What recourse do NVidia owners have?

"i'm_tired" wrote in message
news:qw9ab.487871$YN5.332122@sccrnsc01...

Certainly not trying to be mean. When someone with the proper experience,
education, and first-hand knowledge begins asking such questions or making
such claims, I'll pay attention (and some respectable people in the
industry
have indeed made some of the same commentary for many reasons). But, when
a
fellow who read a few web pages and learned how to parrot 3 or 4 posters
here and on web forums makes claims he doesn't have the technical
expertise
to even own his own opinion about, I must question it. - - And the same
goes
to the bizarre claims about game programming that the OP made. Anyone
with
even a semester of Java or VB or C+ knows about modules and understands
that
certain packages of code can be created for the intention of re-use (or to
be called to use) under whatever circumstances deem it necessary.

Well, truthfully I have had some computer programming classes, but it's
not my thing, even though I generally know my way around the innards of
computers and can set up my LAN, etc.. I'm more interested in computer art
and music, and I've made a few textures and models for various games
(Microsoft Train Simulator, Freedom Force).

BTW, what does reusable code have to do with hardware that isn't up to the
task?

Does that mean that web forums and usenet news
groups should be disrupted by ATI fanboys and ATI employees with all this
trolling?

I'm not an ATI fanboy, and I'm certainly not an ATI employee.

When are the users of this particular NG going to start using
their kill filters on those who keep discussion away from the actual topic
here? If you looked for this NG because of a technical problem with your
nVidia product and found all of these threads where no actual discussion
of
nVidia video cards is going on.......... well, what would you do? It has
become nearly impossible to get good info here.
/rant

Hey, I'm just a consumer that feels screwed. We are less than 14 days
away from having the first big DX 9 game released. What is NVidia going to
do about it? I'm certainly not going to be playing Halo looking like this:

http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/...el50/shot2.htm

Note the washed out colors. I showed this picture to several non-gamers,
and even they clearly preffered the ATI images over the NVidia Detonator 50
images.

We aren't talking about minor image quality differences like you get from
using different DAC's, having an uncalibrated monitor, or even a flaw in
anisotropic filtering. We're talking about image quality differences that
anybody can see.

"magnulus" wrote in message
...


So what can NVidia owners do? Is there enough grounding for a
class-action lawsuit?

You are really ridiculous thinking that you have grounds to claim damages
based on the requirements of a product that doesn't even exist yet.

Not to mention the same sense of entitlement that you display with
foreknowledge. You like facts so much, here's a good one:

Fact:

1) People who buy hardware expressly to run software that doesn't exist yet
are foolish.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 03:15:06 GMT, "McGrandpa"
wrote:


Hm. I'm using the 44.03 drivers and XP Pro. What problems am I to be
looking for?

My video-editing software crashed erratically with 44.03 and XP Pro
even after a clean install. Not often, just enough to be worrisome.
Could not come up with a repeatable crash sequence. However,
problem totally gone with 45.23. Also gone with 43.45. Go figure......

John Lewis

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:37:16 +0100, "Dam6"
wrote:


It simply seems to me that Nvidia have said a few similar things and you
cannot simply write a driver that reduces quality and then say, 'there you
go, fixed it!' There might be a problem with the hardware and I personally
should read more technical reviews that I am sure will appear shortly. If
Nvidia knew that their cards would not function properly within the DX9
architecture, they should have done more.

Direct X has been one of the most amazing unifications

Sorry, dis-unification...........
Unlike OpenGL, DirectX is not an encapsulated API, targeted
for diverse hardware and OSs. It solely runs under a specific
group of OS from Microsloth, and used to require lots of
special-casing for specific hardware in the driver interface code
to the API. That situation has improved with recent releases
but more work still needs to be done.

to happen inside a
PC.... maybe forever. Open GL, umm? does anyone use it? Nvidia's
language? Who cares? (I might be a little naive with those comments so
please forgive me) I simply want to install a game and have the maximum
features and eye candy right there. No questions. We may never need Direct
X10 but we all know that new features require new implementation, thus new
cards.


I'll take nVidia today over Ati not because of any FX5900 ability to
show off gameplay-irrelevant gloss in HL2, but because I can run all
of my existing DirectX games on my FX5900/45.23 with nary a glitch,
or a false-shadow. Has Ati finally sorted out the shadow problem
in JK2....... sorry, the game is too old for Ati to pay any serious
attention to that trivial issue... Ati is too busy optimizing their
driver code for HL2.....

A friend has recently upgraded from a ti-4200 to a Rad 9600 Pro. In
Battlefield 1942 he has said that certain effects were simply not present
with the GF.

Which ones ? Please be specific............otherwise you blow
irrelevant hear-say..............

John Lewis

magnulus wrote:
"i'm_tired" wrote in message

snip
BTW, what does reusable code have to do with hardware that isn't up
to the task?
snip

Uhh. Didn't you say that smaller software houses would suffer due to having
to write more code to support the nVidia product? Isn't that exaclty what
you claimed? I really don't want to come off like I'm trying to flame you
here, so don't get me wrong, but please try to remember what you wrote. It
was, 'in fact' (pun intended), your "third fact" in your post that began
this thread. I'm merely showing that your "fact" is bunk.

Modules are used in all object programming and very very often in 3D games.
Re-usable arrays or re-usable commands that are specific to different peices
of hardware are quite common. Look at the interview with Carmack about
Doom3 and the bit of chat about programming the precision level necessities.
He says he has a set of code friendly to ATI and another set friendly to
nVidia to produce acceptable results for his game and both major video card
manufacturers. That is very very common and that sort of programming is
most likely done with re-usable code and maybe something as simple as an if
statement

if
{
object module = ATI vid board
then go to ATI specific code
else if
object module = nVidia board
goto nVidia specific code
}
endif

"Mark Nichols" wrote in message
...

"Dam6" wrote in message
...
where you could purchase it
and quite literally won't be for sale probably until the Christmas
season?

Major snippage

if your going to give someone your money, you have to know that it is
worthwhile and you are getting what you paid for.
In the golden ages when Nvidia had just released the TNT2 and then the
Ultra, 3DFX stated that 32bit colour would not take off. Opps, it did,
now
where are they?

It simply seems to me that Nvidia have said a few similar things and you
cannot simply write a driver that reduces quality and then say, 'there
you
go, fixed it!' There might be a problem with the hardware and I
personally
should read more technical reviews that I am sure will appear shortly.
If
Nvidia knew that their cards would not function properly within the DX9
architecture, they should have done more.

Direct X has been one of the most amazing unifications to happen inside
a
PC.... maybe forever. Open GL, umm? does anyone use it? Nvidia's
language? Who cares? (I might be a little naive with those comments so
please forgive me) I simply want to install a game and have the maximum
features and eye candy right there. No questions. We may never need
Direct
X10 but we all know that new features require new implementation, thus
new
cards.

A friend has recently upgraded from a ti-4200 to a Rad 9600 Pro. In
Battlefield 1942 he has said that certain effects were simply not
present
with the GF. That game is not new? Not Direct X9! He has noticed
other
minor things. So how far does the optimisation go?

As I said, if your going to give someone your money, you have to know
that
it is worthwhile and you are getting what you paid for.



Ummm, yeah who uses OpenGL, well actually ID does... Doom III will use it,
and it won't even touch D3D9...

------
Mark



Quake 3 Arena! Direct x. Quake 2... Direct x. Played more or less all of
Ids games using Direct X and simply overlooked OpenGL.

Then again, I did play Quake using OpenGL

"ho alexandre" wrote in message
...
Dam6 wrote:
If
Nvidia knew that their cards would not function properly within the DX9
architecture, they should have done more.

Well, nVidia say they are at the moment. Isn't that fantastic ?



Open GL, umm? does anyone use it?

Well, nearly all 3D games except Morrowind, HL2, Eidos games (Tomb
Raider & Hitman) and MS games (Halo & SplinterCell) ?
that is : all games on Quake2/3 engine (Half-Life1, Soldier of Fortune2,
Medal of Honor), Serious Sam, UT2003, Doom3, Tribes3 are just recent
examples.



--
XandreX
/I'm that kind of people your parents warned you about/


Evenin!

I meant does anyone actually 'use' the option of OpenGL instead of selecting
Direct x......

I can only really remember using OpenGL within Quake all those years ago....

Nice

"John Lewis" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:37:16 +0100, "Dam6"
wrote:


It simply seems to me that Nvidia have said a few similar things and you
cannot simply write a driver that reduces quality and then say, 'there
you
go, fixed it!' There might be a problem with the hardware and I
personally
should read more technical reviews that I am sure will appear shortly.
If
Nvidia knew that their cards would not function properly within the DX9
architecture, they should have done more.

Direct X has been one of the most amazing unifications

Sorry, dis-unification...........
Unlike OpenGL, DirectX is not an encapsulated API, targeted
for diverse hardware and OSs. It solely runs under a specific
group of OS from Microsloth, and used to require lots of
special-casing for specific hardware in the driver interface code
to the API. That situation has improved with recent releases
but more work still needs to be done.

to happen inside a
PC.... maybe forever. Open GL, umm? does anyone use it? Nvidia's
language? Who cares? (I might be a little naive with those comments so
please forgive me) I simply want to install a game and have the maximum
features and eye candy right there. No questions. We may never need
Direct
X10 but we all know that new features require new implementation, thus
new
cards.


I'll take nVidia today over Ati not because of any FX5900 ability to
show off gameplay-irrelevant gloss in HL2, but because I can run all
of my existing DirectX games on my FX5900/45.23 with nary a glitch,
or a false-shadow. Has Ati finally sorted out the shadow problem
in JK2....... sorry, the game is too old for Ati to pay any serious
attention to that trivial issue... Ati is too busy optimizing their
driver code for HL2.....

A friend has recently upgraded from a ti-4200 to a Rad 9600 Pro. In
Battlefield 1942 he has said that certain effects were simply not present
with the GF.

Which ones ? Please be specific............otherwise you blow
irrelevant hear-say..............

John Lewis


The main point that he noticed was the smoke from guns firing and certain
sky detail. Nothing major really.

I will ask more questions!

"magnulus" wrote:
So what's the big deal with Valve? Surely not every effect in the game
needs full precision. It couldn't possibly be that hard to code some
effects partial precision, and some full precision.

But isn't there a DX7, DX8, DX8.1, fixed FX mode and DX9 mode in the
game already? How backwards do we need to get? DX5 full precision
mode?

"i'm_tired" wrote in message news:qw9ab.487871$YN5.332122@sccrnsc01...
[snippity snip]

I'm still wondering where the Ansio and AA hype came from LOL. 9 out of 10
people can't tell the difference between AA on or off from a screenshot of
most games (granted there are many areas of many maps of many scenes of many
games where jaggies appear if one really looks for them... yadda yadda
yadda) let alone while playing a game. Sure thing: ATI seems to be doing a
really good job of making cards that are powerful enough to see little
effect from AA and Ansio. Sure thing, I read the same 5 or 6 guys over and
over and over and over in this NG saying that they use AA and Ansio and that
it is so much better and that they would never even try to play a game with
out it (and a bunch of other total BS). - - However, do you really think
that the FX-5900 Ultra (with whatever driver release) won't be able to play
HL2? Or Doom3? Even if it is slower with AA and Ansistropic filtering and
any other goodie turned on, so what? Will it be unplayable? Hardly.

WOW... could your opinion of the average gamer be any lower? Granted
AA/AF doesn't produce a night and day different in image quality, but
the improvement in visual quality is significant enough to be readily
noticeable in all the recent games I've played (Fifa 2k3, Madden 2k4,
Unreal 2, Freelancer, C&C:Generals, RTCW, NOLF 2). This is especially
true (in my experience) after you've stuck with AA/AF for some time,
then revert back to no filtering. Once you get used to it, you really
don't want to go back. But hey, I guess I must be one of those select
10% that can actually notice the difference.

As far as the FX-5900 not being able to play HL2 or Doom3... even I
don't believe that. It'll be able to run both games fine, the image
quality and frame rates will just be inferior to that of ATI's line of
DX9 cards. And if all else fails, it can fall back on DX8 extensions.
For the NVidia driver team, I would think it's a matter of how much
image quality they're willing to sacrifice with their "driver
optimizations" to get a playable/consistent frame rate.

Terence