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#1
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Motherboard Advice Needed
A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree?
She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob |
#2
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Motherboard Advice Needed
Bob Simon wrote:
A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul |
#3
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Motherboard Advice Needed
On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 6:38:53 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
Bob Simon wrote: A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul Paul, Thanks for your informative reply. The owner does not know anything about the OS licenses and since this machine came with Win7 pre-installed, you may be right about it being an OEM version. How can I determine for sure if this is the case? I assumed that I could install Win7 in a new system using the old license key. If not, as you suggested, upgrading the system would no longer be a cost-effective option. DRAT! For general purpose computing, what do you think the minimum acceptable Passmark score would be? 2000? 2500? |
#4
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Motherboard Advice Needed
Bob Simon wrote:
On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 6:38:53 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul Paul, Thanks for your informative reply. The owner does not know anything about the OS licenses and since this machine came with Win7 pre-installed, you may be right about it being an OEM version. How can I determine for sure if this is the case? I assumed that I could install Win7 in a new system using the old license key. If not, as you suggested, upgrading the system would no longer be a cost-effective option. DRAT! For general purpose computing, what do you think the minimum acceptable Passmark score would be? 2000? 2500? I generally work in terms of clocks. A dual core at 2GHz would be a minimum. My E8400 is a dual core at 3GHz. And considering how pudgy modern OSes are, I now consider the E8400 to be a minimum. If we use Passmark, it would be 2000 in a dual core, and 4000 in a quad core processor. That's to get enough single threaded performance (which is what most users see and feel, most of the time). I do own another machine, which is 7x faster than the E8400 in certain situations. I run 7ZIP on it, and compress backup files. Yet, for all of its multi-threaded goodness, as a desktop experience it feels about as fast as the E8400. It's not until you get out a stop watch, and see the rate it can compress to .7z archive, that you appreciate how much more powerful it is. As a representative sample, I picked this one. I selected dual core, to keep the price down. It has a high clock, which gives good single-threaded performance. It won't compress to .7Z as fast as my $1400 base price computer, but I don't really think you care about that :-) This will actually feel faster than my new machine, when opening Microsoft Word. By a small amount. There is a newer version of this coming out soon, for $117 (Skylake/Broadwell generation). But this is available for purchase today. "Intel Core i3-4170 3M Haswell Dual-Core 3.7 GHz LGA 1150 54W" $125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117543 # of Cores 2 # of Threads 4 Clock 3.7 GHz Cache 3MB The cache is relatively insensitive. I have owned a 2.6GHz 2MB cache Intel, and the 3.0GHz 6MB cache E8400, and with few exceptions, they "feel the same". The E8400 can do 7ZIP about 50% faster than the E4700, and part of that is due to the cache. The cache does make a difference for some things. But not for Microsoft Word or Firefox web browser. Lots of regular desktop stuff, you can't tell the difference with 2MB cache or 6MB cache or 12MB cache. The E4700 setup even had deadly slow RAM (DDR2-533) and it *still* didn't make a difference. The IPC on Intel is a bit better than AMD. Say the Intel was 1.33x the Instructions Per Clock of the AMD. Then a 4GHz AMD feels the same as a 3GHz Intel. So when you see an AMD with a high clock, yes, it's nice, but the Intel is always just a little bit ahead. AMD does have a high clock processor, and it is considered to be "overclocked out of the box". But it also draws 220W while doing that, so it's some sort of poster boy for bad behavior (wasting power). AMD generally adjusts their price, to remain comparable to Intel. That's how I can double-check that I haven't made a gross error in a selection. "AMD A10-7850K Kaveri 4 CPU 3.7 GHz 4MB cache Socket FM2+ 95W" $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113359 Now, check the Passmark. Even though the 7850K is listed as 4 CPU, it's actual two dual-issue modules inside, and behaves in some ways like "2 CPU". AMD A10-7850K APU 5589 Intel Core i3-4170 5153 If we look at an 1100T, which is a true hex core... AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 5866 you would probably notice the single threaded was a bit worse. We would divide the 5866 by 6 to get a crude estimate of how much a single thread could get. ******* Part of your exercise for the "customer", is showing "improvement for dollars". So unlike buying a computer for a naive user, you're now in the unpleasant situation of (somehow) impressing this person, with how the money was well spent. A very dangerous position to be in, and either requiring deep pockets on your part (to test and vet stuff), or an unlimited budget from the customer (which you've already indicated isn't going to happen). There was a time, when this sort of exercise was a slam dunk. When I had my 300MHz Celeron with no cache on it, and I plugged in a Tualatin 1400MHz processor (which had at least some cache), the difference was night and day. That doesn't happen any more. That's why you have to go for the clock rate, and hope for the best :-) I would build up one prototype first, before kitting up for X systems, just to be sure you're on the right path. If you have a Win7 installer DVD, you can click the "Next" button when it asks for the license key, and the OS will run for 30 days without a license. That is sufficient for testing prototypes (you can't give the customer the machine that way, as the license will expire). On Win8, you cannot click Next, but there are some install-only keys available which you can use to get your 30 days grace. On Win10, no install-only keys have been spotted yet. And you cannot upgrade a Win7 install that has no license key, to Win10. The free upgrade to Win10 requires a license key in Win7 (I've already tried that). Good luck, Paul |
#5
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Motherboard Advice Needed
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 1:28:06 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
Bob Simon wrote: On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 6:38:53 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul Paul, Thanks for your informative reply. The owner does not know anything about the OS licenses and since this machine came with Win7 pre-installed, you may be right about it being an OEM version. How can I determine for sure if this is the case? I assumed that I could install Win7 in a new system using the old license key. If not, as you suggested, upgrading the system would no longer be a cost-effective option. DRAT! For general purpose computing, what do you think the minimum acceptable Passmark score would be? 2000? 2500? I generally work in terms of clocks. A dual core at 2GHz would be a minimum. My E8400 is a dual core at 3GHz. And considering how pudgy modern OSes are, I now consider the E8400 to be a minimum. If we use Passmark, it would be 2000 in a dual core, and 4000 in a quad core processor. That's to get enough single threaded performance (which is what most users see and feel, most of the time). I do own another machine, which is 7x faster than the E8400 in certain situations. I run 7ZIP on it, and compress backup files. Yet, for all of its multi-threaded goodness, as a desktop experience it feels about as fast as the E8400. It's not until you get out a stop watch, and see the rate it can compress to .7z archive, that you appreciate how much more powerful it is. As a representative sample, I picked this one. I selected dual core, to keep the price down. It has a high clock, which gives good single-threaded performance. It won't compress to .7Z as fast as my $1400 base price computer, but I don't really think you care about that :-) This will actually feel faster than my new machine, when opening Microsoft Word. By a small amount. There is a newer version of this coming out soon, for $117 (Skylake/Broadwell generation). But this is available for purchase today. "Intel Core i3-4170 3M Haswell Dual-Core 3.7 GHz LGA 1150 54W" $125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117543 # of Cores 2 # of Threads 4 Clock 3.7 GHz Cache 3MB The cache is relatively insensitive. I have owned a 2.6GHz 2MB cache Intel, and the 3.0GHz 6MB cache E8400, and with few exceptions, they "feel the same". The E8400 can do 7ZIP about 50% faster than the E4700, and part of that is due to the cache. The cache does make a difference for some things. But not for Microsoft Word or Firefox web browser. Lots of regular desktop stuff, you can't tell the difference with 2MB cache or 6MB cache or 12MB cache. The E4700 setup even had deadly slow RAM (DDR2-533) and it *still* didn't make a difference. The IPC on Intel is a bit better than AMD. Say the Intel was 1.33x the Instructions Per Clock of the AMD. Then a 4GHz AMD feels the same as a 3GHz Intel. So when you see an AMD with a high clock, yes, it's nice, but the Intel is always just a little bit ahead. AMD does have a high clock processor, and it is considered to be "overclocked out of the box". But it also draws 220W while doing that, so it's some sort of poster boy for bad behavior (wasting power). AMD generally adjusts their price, to remain comparable to Intel. That's how I can double-check that I haven't made a gross error in a selection. "AMD A10-7850K Kaveri 4 CPU 3.7 GHz 4MB cache Socket FM2+ 95W" $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113359 Now, check the Passmark. Even though the 7850K is listed as 4 CPU, it's actual two dual-issue modules inside, and behaves in some ways like "2 CPU". AMD A10-7850K APU 5589 Intel Core i3-4170 5153 If we look at an 1100T, which is a true hex core... AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 5866 you would probably notice the single threaded was a bit worse. We would divide the 5866 by 6 to get a crude estimate of how much a single thread could get. ******* Part of your exercise for the "customer", is showing "improvement for dollars". So unlike buying a computer for a naive user, you're now in the unpleasant situation of (somehow) impressing this person, with how the money was well spent. A very dangerous position to be in, and either requiring deep pockets on your part (to test and vet stuff), or an unlimited budget from the customer (which you've already indicated isn't going to happen). There was a time, when this sort of exercise was a slam dunk. When I had my 300MHz Celeron with no cache on it, and I plugged in a Tualatin 1400MHz processor (which had at least some cache), the difference was night and day. That doesn't happen any more. That's why you have to go for the clock rate, and hope for the best :-) I would build up one prototype first, before kitting up for X systems, just to be sure you're on the right path. If you have a Win7 installer DVD, you can click the "Next" button when it asks for the license key, and the OS will run for 30 days without a license. That is sufficient for testing prototypes (you can't give the customer the machine that way, as the license will expire). On Win8, you cannot click Next, but there are some install-only keys available which you can use to get your 30 days grace. On Win10, no install-only keys have been spotted yet. And you cannot upgrade a Win7 install that has no license key, to Win10. The free upgrade to Win10 requires a license key in Win7 (I've already tried that). Good luck, Paul Paul, I think I found an acceptable system from a major mfg for under $350: HP 450-010 Slimline Desktop. http://www.amazon.com/HP-450-010-Sli.../dp/B00X5X3AAQ Intel Core i3-4170 3.7 GHz (upgradable to i7-4790 3.6 GHz if needed in the future), 4 GB RAM (which I would replace with the two sticks of Crucial 4GB DDR3-1333 in each of the old systems), 1 TB HDD, Intel HD Graphics 4400). Passmark score of 5153. Comes with Win8 upgradable to Win10. Do you see anything in this system that concerns you? Meanwhile, I will keep looking. Thanks for your advice on this little project. You've already helped avoid damaging this woman's friendship with me a couple of times. :-) Bob |
#6
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Motherboard Advice Needed
Bob Simon wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 1:28:06 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 6:38:53 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul Paul, Thanks for your informative reply. The owner does not know anything about the OS licenses and since this machine came with Win7 pre-installed, you may be right about it being an OEM version. How can I determine for sure if this is the case? I assumed that I could install Win7 in a new system using the old license key. If not, as you suggested, upgrading the system would no longer be a cost-effective option. DRAT! For general purpose computing, what do you think the minimum acceptable Passmark score would be? 2000? 2500? I generally work in terms of clocks. A dual core at 2GHz would be a minimum. My E8400 is a dual core at 3GHz. And considering how pudgy modern OSes are, I now consider the E8400 to be a minimum. If we use Passmark, it would be 2000 in a dual core, and 4000 in a quad core processor. That's to get enough single threaded performance (which is what most users see and feel, most of the time). I do own another machine, which is 7x faster than the E8400 in certain situations. I run 7ZIP on it, and compress backup files. Yet, for all of its multi-threaded goodness, as a desktop experience it feels about as fast as the E8400. It's not until you get out a stop watch, and see the rate it can compress to .7z archive, that you appreciate how much more powerful it is. As a representative sample, I picked this one. I selected dual core, to keep the price down. It has a high clock, which gives good single-threaded performance. It won't compress to .7Z as fast as my $1400 base price computer, but I don't really think you care about that :-) This will actually feel faster than my new machine, when opening Microsoft Word. By a small amount. There is a newer version of this coming out soon, for $117 (Skylake/Broadwell generation). But this is available for purchase today. "Intel Core i3-4170 3M Haswell Dual-Core 3.7 GHz LGA 1150 54W" $125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117543 # of Cores 2 # of Threads 4 Clock 3.7 GHz Cache 3MB The cache is relatively insensitive. I have owned a 2.6GHz 2MB cache Intel, and the 3.0GHz 6MB cache E8400, and with few exceptions, they "feel the same". The E8400 can do 7ZIP about 50% faster than the E4700, and part of that is due to the cache. The cache does make a difference for some things. But not for Microsoft Word or Firefox web browser. Lots of regular desktop stuff, you can't tell the difference with 2MB cache or 6MB cache or 12MB cache. The E4700 setup even had deadly slow RAM (DDR2-533) and it *still* didn't make a difference. The IPC on Intel is a bit better than AMD. Say the Intel was 1.33x the Instructions Per Clock of the AMD. Then a 4GHz AMD feels the same as a 3GHz Intel. So when you see an AMD with a high clock, yes, it's nice, but the Intel is always just a little bit ahead. AMD does have a high clock processor, and it is considered to be "overclocked out of the box". But it also draws 220W while doing that, so it's some sort of poster boy for bad behavior (wasting power). AMD generally adjusts their price, to remain comparable to Intel. That's how I can double-check that I haven't made a gross error in a selection. "AMD A10-7850K Kaveri 4 CPU 3.7 GHz 4MB cache Socket FM2+ 95W" $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113359 Now, check the Passmark. Even though the 7850K is listed as 4 CPU, it's actual two dual-issue modules inside, and behaves in some ways like "2 CPU". AMD A10-7850K APU 5589 Intel Core i3-4170 5153 If we look at an 1100T, which is a true hex core... AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 5866 you would probably notice the single threaded was a bit worse. We would divide the 5866 by 6 to get a crude estimate of how much a single thread could get. ******* Part of your exercise for the "customer", is showing "improvement for dollars". So unlike buying a computer for a naive user, you're now in the unpleasant situation of (somehow) impressing this person, with how the money was well spent. A very dangerous position to be in, and either requiring deep pockets on your part (to test and vet stuff), or an unlimited budget from the customer (which you've already indicated isn't going to happen). There was a time, when this sort of exercise was a slam dunk. When I had my 300MHz Celeron with no cache on it, and I plugged in a Tualatin 1400MHz processor (which had at least some cache), the difference was night and day. That doesn't happen any more. That's why you have to go for the clock rate, and hope for the best :-) I would build up one prototype first, before kitting up for X systems, just to be sure you're on the right path. If you have a Win7 installer DVD, you can click the "Next" button when it asks for the license key, and the OS will run for 30 days without a license. That is sufficient for testing prototypes (you can't give the customer the machine that way, as the license will expire). On Win8, you cannot click Next, but there are some install-only keys available which you can use to get your 30 days grace. On Win10, no install-only keys have been spotted yet. And you cannot upgrade a Win7 install that has no license key, to Win10. The free upgrade to Win10 requires a license key in Win7 (I've already tried that). Good luck, Paul Paul, I think I found an acceptable system from a major mfg for under $350: HP 450-010 Slimline Desktop. http://www.amazon.com/HP-450-010-Sli.../dp/B00X5X3AAQ Intel Core i3-4170 3.7 GHz (upgradable to i7-4790 3.6 GHz if needed in the future), 4 GB RAM (which I would replace with the two sticks of Crucial 4GB DDR3-1333 in each of the old systems), 1 TB HDD, Intel HD Graphics 4400). Passmark score of 5153. Comes with Win8 upgradable to Win10. Do you see anything in this system that concerns you? Meanwhile, I will keep looking. Thanks for your advice on this little project. You've already helped avoid damaging this woman's friendship with me a couple of times. :-) Bob I started here. http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04691477.pdf It's a dual channel machine but comes with one stick of RAM. Part of the reason for the choice they've made, is the capacity of RAM chips is getting large enough, that you can get 4GB from a single-sided DIMM (8 chips on one side). So that was about as "small" a RAM setup as they could manage (without going too non-standard). An enthusiast would use 2x4GB so both channels would be occupied, but that's not a priority. One anomaly in the PDF spec, is it says it has a PCI Express x16 slot (where you would normally put the video card), but the unit has built-in graphics in the processor. So in the case of the machine depicted in the advert, I don't see how there could be anything in that slot. Your video card upgrade choices would be limited, with the 180W internal power supply being one limitation, and the low profile short card slot being the other limitation. There might only be a handful of upgrade solutions, and not much "stronger" than the GPU in the processor. The machine does not come with a monitor. The computer has HDMI and VGA on the back. I like to verify, with these integrated GPU processors, that there is a GPU in the one I'm buying. There have been cases where a non-GPU processor is placed in a machine with monitor connectors on the back, and then the monitor connectors don't work :-) And yes, it has HD 4400. With some specs we can't be absolutely sure of... http://ark.intel.com/products/77490/...Cache-3_70-GHz Processor Graphics Intel HD Graphics 4400 (possibly 12 EU) ( https://communities.intel.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 ) As expected, it comes with a RealTek network interface chip. Generally RealTek provides jumbo drivers, so I cannot narrow down the actual chip any finer than that. http://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/...30AQO5O3KA30R1 Realtek NIC Driver Version:8.038.0115.2015 Rev.A Sep 19, 2015 The Wifi is 802.11n, which should be adequate. The listed drivers leave more than one choice, which means it is probably RealTek as well (for price reasons). It comes with Windows 8.1 Core, so it's not Pro and not intended for operation with a Domain. Which might be fine. If and when upgraded to Win10, it would be Win10 Core as well. When an OEM Business machine ships with Win 8.1 Pro, you get downgrade rights to Win7 Pro. So this machine would have no downgrade rights. That makes the machine a bit cheaper to provide an OS. And the word processing package is a switch - it comes with Kingsoft WPS Office. That a company in the Far East, attempting to make a Microsoft Office clone. If the new owner doesn't like the OS interface, you can load up Start8 or ClassicShell to restore a slightly different look to the thing. I guess the box makes me about as happy as I could expect to be with an OEM PC :-) Limited expansion possibilities, 180W power supply that will be hard to replace if it blows. But, at least it isn't a complete disaster. I've seen worse. I don't know why it comes with a keyboard and mouse. Maybe you can store those in the supply cabinet. Paul |
#7
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Motherboard Advice Needed
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 8:58:07 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
Bob Simon wrote: On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 1:28:06 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 6:38:53 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul Paul, Thanks for your informative reply. The owner does not know anything about the OS licenses and since this machine came with Win7 pre-installed, you may be right about it being an OEM version. How can I determine for sure if this is the case? I assumed that I could install Win7 in a new system using the old license key. If not, as you suggested, upgrading the system would no longer be a cost-effective option. DRAT! For general purpose computing, what do you think the minimum acceptable Passmark score would be? 2000? 2500? I generally work in terms of clocks. A dual core at 2GHz would be a minimum. My E8400 is a dual core at 3GHz. And considering how pudgy modern OSes are, I now consider the E8400 to be a minimum. If we use Passmark, it would be 2000 in a dual core, and 4000 in a quad core processor. That's to get enough single threaded performance (which is what most users see and feel, most of the time). I do own another machine, which is 7x faster than the E8400 in certain situations. I run 7ZIP on it, and compress backup files. Yet, for all of its multi-threaded goodness, as a desktop experience it feels about as fast as the E8400. It's not until you get out a stop watch, and see the rate it can compress to .7z archive, that you appreciate how much more powerful it is. As a representative sample, I picked this one. I selected dual core, to keep the price down. It has a high clock, which gives good single-threaded performance. It won't compress to .7Z as fast as my $1400 base price computer, but I don't really think you care about that :-) This will actually feel faster than my new machine, when opening Microsoft Word. By a small amount. There is a newer version of this coming out soon, for $117 (Skylake/Broadwell generation). But this is available for purchase today. "Intel Core i3-4170 3M Haswell Dual-Core 3.7 GHz LGA 1150 54W" $125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117543 # of Cores 2 # of Threads 4 Clock 3.7 GHz Cache 3MB The cache is relatively insensitive. I have owned a 2.6GHz 2MB cache Intel, and the 3.0GHz 6MB cache E8400, and with few exceptions, they "feel the same". The E8400 can do 7ZIP about 50% faster than the E4700, and part of that is due to the cache. The cache does make a difference for some things. But not for Microsoft Word or Firefox web browser. Lots of regular desktop stuff, you can't tell the difference with 2MB cache or 6MB cache or 12MB cache. The E4700 setup even had deadly slow RAM (DDR2-533) and it *still* didn't make a difference. The IPC on Intel is a bit better than AMD. Say the Intel was 1.33x the Instructions Per Clock of the AMD. Then a 4GHz AMD feels the same as a 3GHz Intel. So when you see an AMD with a high clock, yes, it's nice, but the Intel is always just a little bit ahead. AMD does have a high clock processor, and it is considered to be "overclocked out of the box". But it also draws 220W while doing that, so it's some sort of poster boy for bad behavior (wasting power). AMD generally adjusts their price, to remain comparable to Intel. That's how I can double-check that I haven't made a gross error in a selection. "AMD A10-7850K Kaveri 4 CPU 3.7 GHz 4MB cache Socket FM2+ 95W" $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113359 Now, check the Passmark. Even though the 7850K is listed as 4 CPU, it's actual two dual-issue modules inside, and behaves in some ways like "2 CPU". AMD A10-7850K APU 5589 Intel Core i3-4170 5153 If we look at an 1100T, which is a true hex core... AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 5866 you would probably notice the single threaded was a bit worse. We would divide the 5866 by 6 to get a crude estimate of how much a single thread could get. ******* Part of your exercise for the "customer", is showing "improvement for dollars". So unlike buying a computer for a naive user, you're now in the unpleasant situation of (somehow) impressing this person, with how the money was well spent. A very dangerous position to be in, and either requiring deep pockets on your part (to test and vet stuff), or an unlimited budget from the customer (which you've already indicated isn't going to happen). There was a time, when this sort of exercise was a slam dunk. When I had my 300MHz Celeron with no cache on it, and I plugged in a Tualatin 1400MHz processor (which had at least some cache), the difference was night and day. That doesn't happen any more. That's why you have to go for the clock rate, and hope for the best :-) I would build up one prototype first, before kitting up for X systems, just to be sure you're on the right path. If you have a Win7 installer DVD, you can click the "Next" button when it asks for the license key, and the OS will run for 30 days without a license. That is sufficient for testing prototypes (you can't give the customer the machine that way, as the license will expire). On Win8, you cannot click Next, but there are some install-only keys available which you can use to get your 30 days grace. On Win10, no install-only keys have been spotted yet. And you cannot upgrade a Win7 install that has no license key, to Win10. The free upgrade to Win10 requires a license key in Win7 (I've already tried that). Good luck, Paul Paul, I think I found an acceptable system from a major mfg for under $350: HP 450-010 Slimline Desktop. http://www.amazon.com/HP-450-010-Sli.../dp/B00X5X3AAQ Intel Core i3-4170 3.7 GHz (upgradable to i7-4790 3.6 GHz if needed in the future), 4 GB RAM (which I would replace with the two sticks of Crucial 4GB DDR3-1333 in each of the old systems), 1 TB HDD, Intel HD Graphics 4400). Passmark score of 5153. Comes with Win8 upgradable to Win10. Do you see anything in this system that concerns you? Meanwhile, I will keep looking. Thanks for your advice on this little project. You've already helped avoid damaging this woman's friendship with me a couple of times. :-) Bob I started here. http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04691477.pdf It's a dual channel machine but comes with one stick of RAM. Part of the reason for the choice they've made, is the capacity of RAM chips is getting large enough, that you can get 4GB from a single-sided DIMM (8 chips on one side). So that was about as "small" a RAM setup as they could manage (without going too non-standard). An enthusiast would use 2x4GB so both channels would be occupied, but that's not a priority. One anomaly in the PDF spec, is it says it has a PCI Express x16 slot (where you would normally put the video card), but the unit has built-in graphics in the processor. So in the case of the machine depicted in the advert, I don't see how there could be anything in that slot. Your video card upgrade choices would be limited, with the 180W internal power supply being one limitation, and the low profile short card slot being the other limitation. There might only be a handful of upgrade solutions, and not much "stronger" than the GPU in the processor. The machine does not come with a monitor. The computer has HDMI and VGA on the back. I like to verify, with these integrated GPU processors, that there is a GPU in the one I'm buying. There have been cases where a non-GPU processor is placed in a machine with monitor connectors on the back, and then the monitor connectors don't work :-) And yes, it has HD 4400. With some specs we can't be absolutely sure of... http://ark.intel.com/products/77490/...Cache-3_70-GHz Processor Graphics Intel HD Graphics 4400 (possibly 12 EU) ( https://communities.intel.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 ) As expected, it comes with a RealTek network interface chip. Generally RealTek provides jumbo drivers, so I cannot narrow down the actual chip any finer than that. http://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/...30AQO5O3KA30R1 Realtek NIC Driver Version:8.038.0115.2015 Rev.A Sep 19, 2015 The Wifi is 802.11n, which should be adequate. The listed drivers leave more than one choice, which means it is probably RealTek as well (for price reasons). It comes with Windows 8.1 Core, so it's not Pro and not intended for operation with a Domain. Which might be fine. If and when upgraded to Win10, it would be Win10 Core as well. When an OEM Business machine ships with Win 8.1 Pro, you get downgrade rights to Win7 Pro. So this machine would have no downgrade rights. That makes the machine a bit cheaper to provide an OS. And the word processing package is a switch - it comes with Kingsoft WPS Office. That a company in the Far East, attempting to make a Microsoft Office clone. If the new owner doesn't like the OS interface, you can load up Start8 or ClassicShell to restore a slightly different look to the thing. I guess the box makes me about as happy as I could expect to be with an OEM PC :-) Limited expansion possibilities, 180W power supply that will be hard to replace if it blows. But, at least it isn't a complete disaster. I've seen worse. I don't know why it comes with a keyboard and mouse. Maybe you can store those in the supply cabinet. Paul Paul, For this application, I doubt that mediocre video performance will matter, nevertheless, your comments left me wanting a better option. So I went back to your suggestion to check out Tiger Direct's off-lease systems and found three under $250 that all look good to me: HP Compaq Elite 8000 Desktop PC - Intel Core 2 Quad Q9505 2.83GHz $249.99 (Passmark: 3641) http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...=1AS-101768056 HP Elite 8100 SFF PC - Intel Core i5 3.2G $239.99 (Passmark: 6933) http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...=FLN-103011576 HP Compaq 8200 Elite Series Desktop - Intel(R) Core(tm) i3-2100 3.1 GHz $229.99 (Passmark: 3629) http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...o=9631469&Sku= Based on the Passmark scores, I would expect the 8100 with its i5 to way outperform the other two and the price is good. Do you see any major issues with this system? Bob |
#8
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Motherboard Advice Needed
Bob Simon wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 8:58:07 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 1:28:06 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 6:38:53 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Bob Simon wrote: A friend who runs a small business asked me to help her make her Compaq 100B PCs run faster. It turns out they have plenty of RAM but a very slow processor that appears to be soldered directly to the motherboard. Since this system does not have an internal power supply, I presume she will need a new chassis, power supply, motherboard, and CPU (assuming she can re-use her 2 sticks of 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM per PC). So far, do you agree? She has several machines to upgrade and wants to minimize expenses so I looked for CPUs under $50. Do you agree that we can get the best bang for the buck with an AMD processor and appropriate motherboard? One CPU I looked at is the Phenom 9850 Quad Core for around $50. At this price, I think it looks like a good candidate. It takes a AM2 or AM2+ socket. Is this socket a good choice? If so, and if you think she should proceed along these lines, can you recommend an inexpensive motherboard that will take this processor? Thanks! Bob This chart can help you spot good choices. But the prices on the used stuff could be wildly off, as could the resulting value metric. For example, my E8400 wasn't $27.00 when I bought it, it was a lot more. At the time I purchased it, the value metric was terrible. http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php Passmark Rank Value Imaginary Metric Price AMD E-350 (2C) 755 1555 NA NA AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core (4C) 2920 723 58.41 $50.00* E8400 @ 3.00GHz (my CPU, 2C) 2179 930 80.71 $27.00 So the E-350 is a third the speed of the machine I am typing on. Yikes. I think my greatest fear would be throwing good money after bad. The very first question I'd have, is about the OS license. If the machines came with OEM Win7, it would be tied to the "Compaq" SLIC table of the motherboard. Meaning that a non-Compaq motherboard, would invalidate OS activation. So before suggesting any hardware solution, you need to address the OS issue first. ******* You could try shopping around Tigerdirect and see if they have something. This particular item is used ("off lease"), so it's been under someone else's desk for the last 3 years. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...718&CatId=2628 Before buying too old an item, remember that some brands of PCs had a terrible time with "bad caps". So don't go too far back in time. There were some particular Dell models with a 95% fallout rate - you could only buy those if they were "re-capped". When you find a model number of something you like, try a Google on the model number plus terms like "bad caps" and see if the model is affected. Some of those are so bad, you cannot even shop for a replacement motherboard and expect it to last any better. Only a re-capped board, done by someone who knows what they're doing, is worth the purchase price. So do the research, before plunking down the money. An off-lease machine could need maintenance. New CR2032 battery for the coin cell. Replacement of worn cooling fans (make sure the fans are standard size and form factor). The power supply could be shot. The smaller the form-factor of PC, the harder it is to find replacement power supplies. You might even need to swap the hard drive or optical drive from the old PC (if it'll fit, and if the off-lease machine drives are worn out). For example, a machine that's been sitting in a public library could be pretty beat up. So while you can save money, the machines may not be "perfect". Paul Paul, Thanks for your informative reply. The owner does not know anything about the OS licenses and since this machine came with Win7 pre-installed, you may be right about it being an OEM version. How can I determine for sure if this is the case? I assumed that I could install Win7 in a new system using the old license key. If not, as you suggested, upgrading the system would no longer be a cost-effective option. DRAT! For general purpose computing, what do you think the minimum acceptable Passmark score would be? 2000? 2500? I generally work in terms of clocks. A dual core at 2GHz would be a minimum. My E8400 is a dual core at 3GHz. And considering how pudgy modern OSes are, I now consider the E8400 to be a minimum. If we use Passmark, it would be 2000 in a dual core, and 4000 in a quad core processor. That's to get enough single threaded performance (which is what most users see and feel, most of the time). I do own another machine, which is 7x faster than the E8400 in certain situations. I run 7ZIP on it, and compress backup files. Yet, for all of its multi-threaded goodness, as a desktop experience it feels about as fast as the E8400. It's not until you get out a stop watch, and see the rate it can compress to .7z archive, that you appreciate how much more powerful it is. As a representative sample, I picked this one. I selected dual core, to keep the price down. It has a high clock, which gives good single-threaded performance. It won't compress to .7Z as fast as my $1400 base price computer, but I don't really think you care about that :-) This will actually feel faster than my new machine, when opening Microsoft Word. By a small amount. There is a newer version of this coming out soon, for $117 (Skylake/Broadwell generation). But this is available for purchase today. "Intel Core i3-4170 3M Haswell Dual-Core 3.7 GHz LGA 1150 54W" $125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117543 # of Cores 2 # of Threads 4 Clock 3.7 GHz Cache 3MB The cache is relatively insensitive. I have owned a 2.6GHz 2MB cache Intel, and the 3.0GHz 6MB cache E8400, and with few exceptions, they "feel the same". The E8400 can do 7ZIP about 50% faster than the E4700, and part of that is due to the cache. The cache does make a difference for some things. But not for Microsoft Word or Firefox web browser. Lots of regular desktop stuff, you can't tell the difference with 2MB cache or 6MB cache or 12MB cache. The E4700 setup even had deadly slow RAM (DDR2-533) and it *still* didn't make a difference. The IPC on Intel is a bit better than AMD. Say the Intel was 1.33x the Instructions Per Clock of the AMD. Then a 4GHz AMD feels the same as a 3GHz Intel. So when you see an AMD with a high clock, yes, it's nice, but the Intel is always just a little bit ahead. AMD does have a high clock processor, and it is considered to be "overclocked out of the box". But it also draws 220W while doing that, so it's some sort of poster boy for bad behavior (wasting power). AMD generally adjusts their price, to remain comparable to Intel. That's how I can double-check that I haven't made a gross error in a selection. "AMD A10-7850K Kaveri 4 CPU 3.7 GHz 4MB cache Socket FM2+ 95W" $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113359 Now, check the Passmark. Even though the 7850K is listed as 4 CPU, it's actual two dual-issue modules inside, and behaves in some ways like "2 CPU". AMD A10-7850K APU 5589 Intel Core i3-4170 5153 If we look at an 1100T, which is a true hex core... AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 5866 you would probably notice the single threaded was a bit worse. We would divide the 5866 by 6 to get a crude estimate of how much a single thread could get. ******* Part of your exercise for the "customer", is showing "improvement for dollars". So unlike buying a computer for a naive user, you're now in the unpleasant situation of (somehow) impressing this person, with how the money was well spent. A very dangerous position to be in, and either requiring deep pockets on your part (to test and vet stuff), or an unlimited budget from the customer (which you've already indicated isn't going to happen). There was a time, when this sort of exercise was a slam dunk. When I had my 300MHz Celeron with no cache on it, and I plugged in a Tualatin 1400MHz processor (which had at least some cache), the difference was night and day. That doesn't happen any more. That's why you have to go for the clock rate, and hope for the best :-) I would build up one prototype first, before kitting up for X systems, just to be sure you're on the right path. If you have a Win7 installer DVD, you can click the "Next" button when it asks for the license key, and the OS will run for 30 days without a license. That is sufficient for testing prototypes (you can't give the customer the machine that way, as the license will expire). On Win8, you cannot click Next, but there are some install-only keys available which you can use to get your 30 days grace. On Win10, no install-only keys have been spotted yet. And you cannot upgrade a Win7 install that has no license key, to Win10. The free upgrade to Win10 requires a license key in Win7 (I've already tried that). Good luck, Paul Paul, I think I found an acceptable system from a major mfg for under $350: HP 450-010 Slimline Desktop. http://www.amazon.com/HP-450-010-Sli.../dp/B00X5X3AAQ Intel Core i3-4170 3.7 GHz (upgradable to i7-4790 3.6 GHz if needed in the future), 4 GB RAM (which I would replace with the two sticks of Crucial 4GB DDR3-1333 in each of the old systems), 1 TB HDD, Intel HD Graphics 4400). Passmark score of 5153. Comes with Win8 upgradable to Win10. Do you see anything in this system that concerns you? Meanwhile, I will keep looking. Thanks for your advice on this little project. You've already helped avoid damaging this woman's friendship with me a couple of times. :-) Bob I started here. http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04691477.pdf It's a dual channel machine but comes with one stick of RAM. Part of the reason for the choice they've made, is the capacity of RAM chips is getting large enough, that you can get 4GB from a single-sided DIMM (8 chips on one side). So that was about as "small" a RAM setup as they could manage (without going too non-standard). An enthusiast would use 2x4GB so both channels would be occupied, but that's not a priority. One anomaly in the PDF spec, is it says it has a PCI Express x16 slot (where you would normally put the video card), but the unit has built-in graphics in the processor. So in the case of the machine depicted in the advert, I don't see how there could be anything in that slot. Your video card upgrade choices would be limited, with the 180W internal power supply being one limitation, and the low profile short card slot being the other limitation. There might only be a handful of upgrade solutions, and not much "stronger" than the GPU in the processor. The machine does not come with a monitor. The computer has HDMI and VGA on the back. I like to verify, with these integrated GPU processors, that there is a GPU in the one I'm buying. There have been cases where a non-GPU processor is placed in a machine with monitor connectors on the back, and then the monitor connectors don't work :-) And yes, it has HD 4400. With some specs we can't be absolutely sure of... http://ark.intel.com/products/77490/...Cache-3_70-GHz Processor Graphics Intel HD Graphics 4400 (possibly 12 EU) ( https://communities.intel.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 ) As expected, it comes with a RealTek network interface chip. Generally RealTek provides jumbo drivers, so I cannot narrow down the actual chip any finer than that. http://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/...30AQO5O3KA30R1 Realtek NIC Driver Version:8.038.0115.2015 Rev.A Sep 19, 2015 The Wifi is 802.11n, which should be adequate. The listed drivers leave more than one choice, which means it is probably RealTek as well (for price reasons). It comes with Windows 8.1 Core, so it's not Pro and not intended for operation with a Domain. Which might be fine. If and when upgraded to Win10, it would be Win10 Core as well. When an OEM Business machine ships with Win 8.1 Pro, you get downgrade rights to Win7 Pro. So this machine would have no downgrade rights. That makes the machine a bit cheaper to provide an OS. And the word processing package is a switch - it comes with Kingsoft WPS Office. That a company in the Far East, attempting to make a Microsoft Office clone. If the new owner doesn't like the OS interface, you can load up Start8 or ClassicShell to restore a slightly different look to the thing. I guess the box makes me about as happy as I could expect to be with an OEM PC :-) Limited expansion possibilities, 180W power supply that will be hard to replace if it blows. But, at least it isn't a complete disaster. I've seen worse. I don't know why it comes with a keyboard and mouse. Maybe you can store those in the supply cabinet. Paul Paul, For this application, I doubt that mediocre video performance will matter, nevertheless, your comments left me wanting a better option. So I went back to your suggestion to check out Tiger Direct's off-lease systems and found three under $250 that all look good to me: HP Compaq Elite 8000 Desktop PC - Intel Core 2 Quad Q9505 2.83GHz $249.99 (Passmark: 3641) http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...=1AS-101768056 HP Elite 8100 SFF PC - Intel Core i5 3.2G $239.99 (Passmark: 6933) http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...=FLN-103011576 HP Compaq 8200 Elite Series Desktop - Intel(R) Core(tm) i3-2100 3.1 GHz $229.99 (Passmark: 3629) http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...o=9631469&Sku= Based on the Passmark scores, I would expect the 8100 with its i5 to way outperform the other two and the price is good. Do you see any major issues with this system? Bob The 8100 has "GMA 4500" graphics. That's about as low as you can go. You wouldn't catch me buying that :-) The Compaq Elite 8000 has NVIDIA Quadro NVS 290. It has 256MB of onboard graphics memory. It's a 21W card. With classic 6.4GB/sec graphics memory bandwidth. (They've used that speed on the low end $50 cards forever and ever.) So that's not exactly a barn burner. I probably have four video cards with that same weak bandwidth. The Compaq 8200 Elite has a GPU inside the CPU, and it is HD 2000. It has 6 EU (execution units). The machine we were previously discussing had 12 EU. (has a table with the EU info...) http://www.legionhardware.com/articl...ridge ,4.html Using this... http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php Quadro NVS 290 G3D = 99 Intel HD 3000 G3D = 310 (so the HD 2000 is half that, and still faster than the NVS 290) Intel G45/G43 G3D = 70 (G43 contains Intel GMA X4500) And the machine from yesterday, with HD 4400 Intel HD 4400 G3D = 545 Have a look through the videocardbenchmark thing for something you like. Paul |
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