohms or so.
This means, it might not take a lot of dirt or debris to
upset it. Maybe this was an attempt to reduce emissions
from the keyboard or something.

In addition, the scanning process uses "debounce". When the key
closes a scanning matrix location, the conductor does not immediately
sit flat on the connection point. There tend to be springs in
keyboards, flexible materials, and they cause contact bounce. The
keyboard only declares "closure", after three keyboard matrix
scans in a row, show the same closure pattern. Then the keyboard
knows "it's a sure thing", once it has eliminated the possibility
of bounce. The bounce interval selected, should exceed any possible
spring time constants.

The closest thing to a "bounceless" contact, might be
keys with Hall probes and hysteresis. And that would be
an expensive keyboard. The keys in that case, use magnetism
to indicate their presence. The Hall probe sense a magnet
is pressed against it, or not. No contacts to wear out,
but the keys themselves can eventually mechanically fail.

You can still get 10 million cycles from a membrane keyboard.
That's what some of the manufacturers will claim, and there
are machines you can use to verify lifetime. We used to have
two big machines at work, which used to bash on keyboard-type
devices as part of reliability testing. I only got to see
those on a walking tour, so never got to ask any questions
about why the machines were so big.

Paul


Paul, thanks for the interesting details. Does your kbd have good
'action', for me that means not having to press the keys too far, or
with too much pressure, so a light touch allows faster speed? Did you
post the procedure on lifehacker or anywhere? And what did your cost if
I may ask?

  #6  
Old February 13th 17, 05:24 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

Mike S wrote:
On 2/12/2017 6:46 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike S wrote:
I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have
any experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so?
I'm going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any
comments would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike


Keyboards use a scanning matrix.

For example, a chip could have a 7x17 matrix, using 24 pins.
One set of pins are sources, the others detect key closures.

When a "set" of keys die, they're probably sharing one of
those wires. Only if the contacts under a single key fail,
would you lose just one key. When you lose a set of keys,
that's a problem with a scanning wire or scanning wire input.

Keyboards can be N-key rollover, or 2-key lockout.
The N-key rollover, uses a diode per crosspoint
in the scanning matrix. It helps isolate one switch
closure from another, and prevents things such as
"ghosting" if three keys are pressed. Not many keyboards
spend an extra five bucks to do that. (I built my own
keyboard, and included those diodes on each switch position.)

As for the wiring pattern of the "matrix", the letter
assignments don't have to make a lot of sense. I needed
a fair number of feedthru wires on my PCB layout, to allow wiring
connections around one another. My home-made PCB didn't have
plated vias, so when a signal went from one layer to another,
a wire was soldered through a hole, to join the connections
together.

The scanning matrix is generally high impedance. Some of the
scanning wires might have been up around 100K ohms or so.
This means, it might not take a lot of dirt or debris to
upset it. Maybe this was an attempt to reduce emissions
from the keyboard or something.

In addition, the scanning process uses "debounce". When the key
closes a scanning matrix location, the conductor does not immediately
sit flat on the connection point. There tend to be springs in
keyboards, flexible materials, and they cause contact bounce. The
keyboard only declares "closure", after three keyboard matrix
scans in a row, show the same closure pattern. Then the keyboard
knows "it's a sure thing", once it has eliminated the possibility
of bounce. The bounce interval selected, should exceed any possible
spring time constants.

The closest thing to a "bounceless" contact, might be
keys with Hall probes and hysteresis. And that would be
an expensive keyboard. The keys in that case, use magnetism
to indicate their presence. The Hall probe sense a magnet
is pressed against it, or not. No contacts to wear out,
but the keys themselves can eventually mechanically fail.

You can still get 10 million cycles from a membrane keyboard.
That's what some of the manufacturers will claim, and there
are machines you can use to verify lifetime. We used to have
two big machines at work, which used to bash on keyboard-type
devices as part of reliability testing. I only got to see
those on a walking tour, so never got to ask any questions
about why the machines were so big.

Paul


Paul, thanks for the interesting details. Does your kbd have good
'action', for me that means not having to press the keys too far, or
with too much pressure, so a light touch allows faster speed? Did you
post the procedure on lifehacker or anywhere? And what did your cost if
I may ask?


This was a long long time ago, back when I was working on my
TMS9900 project (yes, the ceramic one with gold plated pins).
I actually got this running. Considering the construction
techniques, it's a miracle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS9900

The keyboard would be considered "totally irrelevant" to todays
computing - no Windows key :-) The basic key matrix was from Jameco.
I did a PCB that was at least 12" wide and 6" deep. Copper tracks
were drawn with India Ink, etched in ferric chloride, and so on.
I didn't even use Photoresist. That was perhaps the largest PCB
I ever made by hand. Transferring the drill pattern to the
PCB was... interesting.

(The layout would be similar to this one... Very basic QUERTY.)

http://www.applefritter.com/sites/de...es/fig2-17.jpg

The really fun part, is you don't insert the keys into the PCB
one at a time. The keys come in a plastic frame, so you have
to manipulate the frame as one monolithic unit. You bring the
PCB up to the base of the keyboard. Well, guess what ? A
hundred-plus springy wires have to be poked into the PCB holes.
I used things like a bicycle spoke, to manipulate the legs on
the keys and guide them into the holes (one... at... a... time...).
It took me around two hours to finally "home" the key matrix,
into the PCB. Then solder it into place, so it could not escape :-)

That keyboard is still around here somewhere. I've lost track
of it.

It's the principles I learned while building it, that stuck
with me. The keyboard itself never saw a lot of usage. The
computer had no software. You hand-assembled code using the
instruction set documents. So there wasn't much chance of
"doing Notepad" with the thing. It was barely a computer.

Also, the concepts have slightly changed since then. Those
keyboard encoders only had "key down" codes. If you typed
the letter "Q", that byte of data was sent across a parallel
ribbon cable, along with a strobe signal. Whereas modern
keyboards send "key_down" and "key_up" codes, as a function
of whether the key is still depressed or not. The basic
functional description remains the same, but some of the
details are different. You have a better ability to keep track
of what is going on, with the modern keyboard.

Paul
  #7  
Old February 13th 17, 09:57 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Kenny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

"Mike S" wrote in message news
I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have any
experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so? I'm
going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any comments
would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgP90sO2AKs
http://support.hp.com/us-en/product/...yboard/3707817

Clean all the muck out then use switch cleaner, I use Servisol, or isopropyl
alcohol to clean pads.

Kenny


  #8  
Old February 13th 17, 11:30 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Mike S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

On 2/13/2017 12:57 AM, Kenny wrote:
"Mike S" wrote in message news
I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have any
experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so? I'm
going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any comments
would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgP90sO2AKs
http://support.hp.com/us-en/product/...yboard/3707817

Clean all the muck out then use switch cleaner, I use Servisol, or
isopropyl alcohol to clean pads.

Kenny


Good idea, I'll use isopropyl alcohol, thanks.

  #9  
Old February 13th 17, 11:31 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Mike S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default hp elite kbd, keys not working

On 2/12/2017 8:24 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike S wrote:
On 2/12/2017 6:46 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike S wrote:
I bought an HP elite v2 kbd because it has such great action, it's the
fastest kbd I've ever used. After about a year the End key stopped
working, today the C, D and E keys stopped working. Does anyone have
any experience with these kbds? Do they die off after a year or so?
I'm going to take it apart and see if there are any easy fixes, any
comments would be interesting to hear.
TIA,
Mike

Keyboards use a scanning matrix.

For example, a chip could have a 7x17 matrix, using 24 pins.
One set of pins are sources, the others detect key closures.

When a "set" of keys die, they're probably sharing one of
those wires. Only if the contacts under a single key fail,
would you lose just one key. When you lose a set of keys,
that's a problem with a scanning wire or scanning wire input.

Keyboards can be N-key rollover, or 2-key lockout.
The N-key rollover, uses a diode per crosspoint
in the scanning matrix. It helps isolate one switch
closure from another, and prevents things such as
"ghosting" if three keys are pressed. Not many keyboards
spend an extra five bucks to do that. (I built my own
keyboard, and included those diodes on each switch position.)

As for the wiring pattern of the "matrix", the letter
assignments don't have to make a lot of sense. I needed
a fair number of feedthru wires on my PCB layout, to allow wiring
connections around one another. My home-made PCB didn't have
plated vias, so when a signal went from one layer to another,
a wire was soldered through a hole, to join the connections
together.

The scanning matrix is generally high impedance. Some of the
scanning wires might have been up around 100K ohms or so.
This means, it might not take a lot of dirt or debris to
upset it. Maybe this was an attempt to reduce emissions
from the keyboard or something.

In addition, the scanning process uses "debounce". When the key
closes a scanning matrix location, the conductor does not immediately
sit flat on the connection point. There tend to be springs in
keyboards, flexible materials, and they cause contact bounce. The
keyboard only declares "closure", after three keyboard matrix
scans in a row, show the same closure pattern. Then the keyboard
knows "it's a sure thing", once it has eliminated the possibility
of bounce. The bounce interval selected, should exceed any possible
spring time constants.

The closest thing to a "bounceless" contact, might be
keys with Hall probes and hysteresis. And that would be
an expensive keyboard. The keys in that case, use magnetism
to indicate their presence. The Hall probe sense a magnet
is pressed against it, or not. No contacts to wear out,
but the keys themselves can eventually mechanically fail.

You can still get 10 million cycles from a membrane keyboard.
That's what some of the manufacturers will claim, and there
are machines you can use to verify lifetime. We used to have
two big machines at work, which used to bash on keyboard-type
devices as part of reliability testing. I only got to see
those on a walking tour, so never got to ask any questions
about why the machines were so big.

Paul


Paul, thanks for the interesting details. Does your kbd have good
'action', for me that means not having to press the keys too far, or
with too much pressure, so a light touch allows faster speed? Did you
post the procedure on lifehacker or anywhere? And what did your cost
if I may ask?


This was a long long time ago, back when I was working on my
TMS9900 project (yes, the ceramic one with gold plated pins).
I actually got this running. Considering the construction
techniques, it's a miracle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS9900

The keyboard would be considered "totally irrelevant" to todays
computing - no Windows key :-) The basic key matrix was from Jameco.
I did a PCB that was at least 12" wide and 6" deep. Copper tracks
were drawn with India Ink, etched in ferric chloride, and so on.
I didn't even use Photoresist. That was perhaps the largest PCB
I ever made by hand. Transferring the drill pattern to the
PCB was... interesting.

(The layout would be similar to this one... Very basic QUERTY.)

http://www.applefritter.com/sites/de...es/fig2-17.jpg


The really fun part, is you don't insert the keys into the PCB
one at a time. The keys come in a plastic frame, so you have
to manipulate the frame as one monolithic unit. You bring the
PCB up to the base of the keyboard. Well, guess what ? A
hundred-plus springy wires have to be poked into the PCB holes.
I used things like a bicycle spoke, to manipulate the legs on
the keys and guide them into the holes (one... at... a... time...).
It took me around two hours to finally "home" the key matrix,
into the PCB. Then solder it into place, so it could not escape :-)

That keyboard is still around here somewhere. I've lost track
of it.

It's the principles I learned while building it, that stuck
with me. The keyboard itself never saw a lot of usage. The
computer had no software. You hand-assembled code using the
instruction set documents. So there wasn't much chance of
"doing Notepad" with the thing. It was barely a computer.

Also, the concepts have slightly changed since then. Those
keyboard encoders only had "key down" codes. If you typed
the letter "Q", that byte of data was sent across a parallel
ribbon cable, along with a strobe signal. Whereas modern
keyboards send "key_down" and "key_up" codes, as a function
of whether the key is still depressed or not. The basic
functional description remains the same, but some of the
details are different. You have a better ability to keep track
of what is going on, with the modern keyboard.

Paul


That was an ambitious project. Yes being able to detect the keydown or
keyup is useful in programming.

 




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