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Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card ...



 
 
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  #61  
Old March 29th 07, 12:17 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
Tony Pacc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card ...

Well look at this http://ati.amd.com/technology/hypermemory.html it
sure shows a lot of ati cards including the x 1300
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Tony Pacc wrote:
Ati 1300 uses Hypermemory,I have 1300 Pro and pretty sure it uses
Hypermemory.


Check again and you'll find that it has 256 MB or more of GDDR2 RAM on
board.

You need to read the specs on the _board_, not the _chip_.

You'll mostly find Hypermemory on low-end laptops but actually it's rare
even there--usually the low end will use Intel embedded video instead of
ATI.

"Augustus" wrote in message
news:%NWNh.15566$__3.7401@edtnps90...

"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
news J. Clarke wrote:
Augustus wrote:
"Barry Watzman" wrote in message
...
Hey, Sky King: It just doesn't make to get a card that's not
Vista (Aero) compatible when one that is doesn't cost any more.
Without regard to whether or not one has current plans to
actually use Vista (plans change).
This is essentially my point.

I don't know what you people are on about. It's hard to find a
PCI-Express video board that is _not_ "Aero compatible". You'd
have to pretty much set out deliberately to find one. Seems to me
that it's a non-issue.



I believe they are confusing 'Aero' compatibility or capabilities
with either HDCP or DX10 compatibilities, as you say, nearly every
card will run desktop compositioning, including non current cards.

DX10 compliance, a whole different issue. The mainstream GeForce 8
series will be available in about two weeks, so there will be more

No, I'm not confusing Aero compatability with DX10 compliance. Vista
Aero on a low memory 64bit turbo-cache or hypermemory style card
will wok but is not desirable. It has sluggish performance compared
to even the 1300 series and 7300 cards. And there's plenty of bottom
feeder cards out there with 64bit memory and low dedicated RAM.
Vista Aero doesn't require much. But you will defintely feel a
difference between a 64bit 7100LE Turbocache or a 64 bit 1550
Hypermemory versus a "real" low end 7300 or 1300 series given the
same hardware.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)



  #62  
Old March 29th 07, 01:00 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card ...

Tony Pacc wrote:
Well look at this http://ati.amd.com/technology/hypermemory.html
it sure shows a lot of ati cards including the x 1300


Nope. It shows processors, not _cards_.

You're confusing "can" with "must". Those chips can be configured to
use Hypermemory. That does not mean that they must be used that way.


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Tony Pacc wrote:
Ati 1300 uses Hypermemory,I have 1300 Pro and pretty sure it uses
Hypermemory.


Check again and you'll find that it has 256 MB or more of GDDR2 RAM
on board.

You need to read the specs on the _board_, not the _chip_.

You'll mostly find Hypermemory on low-end laptops but actually it's
rare even there--usually the low end will use Intel embedded video
instead of ATI.

"Augustus" wrote in message
news:%NWNh.15566$__3.7401@edtnps90...

"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
news J. Clarke wrote:
Augustus wrote:
"Barry Watzman" wrote in message
...
Hey, Sky King: It just doesn't make to get a card that's not
Vista (Aero) compatible when one that is doesn't cost any more.
Without regard to whether or not one has current plans to
actually use Vista (plans change).
This is essentially my point.

I don't know what you people are on about. It's hard to find a
PCI-Express video board that is _not_ "Aero compatible". You'd
have to pretty much set out deliberately to find one. Seems to
me that it's a non-issue.



I believe they are confusing 'Aero' compatibility or capabilities
with either HDCP or DX10 compatibilities, as you say, nearly every
card will run desktop compositioning, including non current cards.

DX10 compliance, a whole different issue. The mainstream GeForce 8
series will be available in about two weeks, so there will be more

No, I'm not confusing Aero compatability with DX10 compliance.
Vista Aero on a low memory 64bit turbo-cache or hypermemory style
card will wok but is not desirable. It has sluggish performance
compared to even the 1300 series and 7300 cards. And there's
plenty of bottom feeder cards out there with 64bit memory and low
dedicated RAM. Vista Aero doesn't require much. But you will
defintely feel a difference between a 64bit 7100LE Turbocache or a
64 bit 1550 Hypermemory versus a "real" low end 7300 or 1300
series given the same hardware.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #63  
Old March 29th 07, 01:04 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:14:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

SoCalCommie wrote:
But they have to let me know when they're coming. I have to let them
in and I can restrict their access to their ****. Right? (And,
generally, they're not the best and the brightest anyway!)


Yeah, but "their ****" includes the CableCard that is keyed to the
computer.


Some do and some don't.
I've finally found something good about Charter:-)) No Cable cards.


So you're saying that they provide some way to record HD premium content
on your computer without a Cable Card? Care to tell us how you connect
your computer to their system?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #64  
Old March 29th 07, 01:46 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
Barry Watzman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,148
Default Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card ...

The X1300 and many other ATI chips CAN support Hypermemory (shared
memory), but it's only an option, and in any given installation they
either may or may not. In most cases, when they are on a motherboard or
in a laptops, Hypermemory is used, but when the chip is on a PCI Express
or even AGP add-on card, the card has it's own dedicated memory and
Hypermemory is not used. However, these are only general rules, any
given implementation may or may not implement Hypermemory.


Tony Pacc wrote:
Well look at this http://ati.amd.com/technology/hypermemory.html
it sure shows a lot of ati cards including the x 1300
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Tony Pacc wrote:
Ati 1300 uses Hypermemory,I have 1300 Pro and pretty sure it uses
Hypermemory.


Check again and you'll find that it has 256 MB or more of GDDR2 RAM on
board.

You need to read the specs on the _board_, not the _chip_.

You'll mostly find Hypermemory on low-end laptops but actually it's rare
even there--usually the low end will use Intel embedded video instead of
ATI.

"Augustus" wrote in message
news:%NWNh.15566$__3.7401@edtnps90...

"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
news J. Clarke wrote:
Augustus wrote:
"Barry Watzman" wrote in message
...
Hey, Sky King: It just doesn't make to get a card that's not
Vista (Aero) compatible when one that is doesn't cost any more.
Without regard to whether or not one has current plans to
actually use Vista (plans change).
This is essentially my point.

I don't know what you people are on about. It's hard to find a
PCI-Express video board that is _not_ "Aero compatible". You'd
have to pretty much set out deliberately to find one. Seems to me
that it's a non-issue.



I believe they are confusing 'Aero' compatibility or capabilities
with either HDCP or DX10 compatibilities, as you say, nearly every
card will run desktop compositioning, including non current cards.

DX10 compliance, a whole different issue. The mainstream GeForce 8
series will be available in about two weeks, so there will be more

No, I'm not confusing Aero compatability with DX10 compliance. Vista
Aero on a low memory 64bit turbo-cache or hypermemory style card
will wok but is not desirable. It has sluggish performance compared
to even the 1300 series and 7300 cards. And there's plenty of bottom
feeder cards out there with 64bit memory and low dedicated RAM.
Vista Aero doesn't require much. But you will defintely feel a
difference between a 64bit 7100LE Turbocache or a 64 bit 1550
Hypermemory versus a "real" low end 7300 or 1300 series given the
same hardware.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)



  #65  
Old March 29th 07, 05:08 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
George Mooth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:18:56 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:14:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

SoCalCommie wrote:
But they have to let me know when they're coming. I have to let them
in and I can restrict their access to their ****. Right? (And,
generally, they're not the best and the brightest anyway!)


Yeah, but "their ****" includes the CableCard that is keyed to the
computer.


Some do and some don't.
I've finally found something good about Charter:-)) No Cable cards.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


I have comcast cable and I have no cable card. A technician
never accessed my computer either. What's up with your
cable provider?

Geo.
  #66  
Old March 30th 07, 11:13 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:04:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:14:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

SoCalCommie wrote:
But they have to let me know when they're coming. I have to let them
in and I can restrict their access to their ****. Right? (And,
generally, they're not the best and the brightest anyway!)

Yeah, but "their ****" includes the CableCard that is keyed to the
computer.


Some do and some don't.
I've finally found something good about Charter:-)) No Cable cards.


So you're saying that they provide some way to record HD premium content


Ah, no. that's not what I'm saying. They don't use cards or STBs. The
digital feeds right into your cable ready TV set unless you have a tV
that doesn't and then you do need a STB.

on your computer without a Cable Card? Care to tell us how you connect
your computer to their system?


I have not tried to connect which would be a waste of time as the only
signals coming into our house are basic analog and the only reason we
get those is the package with high speed internet is relatively
inexpensive.


--

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #67  
Old March 30th 07, 12:41 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:04:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:14:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

SoCalCommie wrote:
But they have to let me know when they're coming. I have to let
them in and I can restrict their access to their ****. Right?
(And, generally, they're not the best and the brightest anyway!)

Yeah, but "their ****" includes the CableCard that is keyed to the
computer.

Some do and some don't.
I've finally found something good about Charter:-)) No Cable cards.


So you're saying that they provide some way to record HD premium
content


Ah, no. that's not what I'm saying. They don't use cards or STBs. The
digital feeds right into your cable ready TV set unless you have a tV
that doesn't and then you do need a STB.


Geez, you're talking about analog cable which has no high definition
capability whatsoever. DRM is not an issue with standard definition,
even with an STB. Only applies to high definition.

on your computer without a Cable Card? Care to tell us how you
connect your computer to their system?


I have not tried to connect which would be a waste of time as the only
signals coming into our house are basic analog and the only reason we
get those is the package with high speed internet is relatively
inexpensive.


I see. So you have no experience at all with the use of a computer as a
DVR.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #68  
Old March 31st 07, 06:45 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:41:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:04:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:14:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

SoCalCommie wrote:
But they have to let me know when they're coming. I have to let
them in and I can restrict their access to their ****. Right?
(And, generally, they're not the best and the brightest anyway!)

Yeah, but "their ****" includes the CableCard that is keyed to the
computer.

Some do and some don't.
I've finally found something good about Charter:-)) No Cable cards.

So you're saying that they provide some way to record HD premium
content


Ah, no. that's not what I'm saying. They don't use cards or STBs. The
digital feeds right into your cable ready TV set unless you have a tV
that doesn't and then you do need a STB.


Geez, you're talking about analog cable which has no high definition
capability whatsoever. DRM is not an issue with standard definition,
even with an STB. Only applies to high definition.


I'm well aware of that. The statement was made earlier in the thread
that cable was required to carry both the analog and digital in the
basic package and they do not do that here. Only analog is in the
basic package. With Charter it's not a matter of codes on a STB, they
have to come out and change the filter(s) at the pole so you can
receive that block of signals.


on your computer without a Cable Card? Care to tell us how you
connect your computer to their system?


I have not tried to connect which would be a waste of time as the only
signals coming into our house are basic analog and the only reason we
get those is the package with high speed internet is relatively
inexpensive.


I see. So you have no experience at all with the use of a computer as a
DVR.


Didn't say that either as it wasn't the original question.

I have one of the computers out in the shop set up to record HDTV
OTA as well as SD digital from the satellite via S-video. It uses the
MSI tuner and capture card. For OTA, or cable it will take digital or
analog, SD or HD, time shift, and do most of the things TVio will do.
I also records and plays back HD) It includes a schedule as well
although the free schedule isn't nearly as elaborate as the one to
which you can subscribe..
What it will not do is take a HDMI input that is HDCP compliant. I've
found several capture cards listed that do, but so far I've not found
any one who has them. Whether those cards will still permit tecording
HD remains to be seen. They are basic and commercial and run from the
basic card at $250 USD with the commercial starting at $1000 and going
to something like $2500 as I recall.

--

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #69  
Old March 31st 07, 10:57 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

Roger wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:41:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:04:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:14:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

SoCalCommie wrote:
But they have to let me know when they're coming. I have to let
them in and I can restrict their access to their ****. Right?
(And, generally, they're not the best and the brightest anyway!)

Yeah, but "their ****" includes the CableCard that is keyed to
the computer.

Some do and some don't.
I've finally found something good about Charter:-)) No Cable
cards.

So you're saying that they provide some way to record HD premium
content

Ah, no. that's not what I'm saying. They don't use cards or STBs.
The digital feeds right into your cable ready TV set unless you
have a tV that doesn't and then you do need a STB.


Geez, you're talking about analog cable which has no high definition
capability whatsoever. DRM is not an issue with standard definition,
even with an STB. Only applies to high definition.


I'm well aware of that. The statement was made earlier in the thread
that cable was required to carry both the analog and digital in the
basic package and they do not do that here. Only analog is in the
basic package. With Charter it's not a matter of codes on a STB, they
have to come out and change the filter(s) at the pole so you can
receive that block of signals.


You're confusing analog cable with analog outputs.

There is no requirement that any cable company discontinue their analog
service, which is different from transmitting analog channels via their
digital service.

They are required to carry the digital channels in addition to the
analog channels, but they are not required to break your door down and
force you to accept a device that allows you to view the digital
channels. That doesn't mean that they are not there on the cable or
that if you ask them to enable them they will refuse to do so.

on your computer without a Cable Card? Care to tell us how you
connect your computer to their system?

I have not tried to connect which would be a waste of time as the
only signals coming into our house are basic analog and the only
reason we get those is the package with high speed internet is
relatively inexpensive.


I see. So you have no experience at all with the use of a computer
as a DVR.


Didn't say that either as it wasn't the original question.

I have one of the computers out in the shop set up to record HDTV
OTA as well as SD digital from the satellite via S-video. It uses the
MSI tuner and capture card. For OTA, or cable it will take digital or
analog, SD or HD, time shift, and do most of the things TVio will do.
I also records and plays back HD) It includes a schedule as well
although the free schedule isn't nearly as elaborate as the one to
which you can subscribe..


If your MSI tuner can capture QAM, then you might find it an interesting
exercise to plug the cable into it and see if it sees anything.

What it will not do is take a HDMI input that is HDCP compliant. I've
found several capture cards listed that do, but so far I've not found
any one who has them. Whether those cards will still permit tecording
HD remains to be seen. They are basic and commercial and run from the
basic card at $250 USD with the commercial starting at $1000 and going
to something like $2500 as I recall.


Whether they allow recording is entirely up to the cable provider. If
the cable box is not set up to require HDCP handshake on the HDMI output
then you can record from it, if it is so set up then you still won't
have a chance of recording from it unless your board is part of a
certified machine.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #70  
Old April 1st 07, 02:20 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati
Travis King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Justification for DirectX 10 and Vista (was Looking for a "pretty good" PCI-E video card)

I've got a cheap Visioneer 5800 USB scanner that's classified as "End of
Life" and has no drivers for Vista, but I am using the XP drivers and it's
working just fine after a little bit of work to get the scanner to install.
"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:04:54 GMT, "Slap" wrote:


"linux57" wrote in message
...

I'm interested in some justification for getting upgrades that require
this level of performance. For most applications / home PCs, nobody has
shown that there is any justification for DirectX 10 or Vista.

My personal opinion (and this is my field), there is no real
justification outside of security for the home PC.

Huh? Put a naked girl in the desert and a couple guys will show up.
Build
a road, well many more will show up.


What's she look like and which desert...(coordinates will do)

In a while... less than year methinks all new games, programs, etc will
use
Vista, DX10 etc. The road has been built, just waiting for the traffic.


Although I do agree with you...mostly...:-)) "I think" (which means
I really don't know for sure) that most applications will continue to
run quite nicely on XP Pro and DX9. I also think *most* applications
will be happy with DX 9 for some time to come. I emphasized the most
as it certainly will not be all.

There are many DX9 cards currently running on Vista (they reportedly
sold 90 million copies the first month) and few except the diehard
gamers will have the 8800 GTX and GTS cards which are the only ones at
present that are DX10 compliant. So the rest including the new
computers that are preloaded will still have DX-9 hardware.

Justification is a relative term or at least I put it about a step
above rationalization. ( usually use the rationalization to create the
justification) Where one person is going to say Vista is a "must
have" another may say "it'd be nice" to another who would say "I
should be able to get along nicely on XP Pro and DX-9".

"For me" the only real justification I can see "near term" is the
added security with Vista that most users could have had with a
properly configured installation of XP Pro behind a firewall. Longer
term I am going to want DX10 on at least one "state-of-the-art"
machine as that's what it takes to run FSX. (I hope they fix the code
in that to work with multi core and share the load with the GPU) The
other four machines will *probably* stay as XP Pro until what ever
comes out after Vista, or will end up as LINUX machines.
They also say Vista is more stable than XP but I've never had a
stability problem with XP on 4 machines (recently went to 5)

I do a lot of photo editing and one machine is pretty much a
multimedia center. it'll be a while before either of those go Vista
due to the DRM/premium content and HDCP compliant component
availability. When I can play HD DVDs (which ever mode) and use my
computer as a high definition equivalent of TvIO, or my 922 receiver
then those machines *Might* get changed over.

The only real drawback I see for the end user is DRM while I view WGA
with mixed emotions as it has both its good and bad sides. OTOH if you
are running XP you *WILL* be running WGA if auto updates are enabled.
It's on two of the five machines and has not created any problems so
far other than the one machine got confused when trying to install it
and it took three tires before it'd work correctly.

With the installed base of XP out there, it's likely that "for the
home user" there is really very little valid justification, or gain to
be had by upgrading to vista. IOW, it'd be a very rare home user that
would gain anything (or see any difference other than eye candy) by
upgrading. So except for a very small percent, the home users could
stay with XP and never even notice there was a Vista. OTOH if it had
the security most home users could still get by with 98SE. Surfing
the Internet and e-mail take very little power. Word processors have
become quite bloated. As I work with web pages I think they should ban
Front page and Word's ability to convert a doc to HTML. Those two add
new meaning to the words "bloat code".

One other question comes to mind: How many of the home users have the
hardware that would work with Vista without requiring some updating.
Some older printers and scanners may create some problems even with
the generic drivers available. I'm not so sure I can get a Vista
driver for my Nikon LS5000ED scanner which is one of the higher end
scanners. Particularly as there is less and less call for scanners
with cameras going digital.

The home user base *will* eventually migrate to Vista as they replace
their old machines with new ones that come preloaded with OS and Apps
which would certainly be the safest route. How fast this will
happen,or how many will migrate before the next OS is out is any one's
guess. There are a LOT of Win 98 and 98SE machines still out there
that don't have the horsepower to run XP and Office let alone Vista or
the latest version of office, and multimedia apps.

OTOH The rest of us might have a *LOT* to gain by the average home
user having an OS that enforces the security, that they can't seem to
be bothered with at present. I would be nice to see those millions of
zombies go away.

Still, with the statement that the *NEXT* OS is only a couple years
away (I think 09 was listed) Vista may not be much more than an
interim OS between XP and what ever comes next. It is an evolutionary
step that is pretty much like XP with the security (control of what
the user can do) wrapped around the Kernel, plus a few extra features.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


 




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