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#21
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
"Damaeus" wrote:
Paul: The advertising mentions Intel. And possibly, because the modules are equipped with optional Intel XMP profiles. http://www.kingston.com/us/memory/hy...s/quad_channel http://www.kingston.com/datasheets/K...1D3K4_16GX.pdf JEDEC: DDR3-1333 CL9-9-9 @1.5V Wow! I'll have to check the BIOS again, but automatic settings have the voltage set to around 1.288 or something like that. Maybe too little voltage is the problem. Way too low. According to the Kingston, the *non-overclocked* voltage is 1.5. For the OVERCLOCKED setup, Kingston says to use 1.65V. You said before it was 1.4. Too low. Now it's even worse? |
#22
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
In news:alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, VanguardLH posted on
Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:12:24 -0600 the following: "Damaeus" wrote: Wow! I'll have to check the BIOS again, but automatic settings have the voltage set to around 1.288 or something like that. Maybe too little voltage is the problem. Way too low. According to the Kingston, the *non-overclocked* voltage is 1.5. For the OVERCLOCKED setup, Kingston says to use 1.65V. You said before it was 1.4. Too low. Now it's even worse? That's what it was showing when the manual entry was at 1.4. When I rebooted to the BIOS after setting it back on automatic, it was at 1.488. I put up a few pages of the BIOS he http://home.earthlink.net/~damaeus/crosshair.html To be safe, I may just take it off automatic and put it on 1.5 volts. What's also strange, but maybe it's normal, is that the voltage reading on four settings was fluctuating. I watched for a few seconds in the Voltage Monitor and got fluctuations in these readings: VCore 1.284 - 1.296 CPU/NB 1.197 - 1.230 HT Voltage 1.204 - 1.210 NB Voltage 1.105 - 1.111 Damaeus |
#23
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
In news:alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, VanguardLH posted on
Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:08:59 -0600 the following: "Damaeus" wrote: Boosting the speed to 2133 MHz and timing 11-12-11-30 increased stability for about an hour and a half. Since then I've lowered the speed back to automatic 1333 MHz and automatic 9-9-9-24. I still got a reboot there after about 3.5 hours, but it's strange how it just decided to stop rebooting so quickly with the same timings I had at first. I then enabled an "optimize for 4 GB DIMMs", which lengthens the timing a little to 10-12-11-28, and I can't be sure yet until I run it for more than 3.5 hours, but it seems to have increased the stability some more. Here's what the settings look like with 4GB DIMM settings loaded: http://home.earthlink.net/~damaeus/i...-crosshair.jpg I've seen some memory brands that overclock their modules (by the spec they sell at). You are led to believe the memory module is rated for those specs but those are actually overclocked specs advertized for the product so they can charge you more. When they claim the unit has been tested at the overclocked values, that's not true. They have not been "burned" for hours to test stability nor has every unit been tested but just a sample. Yes, I didn't realize the memory I bought was actually 1333 overclocked to 2133. And I didn't know it was just from a sample. I assumed that the memory I actually got was in some testing gizmo and the ones found to run at 2133 got one label, 1866s got another, 1600s got another, etc.... Well, as long as it works well, I'm happy since I don't want to run them at 2133. I was kind of hoping to run them at 1866, though, since supposedly the CPU will do that. If I had known about this kind of thing going on, I would have done more research. But like I've said before, this computer is still a whole lot better than my last one, so I'll still be happy with it if it's as stable as my last one was. http://www.kingston.com/dataSheets/K...1D3K4_16GX.pdf "Each module kit has been tested to run at DDR3-2133 at a low latency timing of 11-12-11 at 1.65V. The SPDs are programmed to JEDEC standard latency DDR3-1333 timing of 9-9-9 at 1.5V." Sounds fishy to me. They're saying that the modules have been programmed with an SPD that has the memory run at a slower speed hence the tighter timings yet they "test" then to run at the higher speed (and looser timings). Sure sounds like they've taken DDR3-1333 modules and are selling them as overclocked units. The chip maker says the product is rated for 1333 at CAS9 but Kingston is overclocking that spec and claiming (and hoping) the product works at 2133 CAS11. Try to get the hardware working by not overclocking anything. You can play with overclocking later where you decide if you want stability along with continuous usability or speed at the expense of usability. Well, yes. I never wanted to overclock anything. Yet at first, I couldn't get it to stop rebooting with all automatically-detected settings, running 1333 MHz and 9-9-9-24. I've rebooted a few times myself today, but so far, I've now had it running without shutting it off for eight hours without a *spontaneous* reboot. I don't know if my manual reboots are resetting something or not. I'm going to stop doing that for the rest of the day. I just had to go into the BIOS to get those screens. Also, I have not had a reboot since disabling turbo mode. I noticed that the CPU was getting "stuck" in turbo speeds. It's supposed to run at 3.5 GHz normally, but when CPU usage was almost nothing, it was still stuck at 3.8 GHz, but did come down from around 4.2 GHz. Well, I don't really care about turbo mode, especially if it's going to get stuck there. And I have those 4GB 10-12-11-28 DIMM timings set, and I'm more than happy with that if it increases stability over 9-9-9-24. I wonder if the memory needed to be "broken in"... run it at full 2133 MHz for an hour and a half, then run them at normal speed. That's what they've been through, and the reboots seem to be taking longer to happen, assuming there's another one waiting to torture me. It's not a good feeling to know that at any second, my screen could be showing me my BIOS version against my will. Is there decent airflow over the memory modules? Sometimes cables, especially the flat IDE ones, are incorrectly oriented perpendicular to the airflow instead of parallel to it. Of course, with your external table fan blowing into the case, it's that airflow direction you need to cool the memory cards. Stupid me, I stuck my hand inside to check the air flow around the thickest power cable and my fingertip accidentally touched the CPU fan. It's a pretty powerful fan. But I cursed myself in the process. I'm surprised that didn't make the screen display byte-trash. While I was in there grabbing that screen shot, I noticed that the voltage was set to manual at 1.4, and it was in yellow. I reset that to automatic. I'm not sure yet how that'll affect stability. These overclocked units at the 2133 clock require 1.65V. They're overclocked. They need more power. They'll expell more heat. Even at the module spec'd 1333 clock rate (what the chip manufacturer rated for the module, not what Kingston decided to "test" and claim a higher but overclocked rate), the modules are spec'ed at 1.5V. You said 1.4 was wrong but didn't mention what voltage the "automatic" setting used. Well, when I reset it to automatic, the voltage went to 1.488. Oddly, even when I entered a manual setting of 1.65 volts at 2133 MHz, the actual result wasn't *exactly* 1.65 volts, but just slightly less. I remember once having to rework the cutouts. In every other case where they were tough to get in, it just required a bit more jostling, jiggling, and pushing to get the cutouts to align. Typically it's just push in, push back, and click. The "sand" noise could be the edge of the PCB for the cutouts scraping past the nubs in the slot bracket. Could be, but I don't want to have to take them out again until I build another computer or buy new memory for whatever reason. Heh. If these come with a folder-over heat plate, have you made sure they are centered and not partially overlapping the side cutouts? Are these just the cheap and worthless fold-over aluminum plates put on just for looks or are they the ones that extend beyond the top of the memory card with fins (which often results in problem in spacing with other components)? These don't have fins, just foldover plates with pretty graphics on them. They look just like the ones you showed me at that link: http://www.legitreviews.com/article/2030/1/ That's not why I bought them, though. I didn't even know what they were going to look like. I just bought them because they were on the QVL for this motherboard, and I could afford them, and they had free shipping, and people were saying Kingston is a good brand. I didn't want OCZ because so many people were saying that brand is not a good one. G.Skill was also on the list, but I had never heard of them, and very few people were suggesting that brand to others in the forums I searched. I didn't ask anybody directly because there were already so many other people who had asked before. Anyway, these are Non-ECC memory cards. I wonder if I should disable ECC mode in the BIOS for any kind of benefit or stability plus. I thought it was strange that this motherboard can't even use ECC memory, and yet there's an option for it in the BIOS. The book says: "You may install 1GB, 2GB, 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB unbuffered and non-ECC DDR3 DIMMs into the DIMM sockets." From http://www.legitreviews.com/article/2030/1/, it looks like its just the non-functional plate used for marketing glitz. Those just slide over and are held by friction, don't have good contact since the inside is painted or is unpolished, and no thermal paste is used plus they provide little additional surface area for cooling than for the chip tops themselves (and the lack of thermal paste and good surface contact means poor heat transfer so the added surface area of the plate is ineffective). Why is it that I never hear about these things until I've already spent money? Hopefully they'll still be fine running at 1333 MHz, which is all I intend to run them at. The holes in the mobo for the standoff screws might have a grounding pad so, yes, you want the screws to contact them. Shorting happens when flathead screws are used with oversized heads. The heads obviously have to be bigger than the hole to hold the mobo but I've seen some folks use really large headed screws which reached beyond the grounding pad on the mobo. Also, not all mobo mounting points have grounding pads. It's not the metallic standoffs that short something away from the hole. It's using too-large headed screws. The screws I used have a very tiny flange on them because they're also made for a socket screwdriver, but nothing that extends past the little circle of slight bulge around the screw hole. It doesn't even come close. Did the mobo come with a packet of standoffs and screws? If so, and if no phenolic washers were provided then you don't any assuming you're also using the screws provided in the hardware kit. Or were you salvaging the screws and maybe the standoffs out of a junk box? The motherboard didn't come with any standoffs or screws. I wish it had because I would have used them. I used the screws and standoffs I had in my last build. It came with SATA cables and a USB cable, SLI connectors for two or three video cards, stickers to label the cables, an RoG emblem for the case, which I have stuck on the door on the case. (Yes, my case has a door that hasn't been knocked off yet, even though it's about ten years old.) But no screws. Where there is a grounding pad around a standoff hole is where a screw should contact it. That is what connects chassis ground to circuit ground. Make sure the screw head does extend outside the grounding contact. Not all mounting holes for the standoffs will have grounding contacts. Make sure the metallic screw doesn't contact any foils, components leads, or jumper wires next to those holes. This one has no obvious silver rings around the holes like one motherboard I had, but when installing the screws, there were little metal "dots" that seemed to be peeking through the black layer that's on the motherboard for looks. And the book doesn't say anything about needing to use washers. Damaeus |
#24
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
Damaeus wrote:
Thanks. I'll give one of them a whirl. I don't know anymore what the program runs under. I embarrassed myself in a web forum by referring to it as DOS, and someone rather condescendingly told me that Memtest86 has nothing to do with DOS. Actually, it isn't DOS. It is something pretty amazing, for modern computer users. memtest86+ is a program that runs without any OS at all. It bootstraps the way an OS might, the BIOS hands off to it like it was an OS, but it's a dedicated program running in Ring0. It has access to all hardware, never has permission problems, because it owns the whole machine. As far as I know, the low res graphics screen is a VESA access mode, and VESA is a standard implemented in most all graphics cards. Only a couple old Matrox cards, have busted VESA on them (the screen repeats multiple times in VESA mode, and is hard to read). The disadvantage of running without an OS, is no threading or scheduling would be provided by default. If a person sought all the advantages an OS could provide, they'd need a library of some sort with those functions in it. (At that point, maybe the library would be running a form of microkernel.) At best, all we can expect is that memtest86+ uses one processor core, and only listens to user input, by polling occasionally for it. The functionality is pared down, compared to running with an OS. Paul |
#25
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
Damaeus wrote:
In news:alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, VanguardLH posted on Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:12:24 -0600 the following: "Damaeus" wrote: Wow! I'll have to check the BIOS again, but automatic settings have the voltage set to around 1.288 or something like that. Maybe too little voltage is the problem. Way too low. According to the Kingston, the *non-overclocked* voltage is 1.5. For the OVERCLOCKED setup, Kingston says to use 1.65V. You said before it was 1.4. Too low. Now it's even worse? That's what it was showing when the manual entry was at 1.4. When I rebooted to the BIOS after setting it back on automatic, it was at 1.488. I put up a few pages of the BIOS he http://home.earthlink.net/~damaeus/crosshair.html To be safe, I may just take it off automatic and put it on 1.5 volts. What's also strange, but maybe it's normal, is that the voltage reading on four settings was fluctuating. I watched for a few seconds in the Voltage Monitor and got fluctuations in these readings: VCore 1.284 - 1.296 CPU/NB 1.197 - 1.230 HT Voltage 1.204 - 1.210 NB Voltage 1.105 - 1.111 Damaeus Hardware monitor channels, have limited resolution. When viewed in the OS level, the OS uses slightly better running average arithmetic, to make the values look "smooth". The BIOS tends to show the quantization coming from the actual analog to digital converter (ADC). A typical cheesy hardware monitor, might measure 0 to 4.096 volts in 256 steps. That means roughly 16 millivolts per step. A regular multimeter from the store, might have 2000 steps for comparison. The hardware monitor is better than nothing, but is only roughly in the ballpark. It's not "lab instrumentation quality". If something was way out of whack, that's what those are for. To check to see if "something is burning". Even a store bought multimeter, has fluctuation in the last digit. Paul |
#26
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
"Damaeus" wrote:
Also, I have not had a reboot since disabling turbo mode. I noticed that the CPU was getting "stuck" in turbo speeds. It's supposed to run at 3.5 GHz normally, but when CPU usage was almost nothing, it was still stuck at 3.8 GHz, but did come down from around 4.2 GHz. Well, I don't really care about turbo mode, especially if it's going to get stuck there. And I have those 4GB 10-12-11-28 DIMM timings set, and I'm more than happy with that if it increases stability over 9-9-9-24. You need to get rid of all the overclocking in the BIOS. Get to a stable state first. Play around with overclocking later, if at all. Isn't there an "optimal" config that puts the memory timings at 1333 CAS9 1.5V (as per the SPD defined by the chip maker and not Kingston's hopeful overclocked values)? http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/..._Formula-Z.pdf page 3-3 Shows a button labelled "Defaults" for optimal settings. I'm assuming that if this mobo lets you save a different set of defaults into the EEPROM that either you haven't done that (i.e., altered the defaults) or that saved config (flashed into the EEPROM, not saved in CMOS) isn't used when you elect Defaults (i.e., you have to elect the saved config to use that one). I would think Turbo mode would not be enabled when using Defaults which I would expect to use optimal settings. Page 3-2 says "If the system becomes unstable after changing any BIOS setting, load the default settings to ensure system compatibility and stability. Select the *Load Optimized Defaults* item under the *Exit* menu or press hotkey *F5*. I wonder if the memory needed to be "broken in"... run it at full 2133 MHz for an hour and a half, then run them at normal speed. That's what they've been through, and the reboots seem to be taking longer to happen, assuming there's another one waiting to torture me. It's not a good feeling to know that at any second, my screen could be showing me my BIOS version against my will. Burning in of electronics is to discover early any failing or weak components. Things either break or stay the same during burn in. They don't get better. The idea is to find failures before the device in put into service. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn-in Work on the hardware first. Don't bother even loading an OS until the hardware is stable. The OS can't be stable if the hardware isn't. For burn-in, you can use Prime95's Torture Test. You could customise a BartPE image (http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/) or "Ultimate Boot CD for Windows" (http://www.ubcd4win.com/index.htm) to add Prime95. Well, when I reset it to automatic, the voltage went to 1.488. Oddly, even when I entered a manual setting of 1.65 volts at 2133 MHz, the actual result wasn't *exactly* 1.65 volts, but just slightly less. Don't trust the voltages shown by the BIOS and monitored by sensors on the mobo to be that accurate. That's why I mentioned using a multimeter but even then measurements may only be close since rare few consumers ever get their multimeters calibrated and also recalibrate them every few years. They typically buy from the store and they sit forever in the toolbox with an occasional exposure to sunlight too often with a leaky old battery for the ohm function corroding the battery terminals. Temperatures are "measured" by gradient changes in the components used as sensors but their changes are not linear. Tables are used in the Winbond chip to equate temperatures at certain points in the curve (the table only has room for so many entries so temperature "readings" are granular, not analog). There can also be a mismatch between the table values in the Winbond chip and the curve for the sensor. Then there is the hysteresis in sensors so that the reading shown in the BIOS may not be the current temperature. At http://www.almico.com/sfhistory.php, you can see all the updates in Speedfan trying to keep up with all the various controller/monitor chips, versions, and their tables. Just because mobo maker has a much smaller combo of chip and sensor to couple together for temperature sensing doesn't mean they make the best choice or there is a best choice but just a closest choice. There is also intervening components, like maybe a 10K-ohm resistor between sensor and chip so there's the variability (tolerance) in that component's value. It's not like every mobo gets personalized tweaking to ensure the BIOS' granularity is accurate. They design, they produce, they test, and then they manufacture with perhaps sporadic sampling. They can't afford to test every unit. That's not how manufacturing works. Figure the BIOS readings are better than just seeing LEDS saying you're close to the target voltage. A calibrated multimeter would be better. A non-calibrated multimeter, especially years old and stored in the garage, attic, car, or other non-temperature controlled environment, could be a worse choice. Of course, have fun trying to find a spot where you can measure the memory's voltage. Often you don't have access to the backside of the mobo once it's mounted in the case. Anyway, these are Non-ECC memory cards. I wonder if I should disable ECC mode in the BIOS for any kind of benefit or stability plus. I thought it was strange that this motherboard can't even use ECC memory, and yet there's an option for it in the BIOS. If you have non-ECC memory than you should not enable ECC in the BIOS. You can't make the BIOS magically change the memory into a mode it doesn't support. The BIOS should to match the memory. For non-ECC memory, BIOS must be set to non-ECC. For ECC memory, you can choose non-ECC or ECC mode -- but why pay the extra cost of ECC memory and not use that feature? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_memory Non-ECC has become the norm for consumer-grade hardware, so much so that often you won't even see it mentioned in the specs. If ECC isn't mentioned, assume it's non-ECC. Did your BIOS really default to ECC mode? Or was the consequence of using turbo or other overclock settings in the BIOS? I'd be surprised if any BIOS linked ECC/non-ECC mode to any timing configs. |
#27
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
On Friday, January 11, 2013 6:24:10 AM UTC-7, Damaeus wrote:
In news:alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, VanguardLH posted on When you mounted the mobo to the case using the standoffs, were they plastic standoffs onto which you push the mobo or are they metallic threaded rods and you use screws to hold down the mobo? If the metallic type, did you use the phenolic insulating washers between the screws heads and the mobo, or do the mobo have a nice grounding pad around the hold through which the screw passes? I have seen where metallic standoffs and metal screws have caused shorts. In addition, I've found mobos that had problems due to solder flakes or whiskers. I have metal screw-in studs that go into a metal case. I asked about using washers in my last build and someone told me that those washers aren't needed because using metal screws in metal studs "grounds" the motherboard to the case. It looks like the printed circuits steer clear of the mounting holes. If you think I should have washers in this thing, I can get some and put them in. These people are saying no washers are needed: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/24...ulated-washers And this guy says no washers are needed because the motherboard needs grounding: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...herboard/145/2 That guy's wrong because motherboards are grounded through the power connectors and rarely need additional grounding, and you only want to ground grounds, not signals or voltages, and there's no way to be sure about the standoffs (those screw-in studs) or screws causing shorts unless you check your particular motherboard. For example, here's a hole that should get an insulator washer on this side: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2546/...aae2cb5b_m.jpg Here's a hole that might need a washer: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3518/...9bdae2d8_m.jpg And here's one that doesn't need one on this side: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3564/...88b58fc9_m.jpg I had an ancient motherboard where the left side of one hole had a ground plane and the right side had a +3.3V plane, less than 1/8" apart. IOW don't rely on generalizations here. |
#28
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
On Friday, January 11, 2013 4:54:53 AM UTC-7, Damaeus wrote:
In news:alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, posted I asked some guys in a web forum what to do and they said to set the memory to run at its "rated" speed and timing. So I set it to 2133 MHz and timing to 11-12-11-30, and voltage to 1.65, which is what the specs are for this memory. But not for the memory chips because no chip maker rates its visibly branded DDR3 for 1.65V ("visibly" means no heatsinks covering the chips), and real 2133 MHz chips are rarely found on 2133 MHz memory modules. Kingston (or whoever makes these) supposedly tested it and found that it would run at a maximum speed of 2133 MHz. I don't want to run it that fast, of course. I got it because I figured if it would run at 2133 MHz, then it would run even better at slower speeds. Its standard speed is 1333 MHz, which I'm happy with. I like the overhead and I'd rather run memory capable of 2133 at 1333 instead of running memory capable of only 1333 at 1333. The former is like having a car that'll go 213 miles an hour, but I only drive it at 133. lol Maybe I can get an exchange on this if it shows errors. I researched the brand and Kingston was listed along with Mushkin, Crucial and Corsair as good brands. But these were web forums. I guess people were going by their experiences. Someone in a web forum suggested my battery backup might be going bad. That won't matter unless you have a true UPS, where the power coming out of it is always from the battery. But most units are actually just backup power sources that normally connect the household AC directly to the outputs, through a relay, so the condition of the battery won't matter, except maybe when the backup supply is turned on -- many units won't allow being turned on if the battery is really bad. That was the only reason I changed the power source. It seems fine and it passes its self-test. BTW many batteries over about 3 years old will pass the self-test but won't provide anything close to the rated run time but instead only 30-60 seconds. I don't think your PSU is bad, and most likely you're experiencing bad memory (Kingston is made of no-name or overclocked chips) or software, probably the latter. Sigh... And someone on a web forum said that Kingston makes their own memory. Sometimes I hate the internet. Kingston buys whole finished silicon wafers and slices and dices them on their own. I thought all their memory modules were made that way, but I recently learned of this XbitLabs review of some 2133 MHz Kingstons made from Hynix H9 speed chips (1333 MHz): http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mem...b_5.html#sect0 Companies that make memory modules but not memory chips tend to have lower quality standards than the chip makers do, as evidenced by their testing machines costing only thousands of $$$ rather than millions of $$$. |
#29
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New Build PC Spontaneously Reboots Sometimes Before OS Load
On Friday, January 11, 2013 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, VanguardLH wrote:
I've seen some memory brands that overclock their modules (by the spec they sell at). You are led to believe the memory module is rated for those specs but those are actually overclocked specs advertized for the product so they can charge you more. When they claim the unit has been tested at the overclocked values, that's not true. They have not been "burned" for hours to test stability nor has every unit been tested but just a sample. http://www.kingston.com/dataSheets/K...1D3K4_16GX.pdf "Each module kit has been tested to run at DDR3-2133 at a low latency timing of 11-12-11 at 1.65V. The SPDs are programmed to JEDEC standard latency DDR3-1333 timing of 9-9-9 at 1.5V." Sounds fishy to me. They're saying that the modules have been programmed with an SPD that has the memory run at a slower speed hence the tighter timings yet they "test" then to run at the higher speed (and looser timings). Sure sounds like they've taken DDR3-1333 modules and are selling them as overclocked units. The chip maker says the product is rated for 1333 at CAS9 but Kingston is overclocking that spec and claiming (and hoping) the product works at 2133 CAS11. I was told, in a message thread with my name in it, that such overclocked modules are reliable enough for 99% of the customers and that factory testing done at room temperature with just PCs or $2,000 testers is just as good as testing done with the $4.5M machines used by chip manufacturers. OTOH in other forums where most of the participants were engineers, almost everybody completely disagreed, sometimes angrily. |
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