A computer components & hardware forum. HardwareBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » HardwareBanter forum » Processors » AMD x86-64 Processors
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The end of the road for the DIY PC?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old November 28th 12, 07:34 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
GMAN[_14_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 180
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

In article , VanguardLH wrote:
"daytripper" wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place
(both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and
the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid
pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and
then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo.

[...]

That's some funny stuff right there.

Unless you're serious, of course...

Cheers!


I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a
ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with
the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on
its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the
backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed
against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a
matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the
grid?

You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats
the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on
the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a
soldering iron? Heat travels.

Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that
it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not
the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket.
Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.

If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to desolder
  #12  
Old November 28th 12, 07:45 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
Chris S.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?


"GMAN" wrote in message
...
In article , VanguardLH
wrote:
"daytripper" wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place
(both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and
the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid
pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and
then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo.
[...]

That's some funny stuff right there.

Unless you're serious, of course...

Cheers!


I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a
ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with
the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on
its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the
backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed
against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a
matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the
grid?

You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats
the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on
the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a
soldering iron? Heat travels.

Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that
it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not
the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket.
Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.

If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to
desolder


Or merely to remove excess solder....

Chris


  #13  
Old November 28th 12, 11:10 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
GMAN[_14_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 180
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

In article , "Chris S." wrote:

"GMAN" wrote in message
...
In article , VanguardLH
wrote:
"daytripper" wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place
(both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and
the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid
pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and
then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo.
[...]

That's some funny stuff right there.

Unless you're serious, of course...

Cheers!

I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a
ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with
the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on
its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the
backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed
against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a
matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the
grid?

You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats
the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on
the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a
soldering iron? Heat travels.

Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that
it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not
the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket.
Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.

If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to
desolder


Or merely to remove excess solder....

Chris


True, but if your skill level is that poor, that you need to remove alot of
excess solder, you shouldnt really be doing it in the first place.
  #14  
Old November 28th 12, 11:12 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 03:53:53 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

"daytripper" wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place
(both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and
the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid
pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and
then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo.

[...]

That's some funny stuff right there.

Unless you're serious, of course...

Cheers!


I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right?


Daytrip' is quite well acquainted with the technology.

It's a
ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with
the balls of solder on its pads,


It does. The 'B' thing, remember?

the mobo come with balls of solder on
its grid


It does.

and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the
backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed
against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a
matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the
grid?


....and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It
has to be quite closely regulated.

You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats
the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on
the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a
soldering iron? Heat travels.


You're assuming a lot of things here; nothing on the other side. A
matching pattern on the other side with vias connecting them, perfect
and matched conduction, and probably a thousand other variables. Might
just as well use a toaster oven.

Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that
it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not
the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket.


"Knowing how to solder" has nothing to do with it. This is not a
normal soldering operation.

Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.


It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you.

  #15  
Old November 29th 12, 12:59 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

"GMAN" wrote:

If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to desolder


You don't know that you have to heat the solder wick so the solder flows
into it?
  #16  
Old November 29th 12, 01:04 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

"Paul" wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:
"daytripper" wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place
(both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and
the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid
pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and
then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo.
[...]

That's some funny stuff right there.

Unless you're serious, of course...

Cheers!


I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a
ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with
the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on
its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the
backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed
against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a
matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the
grid?

You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats
the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on
the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a
soldering iron? Heat travels.

Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that
it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not
the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket.
Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.


You at least want to solder all the balls at the same time.


Hence why I said a soldering iron tip that matches the grid you want to
solder but assumes you can get heat flow through feedthroughs in the PCB
(but that'll make the PCB more expensive so this probably won't happen).

I'm not sure a cheap soldering iron (with an array of different tips,
like one for BGA wiper tips) is going to work well. It won't have the
temperature regulation of a professional soldering station where you can
dial in the target temperature and it maintains it during thermal load.

I've seen machines that runs the PCB through a hot tin bath (or "wave"
that flows over a roller to create a reverse trough). The balls get
melted in a row, not the entire grid at once, as the PCB rolls over the
wave of solder. You need to preheat the PCB and chips before hitting
the solder wave; else, the uneven heating can result in "popcorning" of
the chips (their tops pop off). Obviously extremely few home users are
going to get a wave soldering machine. The point I'm making is not all
of the balls have to melted all at once (but they should be preheated
all at once).

There is a magic alignment effect, where the wetted contacts
tend to "pull" the chip into alignment, such that the chip
rotates to the grid of contacts underneath. You want the
solder to fill the pads properly, which is going to
happen if all the balls melt at the same time
and the chip settles into place.


But if the chip slides into a carrier to force alignment, something like
a modified PLCC socket but made for alignment purposes instead of
providing for contacts:

http://www.hermann-uwe.de/files/imag...et.preview.jpg

then alignment doesn't rely on wet solder flow pulling the chip in
place. Yes, this is a socket but that doesn't preclude designing a new
socket (which would be much thinner than this) and whose only function
is to force alignment of a unsoldered BGA chip along with a temp clip to
apply downward pressure (until after soldering is complete then remove
the clip and attach the HSF probably using PCB mountings).

I'm saying something could be figured out to provide alignment and
pressure so a home user with decent soldering skills could install a BGA
chip on a prepped grid on a PCB. That doesn't mean it will happen since
manufacturers are trying to save on tenths of a cent so adding such an
alignment and soldering helper device probably won't happen (unless it
comes as an extra you buy separately to use with the BGA chip but then
the mobo would have to be designed to allow the space for it). There
are a lot of HSFs that are designed for what's there rather than the
design of the mobo planning for them.

If you were a home user, and desperate for adventure, you could try a
toaster oven. That's the closest thing to IR reflow you can arrange
for real cheap.


The closest I've seen to multiple contact soldering and for cheap is
using a pancake griddle on which to lay the prepped PCB with BGA chip
atop. Obviously the pancake griddle method is applying heat on the
opposite side of the PCB than where the BGA chip gets soldered, so
off-side BGA [de]soldering is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU

This next guy uses a pancake griddle but elevates the PCB off of it.
That's because this next guy is reflowing the solder rather than
replacing the chip. He uses the griddle to up the temperature but a
heat gun to elevate to the melting temperatu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coMtQIvlN6E
(looks like the guy is in a cramped dorm, ignore the background "noise")

Here's another guy using a griddle to preheat, foil tape for a heat
guard, and a heat gun to remove the BGA chip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUw7QE_e2c8

So pancake griddle, soldering iron with grid tip, or heat gun are all
methods to melt the solder balls. Because these methods may not keep
the chip always aligned because they may liquify the solder balls
unevenly. That is why I thought of some carrier or holder in which the
chip sits and perhaps a spring for a little downward pressure would
ensure alignment. A CPU as a BGA chip is going to have a *lot* of
contacts versus the smaller BGA chips you encounter. I'm assuming a CPU
is going to be a much larger BGA chip with a lot more pins thus with
more mass and more susceptible to sliding around if the PCB is unlevel.
The "carrier" could be something really simple, like just 8 posts, 2 to
snug in each corner or the chip, that either come in the mobo or can be
inserted and removed in mobo holes when needed. I figure something to
help alignment rather than rely on the wetting pull might reduce the
number of bogus "faulty" returns to mobo vendors or botched jobs.

Somehow I suspect mobo vendors aren't going to allow any soldering and
doing such will void any warranty - but then how often do users change
their CPUs? By the time the user wants to upgrade or replace a faulty
CPU is probably after the mobo warranty has expired.

Some people used the toaster oven method, to fix Nvidia GPU solder
joints. But I would still put this idea in the "repugnant" category.
You have absolutely no control of the temperature profile that way,
and the toaster oven is going to be heating all sorts of stuff you
don't want heated (think "burned plastic").


That's why even with the pancake griddle method I would think you would
want to deflect heat away from the parts you are not soldering. In a
couple videos, I see them using foil tape to deflect heat. Another idea
would be to use a metal block on the griddle along with some heatsink
paste to get the griddle's heat to only apply to the underside of the
PCB where you are reflowing the solder under the BGA chip.

(Voids caused by excessive moisture level on the solder balls.)


I think the moisture problem is caused by using water-based rosin. I
haven't looked into this source of soldering defect. I don't know if
the use of directed heated air (e.g., heat gun) eliminates the moisture
issue. From what little that I read, the moisture problem is not due to
ambient moisture in the air but of moisture *inside* the BGA package
getting baked out. I'm not sure why a chip maker would permit an
atmosphere inside their chip that contained moisture. Seems a defect in
or a poor process during manufacturer, and the maker is that slack in
building the chip then how much better quality would be the rest of the
chip.

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www...4-databook.pdf
Section 14.7: Moisture Sensitivity

It looks to be a manufacturing problem, not actually a soldering
problem. It isn't ambient/outside moisture causing the problem (so it
isn't a problem of how you perform the soldering). It's a problem with
moisture *inside* the chip that expands and pops off the top of the
chip. Whether soldering, applying heated air, or for whatever reason
the chip gets exposed to high temperature heat, a moist chip can pop.
You could, for example, be using a heat gun on some other component but
heat up the bad one to pop its lid. To prevent popcorning, it appears
the user of the chip (home users or fab plants) are expected to leave
the chip inside the dessicant bag until just prior to use. If the
problem isn't of poor manufacture of having excessive moisture inside
the chip then it appears the popcorning problem is related to poor
handling by the consumer/user of the chip.

http://glenbrook.webworksnow3.com/bl...3/bga_fig4.gif

With care, I'm told you can get defectivity down to around
1 ball in 100,000. That means, if you solder down a hundred
chips each having 1000 balls underneath, one of the chips
will have a single bad solder joint. It would take a little
effort and expense though, to get that good at it. The
results of home users doing such soldering, isn't going to be
that good.


The typical DIY'er doesn't have $200+ temperature-controlled soldering
stations or even the soldering skills for just splicing wires together.
I don't remember how many times I've helped with replumbing a house to
watch someone apply heat at the joint and think that's where they heat
up the solder instead of letting it flow towards the heat by applying to
torch past the joint overlap. There's a reason why DIY hardware didn't
involve soldering. Hell, I remember working on the test floor where we
tested the mainframes and watching some so-called engineers raping a PCB
trying unsolder a part and then gobbing on the solder to replace it. I
still have memories of one guy that would poke the tip of a soldering
iron into a blivet and circle the iron in a conical pattern trying to
heat up the solder inside to then suck it out all the while hearing the
squeaking of the tip against the dry blivet. I've seen some folks using
an soldering gun instead of a soldering iron so they end up using way
too much heat in too large an area. Soldering seems almost an inate
skill, like whether you can play a piano or just bang your fingers
against the keys.

Probably a better setup is ordering both the mobo and CPU (BGA) together
and having the vendor do the initial soldering for a fee. You get to
choose what you want on the mobo but someone with proper gear and
expertise does the solder work. Then sometime later when you want to
upgrade the CPU, and probably after the mobo warranty has expired, you
can try to remove and replace the BGA chip yourself. You can do it
hoping the PCB is level and that wetting gives you proper alignment but
I would think something to aid alignment would reduce the number of
botched jobs by amateurs, like me.

I think someone already mentioned using a converter card where the BGA
style CPU would get soldered onto a card and the card shoved into a
slot. This is reminscent of the Slot 1/2 CPUs. Of course, it means the
CPU manufacturers would be producing BGA style chips while someone else
was manufacturing the cards and doing the soldering for you so you end
up buying the BGA CPU already on a card. Mobo makers have to follow by
providing CPU slots.

Of course, all of this "what do we do know" conjecture is based on
someone's hypothesis of what Intel /might/ do. The computer industry is
rife with technologies or schemes that dead ended. Remember the
microchannel bus? Was it the EISA hosts where if you lost the floppy
then you might not be able to boot the computer? I was surprised at the
3 years the SECC/SEPP form (Slot 1) for CPUs lasted considering how
often the mobo slot got cracked which resulted in less pressure on the
fingers against the card's pins. Several times I had to use cable ties
looped together across the top of a Slot 1/2 CPU to hold it down because
the mount brackets cracked or broke, or having to scavenge from failed
Slot 1 CPUs to dismantle the shell and replace the fan. How long did
Microsoft's BOB last?

I'm pretty sure if Intel decides to direct its manufacturing to
producing only BGA style CPUs that something else will arise to meet the
challenge of installing and replacing those CPUs outside the mainline of
computer parts makers. Or DIY'ers will have to improve their soldering
skills and perhaps their tools from those that don't want to learn and
practice getting weed out. Look at what happens with cars. Some folks
simply don't want to learn beyond the aspirated engines they grew up
with and/or don't want to buy the tools to keep up with the changes.
Having to solder or reflow BGA parts will become a differentiating
factor in typing the DIY'ers.
  #17  
Old November 29th 12, 05:57 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

"krw" wrote:

...and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It
has to be quite closely regulated.


Hence why the DIY'ers that will do this task are those that have
soldering stations. You know, the ones where you can dial in the
temperature. However, as pointing out in the videos to which I link,
others have been inventive in finding cheaper means of doing the
soldering, reflow, or desoldering.

"Knowing how to solder" has nothing to do with it. This is not a
normal soldering operation.


It is if you have the right tools (or not how to fab your own gerry
rig). Again, the videos show NON-professionals doing the work and they
are not using $300 soldering or desoldering stations, either.

Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.


It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you.


It means they will void the warranty. As I mentioned, the most likely
scenario is that you order the CPU you want with the mobo you want and
the combo gets delivered to you with that setup. A jobber at some point
after the chip manufacturer but before the retail/online vendor does the
work or is contracted out or however the vendor wants to get made the
hardware config that you order. Sometime later you want to replace the
CPU because it went bad, like you overclocked or overvolted it, or you
want a better CPU. Do you really buy a mobo with a CPU and then
immediately discard the CPU to buy a more powerful CPU and put that one
in? No, you buy your hardware list, fab the parts together, and
sometime later decide to upgrade. Users of mobos that have expired
their warranty won't care about what the retailer will sell them since
they already have it, it's out of warranty, and they've decided they
will change the CPU.

I don't see that this will impact the initial or first sale of hardware
when you fab your homebrew host. You're going to build your shopping
list, get the parts, and slap it together. Sometime later you decide to
make changes. In this case, it's not a question of whether a retailer
will sell you a CPU and mobo separately and warrantly their users
soldering expertise. It'll be whether or not non-commercial or
non-volume users can purchase the BGA CPUs to acquire them to sometime
later swap out those CPUs. If you can't buy one BGA CPU at a time, it's
not likely you're going to buy 100 or 1000 of them to change the CPU on
your one home computer. My bet is some volume buyer will resell the
individual units at a markup and make some good money at it. Of course,
they aren't going to include a warranty with it.

  #18  
Old November 29th 12, 06:05 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:57:20 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

"krw" wrote:

...and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It
has to be quite closely regulated.


Hence why the DIY'ers that will do this task are those that have
soldering stations. You know, the ones where you can dial in the
temperature. However, as pointing out in the videos to which I link,
others have been inventive in finding cheaper means of doing the
soldering, reflow, or desoldering.


"Soldering stations" are *NOT* intended for BGA work. boggle You
need at least hot air and preferably a controlled oven for this.

"Knowing how to solder" has nothing to do with it. This is not a
normal soldering operation.


It is if you have the right tools (or not how to fab your own gerry
rig). Again, the videos show NON-professionals doing the work and they
are not using $300 soldering or desoldering stations, either.


Unbelievable.

Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will
need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot.


It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you.


It means they will void the warranty.


No, it means that they will not be in this market at all. The number
of DIYers who can do this is close enough to zero that it's not a
business.

As I mentioned, the most likely
scenario is that you order the CPU you want with the mobo you want and
the combo gets delivered to you with that setup.


No, the most likely scenario is that this business won't exist. If
there is any DIY market, you'll buy the board with the CPU (and
perhaps the memory, too).

A jobber at some point
after the chip manufacturer but before the retail/online vendor does the
work or is contracted out or however the vendor wants to get made the
hardware config that you order. Sometime later you want to replace the
CPU because it went bad, like you overclocked or overvolted it, or you
want a better CPU. Do you really buy a mobo with a CPU and then
immediately discard the CPU to buy a more powerful CPU and put that one
in? No, you buy your hardware list, fab the parts together, and
sometime later decide to upgrade. Users of mobos that have expired
their warranty won't care about what the retailer will sell them since
they already have it, it's out of warranty, and they've decided they
will change the CPU.


No, you buy a new board, too. The choices of CPUs will be very
limited, too.

I don't see that this will impact the initial or first sale of hardware
when you fab your homebrew host. You're going to build your shopping
list, get the parts, and slap it together. Sometime later you decide to
make changes. In this case, it's not a question of whether a retailer
will sell you a CPU and mobo separately and warrantly their users
soldering expertise. It'll be whether or not non-commercial or
non-volume users can purchase the BGA CPUs to acquire them to sometime
later swap out those CPUs. If you can't buy one BGA CPU at a time, it's
not likely you're going to buy 100 or 1000 of them to change the CPU on
your one home computer. My bet is some volume buyer will resell the
individual units at a markup and make some good money at it. Of course,
they aren't going to include a warranty with it.


You're dreaming.
  #19  
Old November 29th 12, 07:19 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

"krw" wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

"krw" wrote:

...and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It
has to be quite closely regulated.


Hence why the DIY'ers that will do this task are those that have
soldering stations. You know, the ones where you can dial in the
temperature. However, as pointing out in the videos to which I link,
others have been inventive in finding cheaper means of doing the
soldering, reflow, or desoldering.


"Soldering stations" are *NOT* intended for BGA work. boggle You
need at least hot air and preferably a controlled oven for this.


How does having a soldering station preclude your ownership of a heat
gun? How are you going to cleanup the solder left behind after removing
the BGA chip? With a little soldering iron repeatedly trying to wick up
a few solder remnants at a time? Or put a wide tip on the station iron,
lay it across a length of wick, and use the whole length to capture a
lot of solder remnant at a time?

Please don't generalize some $40 soldering station with those costing
hundreds that ARE designed for BGA rework. Sorry if you mistook my
"soldering station" to mean some style that isn't designed for the task.
If I said you need a new tire, I really shouldn't have to specify what
tire fits your car. Besides, that small and simple soldering iron
station with temperature control still suffices for BGA rework, too. If
you watched the videos, you'll see that removing the BGA device doesn't
require the use of the lowly soldering iron station, and neither does
the installation of the BGA chip. Users have found pancake griddles
(with their temperature control) and heat guns sufficient for removal
and installation. Yet that lowly soldering iron-only station does come
in handy when cleaning up all the solder remnant and re-balling the BGA
chip.

It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you.


It means they will void the warranty.


No, it means that they will not be in this market at all. The number
of DIYers who can do this is close enough to zero that it's not a
business.


So you're claiming the DIY'ers are incapable of learning new skills. If
some college dude in a cramped dorm can use a pancake griddle and heat
gun to reflow the solder for a BGA GPU to fix cold solder joints and
another guy can use the same griddle and heat gun to replace a BGA chip,
why can't others? The hardest part of the entire process is the time to
protect the area outside the chip by applying foil tape (as a heat
deflector for the heat gun's airflow), all the solder and rosin cleanup
after removing the BGA chip, and re-balling the BGA chip and none of
that requires super-wizard skills by a DIY'er. Doing the desoldering to
remove and soldering to install are the easy parts. It's a lot like
painting a house: most of the effort and time is spent in preparation
and the actual painting goes quick and easy.

Yes, there are different levels of DIY'ers. Sorry, but I'm not terribly
concerned about the lowest level of them that have troubles figuring out
why an AGP video card won't fit in a PCIe slot or cannot figure out how
to determine the orientation of a non-polarized IDE ribbon cable. Ever
visited the Darwin Awards site to know the premise of its "awards"?
Some folks should never be an DIY'er but that doesn't stop them.

As I mentioned, the most likely
scenario is that you order the CPU you want with the mobo you want and
the combo gets delivered to you with that setup.


No, the most likely scenario is that this business won't exist. If
there is any DIY market, you'll buy the board with the CPU (and
perhaps the memory, too).


Isn't that what I said? The initial purchase when you spec out your
build would be to decide on a mobo+CPU combo and that's what gets
delivered to you with the CPU already soldered on. Hell, you can do
that now with ZIF-socketed CPUs by buying a combo the vendor already
came up with (and usually includes a bundling discount): they
pre-install the CPU into the ZIF socket and may even attach the HSF
(although I still prefer to do my own so to including lapping of the CPU
metal plate and the heatsink and making sure the proper dose of good
thermal paste gets used). So, yes, the initial buy will have the CPU
already soldered to the mobo.

So how does that stop DIY'ers from upgrading their CPUs if they don't
care about warranties or after the warranty has expired? Only if they
cannot get the BGA CPU chips will stop them. Sorry, but I don't think
the market for BGA CPUs is unsustainable so I believe there will be a
market for them - but at a price premium since such DIY'ers are not
volume buyers - and there will be warranty (which means the DIY'er has
no recourse if they get a bad chip).

A jobber at some point
after the chip manufacturer but before the retail/online vendor does the
work or is contracted out or however the vendor wants to get made the
hardware config that you order. Sometime later you want to replace the
CPU because it went bad, like you overclocked or overvolted it, or you
want a better CPU. Do you really buy a mobo with a CPU and then
immediately discard the CPU to buy a more powerful CPU and put that one
in? No, you buy your hardware list, fab the parts together, and
sometime later decide to upgrade. Users of mobos that have expired
their warranty won't care about what the retailer will sell them since
they already have it, it's out of warranty, and they've decided they
will change the CPU.


No, you buy a new board, too. The choices of CPUs will be very
limited, too.


Now you're guessing even worse than the hypothesis claimed in the
article that started this whole discussion. You don't know and neither
do I as to what will happen regarding availability of single-unit
purchases of BGA CPUs. I suspicion there will be availability and
disagree with you. You suspicion that there will not be availability
and disagree with me. So, so far, we've agreed to disagree.

I don't see that this will impact the initial or first sale of hardware
when you fab your homebrew host. You're going to build your shopping
list, get the parts, and slap it together. Sometime later you decide to
make changes. In this case, it's not a question of whether a retailer
will sell you a CPU and mobo separately and warrantly their users
soldering expertise. It'll be whether or not non-commercial or
non-volume users can purchase the BGA CPUs to acquire them to sometime
later swap out those CPUs. If you can't buy one BGA CPU at a time, it's
not likely you're going to buy 100 or 1000 of them to change the CPU on
your one home computer. My bet is some volume buyer will resell the
individual units at a markup and make some good money at it. Of course,
they aren't going to include a warranty with it.


You're dreaming.


Oh, you're one of those "odd" purchasers that build by buying parts that
you will immediately discard to then buy some other part to replace
those you already purchased. So how do you buy mobos and CPUs now? Do
you really buy a mobo one month and then months later buy a CPU for it?
Do you really buy both a mobo and CPU (separately or as a combo) but
upon delivery discard the CPU and go buy another CPU? Or do you buy the
mobo and CPU and *use* that hardware in your build?

I didn't say there would be as great a selection of combinations of
mobos and CPUs. The selection will probably be less as vendors will
offer only certain combinations. This in itself will eliminate
consumers getting the wrong parts and reduce returns to the vendors.
You will pick from what BGA CPU and mobo combos the vendors do provide
just like you do now with CPU and mobo purchases. If the CPU makers go
to BGA chips and force the mobo makers to follow then the computer
vendors will have to follow, too. So, yes, you CAN make your inital
purchase with a BGA CPU and mobo combo and, no, that doesn't preclude
you from changing the BGA CPU later whether you do it, get a more expert
friend to do it, or pay a shop to do it.

The videos show doing BGA is not rocket science. It doesn't even
require high-tech equipment. It obviously will void any warranty but by
the time you upgrade the warranty is irrelevant. If, as you claim, the
consumer is going to buy a new BGA CPU and mobo combo as the upgrade or
replacement, they're going to still have that old BGA CPU and mobo
hanging around so why not experiment since you have nothing to lose.
If, as I claim, DIY'ers won't care about warranties, especially after
they've expired by the time they choose to upgrade, and they'll be using
low-tech gear to desolder, cleanup, and solder the BGA stuff.

So it doesn't seem your argument really hinges on whether DIY'ers can
learn how to handle BGA chips (since I've already shown that's not true
by reference to videos). Instead it really hinges on availability of
the BGA CPUs for single-unit purchases (i.e., where a user can buy just
one). From what I've seen at eBay, even when something is normally
available only through volume purchases, someone goes ahead anyway to
buy a 1000 for their own use of one and then sells off the rest either
individually or in lot sales.
  #20  
Old November 29th 12, 07:26 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default The end of the road for the DIY PC?

VanguardLH wrote:

The poster "Motor T" above, has already debunked this idea
for desktops at least. The plan is for laptops. So we don't
have to worry about kludges quite yet.

Paul

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone playing games with a high-end video card on a low-end Athlon 64 X2 system? Ant AMD x86-64 Processors 2 February 1st 08 11:58 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2022 HardwareBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.