[GA-EP35C-DS3R] default Memory speed shown in BIOS is not correct

Hi everyone,

I just build my new PC with the GA-EP35C-DSR MB, and so far, so good

The only thing thar bothers me is that I installed 2 * 2Go of DDR2
memory (sold together, under the brand "black dragon (GEIL)").
This is supposed to be PC 8500 memory. This is waht is written on the
box, and on the shiny stickers that are on the sticks themselves.

So, I gather that the BIOS shoudl show a default speed of 1066MHz, am I
right.

Well, it says that my memory is 800MHz memory.
I flashed the BIOS to F3 version, and I checked with EasyTune (don't
know why it would be different, buyt anyway). It still shows 800MHz.

I tested the memory for several hours with memtest. The sticks seem to
work ok.

Before I call the shop where I bought it, I would like to hear from
this NG about anytging I could have ommitted or misunderstood.

The simplest explaination, for the moment, is that there are false
information of both the box and the stickers of the memory sticks I bought.

Looking forward for your answers. Thanks for reading.

Huey

Hueyduck wrote:
Hi everyone,

I just build my new PC with the GA-EP35C-DSR MB, and so far, so good

The only thing thar bothers me is that I installed 2 * 2Go of DDR2
memory (sold together, under the brand "black dragon (GEIL)").
This is supposed to be PC 8500 memory. This is waht is written on the
box, and on the shiny stickers that are on the sticks themselves.

So, I gather that the BIOS shoudl show a default speed of 1066MHz, am I
right.

Well, it says that my memory is 800MHz memory.
I flashed the BIOS to F3 version, and I checked with EasyTune (don't
know why it would be different, buyt anyway). It still shows 800MHz.

I tested the memory for several hours with memtest. The sticks seem to
work ok.

Before I call the shop where I bought it, I would like to hear from
this NG about anytging I could have ommitted or misunderstood.

The simplest explaination, for the moment, is that there are false
information of both the box and the stickers of the memory sticks I bought.

Looking forward for your answers. Thanks for reading.

Huey

Each DIMM has a tiny SPD EEPROM chip on it. The SPD chip contains
timing tables.

There are two options for the manufacturer. The SPD table can be set
up, to contain the "overclocked" values (the advertised values) for
the product. But if such a DIMM is plugged into an average motherboard,
it may cause the motherboard not to start.

To fix it, the DIMM manufacturer puts a "safe" setting in the SPD.
In your case, that might be DDR2-800 settings. Then, it is up
to the user, to manually enter the DDR2-1066 clock and timing
values into the BIOS. That reduces the number of tech support
phone calls received, as most users get their motherboards
to work. And the technically savvy users, dial in the correct
settings manually.

It is not dishonesty, as much as an attempt to reduce the number
of tech support phone calls, and requests for RMA.

Here, you see a DDR2 DIMM, that has three timing tables. The
SPD chip supports DDR2-400, DDR2-533, and DDR2-667. Now, it
could be, that the product has printed on the box, that it
supports more speed. You'd need to enter the details printed
on the box, in place of the types of values shown here by
default in the SPD. Generally, looser timings (higher CAS etc)
are used at the elevated clock speeds.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/...aaed713d_o.png

It looks possible, that the timings are 5-5-5-15, with no value
stated for tRC. You could leave tRC at Auto if you want, and let
the BIOS work it out. The modules are rated at a high value of
Vdimm, but I would not apply 2.4V as a long term voltage to
my modules. Use only as much voltage as is needed for
stability. Somewhere between 2.0 and 2.2V for example.
Test with memtest86+ before you boot into Windows - if the
RAM is not manually dialled in correctly, your Windows boot
disk will get corrupted. (Make a backup of the bootdisk, while
the RAM is at a lower stable setting, so you're prepared for the
worst - I use a Linux LiveCD for initial boot testing, because
a CD cannot be harmed by an overclocking type failure. Only
boot to Windows, if you're absolutely sure the memory is
error free.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820144242

The Geil site is perfectly useless, a waste of electrons.

http://www.geil.com.tw/products/showSpec/id/118

Paul

Paul a écrit :


Each DIMM has a tiny SPD EEPROM chip on it. The SPD chip contains
timing tables.

Hi, Paul.

There are two options for the manufacturer. The SPD table can be set
up, to contain the "overclocked" values (the advertised values) for
the product. But if such a DIMM is plugged into an average motherboard,
it may cause the motherboard not to start.

To fix it, the DIMM manufacturer puts a "safe" setting in the SPD.
In your case, that might be DDR2-800 settings. Then, it is up
to the user, to manually enter the DDR2-1066 clock and timing
values into the BIOS. That reduces the number of tech support
phone calls received, as most users get their motherboards
to work. And the technically savvy users, dial in the correct
settings manually.

It is not dishonesty, as much as an attempt to reduce the number
of tech support phone calls, and requests for RMA.

This sounds dishonnest to me. Any normal person won't mess with the
BIOS juste in order to get his memory running at the nominal speed.
Anyway, I do not want to have to overclock something in my PC.
This is too much hazardous for a workstation.

I found this thread:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?p=12289158
And now, I don't know what to think.
Tomorrow, I'll go and check the sticks in the shop where I bought it.
They say they will test it.


Here, you see a DDR2 DIMM, that has three timing tables. The
SPD chip supports DDR2-400, DDR2-533, and DDR2-667. Now, it
could be, that the product has printed on the box, that it
supports more speed. You'd need to enter the details printed
on the box, in place of the types of values shown here by
default in the SPD. Generally, looser timings (higher CAS etc)
are used at the elevated clock speeds.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/...aaed713d_o.png

CPU-Z clearly states that my modules are PC2-6400 (400MHz).



It looks possible, that the timings are 5-5-5-15, with no value
stated for tRC. You could leave tRC at Auto if you want, and let
the BIOS work it out. The modules are rated at a high value of
Vdimm, but I would not apply 2.4V as a long term voltage to
my modules. Use only as much voltage as is needed for
stability. Somewhere between 2.0 and 2.2V for example.

Thanks you for your advice, but as I said, I do not want to eneter an
overclocking procedure. I want my hardware to run at its nominal speed.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks you for explaining all this to me.
This was very detailed. And it allowed me to discover CPU-Z, btw :-)



The Geil site is perfectly useless, a waste of electrons.

Seems like their product might not be the best. I did'nt know this
brand. Last time I buy that .
Why the shop would tell me that they were better that corsair, I do
not know.

Thanks again.

Huey

Paul a écrit :


Each DIMM has a tiny SPD EEPROM chip on it. The SPD chip contains
timing tables.

There are two options for the manufacturer. The SPD table can be set
up, to contain the "overclocked" values (the advertised values) for
the product. But if such a DIMM is plugged into an average motherboard,
it may cause the motherboard not to start.

Well, after a bit of research, I found something that might indicate
that it is also a motherboard issue.

Here's a post I found he (read 08-01-2008 @ 23h07'04)
http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Hardwar...t_788214_1.htm

Translated from french, it goes like this:

[/quote]
"In order to insure compatibility, motherboards follow JEDEC
specifications, which allow to assemble é boot a PC in a reliable way.
This JEDEC norm ignores DDR2 that goes higher than PC6400/800Hz.
So if the BIOS memory setting is set to "default", every module with a
speed equal or higher than 800MHz will show ac being PC6400.

For seome brands (including Crucial), ther is an additionnal norm name
EPP (enhanced performance profile) wich give the timing one has to
manually set in the BIOS in order to enjoy the real performance of
these modules. These specifications appear in CPU-Z or Everest. Intel
Chipset do *not* recognize EPP profiles. nVidia chipset *do*.

The best thing is to chose frequency ande ratio manually in the BIOS,
and, if necessary, chose the Vdimm value specified by the vendor.

This is true for all the Motherboards with an Intel Chipset that deals
with DDR2.
[/quote]

So, you see, Paul, with your explanations and this one , I finally
decided to try the simple tool that is given with the EP35c-DS3R, and
wich is called
easyTune5.

I just set the memory to 1066MHz.
Rebooted.
Works fine.

I will perform a MEMtest tonight/

Anyway, all this seesm a bit strange.
CPU-Z still shows my memeory as "PC-6400". Is it possible that this
"PC-6400" is entirely made up by the motherboard, due to JEDEC
limitations? I wonder.


Huey

Hi everyone,

This afternoon, I changed the speed of my 2 modules of memory, in order
for them to run at the speed I bought them for. I let Easy Tune do
automatic settings.

Tonight, I checked the stability of the memory with memtest: errors all
over the place.

With a speed of 800MHz onstead of the nominal 1066MHz, there was no errors.

Shall I assume that my two modules cannot support the settings that are
advertized on the box?This *is* annoying.

This is annoying because I have no way to find the setting that would
insure zero errors with my two modules at 1066MHz. I can try, but I
cannot be assured.

What do you think?

I think I'll bring them sticks to the shop and try another brand.
Any advice is welcome.


Huey.

Hueyduck wrote:
Hi everyone,

This afternoon, I changed the speed of my 2 modules of memory, in order
for them to run at the speed I bought them for. I let Easy Tune do
automatic settings.

Tonight, I checked the stability of the memory with memtest: errors all
over the place.

With a speed of 800MHz onstead of the nominal 1066MHz, there was no errors.

Shall I assume that my two modules cannot support the settings that are
advertized on the box?This *is* annoying.

This is annoying because I have no way to find the setting that would
insure zero errors with my two modules at 1066MHz. I can try, but I
cannot be assured.

What do you think?

I think I'll bring them sticks to the shop and try another brand.
Any advice is welcome.


Huey.

Does Easytune change the Vdimm setting ? It probably does not.
You have forgotten to adjust the Vdimm in the BIOS. Once you
do that, the errors could disappear.

On my motherboards here, I usually have to set some BIOS setting
to "Manual", to expose the memory timing settings. (On Gigabyte,
the detailed settings are hidden until you press control F1.)

Once the detailed settings are available, set the four parameters
(the 5-5-5-15 part) in the BIOS. Set the memory clock so that
the memory is running at DDR2-1066 (or whatever the setting is
that the motherboard happens to support). The motherboard will
have an upper limit, as to what that speed may be. In some cases,
only overclocking the CPU, makes available the very highest
settings.

CPUZ can be used to verify the current operating conditions
for the RAM. Make sure the operating conditions match the ones
listed on the Geil site (DDR2-1066 5-5-5-15).

It sounds like Easytune has set the speed for you, but may not
have adjusted the memory voltage. The Geil web page says the
Vdimm "working" voltage is 2.2V to 2.4V. The JEDEC standard value
is 1.8V. Use only as much voltage as is needed to stop the errors.
You can start at 2.2V, and work down a step at a time, and in each
case, use a memtest86+ floppy for memory testing. I would not
recommend 2.4V for long term usage. If you can do one complete
pass of memtest86+ at a given voltage, keep adjusting the
voltage, until you see what the sensitive point is. Then
give it an extra step of voltage, before moving to another
test. (Like booting a Linux LiveCD and running Prime95, before
you boot back into Windows.)

When using highly elevated voltage for DIMMs, and when using four
DIMMs with fat heat spreaders on them, sometimes there is no room
for air movement between the DIMMs. The result can be high
operating temperatures for the RAM. Since it sounds like
you're using only two sticks, I'm less worried about the
temperature. But you should still avoid using extremely high
voltage values over the long term, because it could result
in a memory failure at some future date.

HTH,
Paul

Paul a écrit :


Does Easytune change the Vdimm setting ? It probably does not.

You are right: it doesnot.

You have forgotten to adjust the Vdimm in the BIOS. Once you
do that, the errors could disappear.

I've got something weirder since yesterday:
I made a bootable CD with memtest86 on it, in order to follow your advice.
I set the memory to 1066MHz (speed that should be shown) instead of the
default BIOS setting of 800MHz. I did'nt change the Vdimm.
memtest86 ran @700% without finding an error.
Under windows, all the instances I had to open to cover the memory where
finding errors like mushrooms in a meadow.
How is that possible, I wonder.
Btw, I seem to understand that a 100% test done by memtest86 is more
reliable than 200 or 300% test under windows. Under windows, memetest
recommend to run the application at least 20 minutes.
Under Dos, when it's finished, it's finished. I like that.




On my motherboards here, I usually have to set some BIOS setting
to "Manual", to expose the memory timing settings. (On Gigabyte,
the detailed settings are hidden until you press control F1.)

Once the detailed settings are available, set the four parameters
(the 5-5-5-15 part) in the BIOS. Set the memory clock so that
the memory is running at DDR2-1066 (or whatever the setting is
that the motherboard happens to support). The motherboard will
have an upper limit, as to what that speed may be. In some cases,
only overclocking the CPU, makes available the very highest
settings.

CPUZ can be used to verify the current operating conditions
for the RAM. Make sure the operating conditions match the ones
listed on the Geil site (DDR2-1066 5-5-5-15).

It sounds like Easytune has set the speed for you, but may not
have adjusted the memory voltage. The Geil web page says the
Vdimm "working" voltage is 2.2V to 2.4V.

Yes I saw that. As I sais, I am a OC virgin and I was intending to stay
so I didn't even know that.

The JEDEC standard value
is 1.8V. Use only as much voltage as is needed to stop the errors.
You can start at 2.2V, and work down a step at a time, and in each
case, use a memtest86+ floppy for memory testing.

For the moment, the memory runs at 1.95V. I will test it some more.
It bothers me that the errors found unedre windows memetest would not be
reproductible under DOS, though.
Could a bad manipulation make memtest report memory errors? (for
instance if I had launched mem test while small programs where running
or opened in the background).

I would not
recommend 2.4V for long term usage. If you can do one complete
pass of memtest86+ at a given voltage, keep adjusting the
voltage, until you see what the sensitive point is. Then
give it an extra step of voltage, before moving to another
test. (Like booting a Linux LiveCD and running Prime95, before
you boot back into Windows.)

whoo, I'll look into that.
Nice way to introduce me to LInux. I'll search the ISO.

When using highly elevated voltage for DIMMs, and when using four
DIMMs with fat heat spreaders on them, sometimes there is no room
for air movement between the DIMMs. The result can be high
operating temperatures for the RAM. Since it sounds like
you're using only two sticks, I'm less worried about the
temperature. But you should still avoid using extremely high
voltage values over the long term, because it could result
in a memory failure at some future date.

And I don't want that.

Last question if you do'nt mind:
Geil site specifies 2.2 to 2.4V for the modules.
If the memtest i happy with a lower tension (like the one I have now
wich is 1.95V I think), shall I up it to 2.2V anyway? Logically, yes,
since it is the default lower voltage. But, again, I woudl have thoug

Thank you so much, Paul for all those explaination.


Huey

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to update one last time this thread.

So, the GEIL memory modules where simply either
- defective
or
- not compatible with the EP35C-DSR motherboard.

I brought them back not because they where detected as PC6400 instead of
PC8500, since this is normal and dur to JEDEC compliance from the
motherboard.
But, when I was clocking the modules to their nominal speed and setting
their voltage to the recommended value, memtest wouldn't stop detecting
errors.

I changed the modules for g.skill ones. ref F2-8500-CL5D-4GBPK
DDR2-1066 PC2-8500 2048MB*2 CL5-5-15 2.0 to 2.1V

On the site of the brand, you can find a pdf with screen captures of
many BIOS from the boards that have been tested.
I set the frenquency to 1066MHz, upped the voltage from +0.2V (it now
reads something between 2.0 and 2.1), and tested it
-memtest86 from a bootable CDrom: 200% coverage= no error
-memtest under winXPSP2: all night long= no error.


Thank you for having helped me with this problem.


(ATT Tim) I do think that your modules are simply not compatible with
your motherboard.
g.skill site specifies exactly what motherboard they tested with each of
their module kit. You might want to take a look.


Huey

ANd btw, there I checked my new modules (g.skill) with CPU-Z.
I went to the SPD tab.
In the timing table, there are 3 possible settings recorded:
JEDEC1= 266MHz
JEDEC2=400Mhz (my previous modules were only showing frequency as high
as this one)
end
EPP1= 533MHz

ANd they are the ones who , indeed, work nicely, even if they are really
hot.


Huey

"Hueyduck" wrote in message
...
ANd btw, there I checked my new modules (g.skill) with CPU-Z.
I went to the SPD tab.
In the timing table, there are 3 possible settings recorded:
JEDEC1= 266MHz
JEDEC2=400Mhz (my previous modules were only showing frequency as high as
this one)
end
EPP1= 533MHz

ANd they are the ones who , indeed, work nicely, even if they are really
hot.


Huey


Hi there,

Reading the Cosair forum I believe you are right and have RMA'd them and
ordered OCZ memory which according to the Gigabyte compatibility sheet
should be compatible.

We shall see if it runs at 1333 without a problem.

Many thanks for the pointers, Tim.