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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:38:05 +0000, Yousuf Khan wrote:
JK wrote: Franklin wrote: Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700 MHz Duron system and now want something new. I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio editing. I just surf and do some small office activities. An Athlon XP processor would be your best value then. Wha-aat!?!!!? But why would anybody want to buy a 32-bit CPU now? Now that's a simple one to answer. He can quadrupple his speed with a simple $50 cpu upgrade. They're cheap and most people don't need anything faster. I sure don't. I just want it.:-) My old XP ssytem works just about as well as my new A64 system for what I do most of the time. -- Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB) http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm |
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:41:02 +0100, Franklin
wrote: Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700 MHz Duron system and now want something new. I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio editing. I just surf and do some small office activities. Considering that you were getting by with the Duron 700, and your modest needs, there isn't any good justification for spending a lot more for the Athlon 64. I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will build a new system instead. True, anything you buy will use a lot more power, create a lot more heat. A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? Athlon64 is where the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than for Barton. Actually it's a tough call there, typically the faster CPUs for a given platform maintain their value better than the slower CPUs for the next-faster platform... someday somone will be looking to upgrade their CPU and will want near the fastest their platform can support. As for the rest of the parts, they'll be worth far less than you paid by the time they show up on your doorstep or when you leave the store with them. Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other than that? No, and you'd be buying the less mature platform, potentially more issues to deal with. Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos for athlon64? more expensive memory? Yes, more expensive motherboard and heatsink (if you get a good/quiet heatsink), though memory prices aren't much different unless you buy into the hype that everyone should use high-end, premium priced memory. Any decent name-brand value-grade memory should be fine, will be a loss of a percent or two of performance, but the cost savings could easily more than offset that with a faster CPU or more memory capacity, hard drive, video card, etc. Best bang for the buck for yor needs would be something like: Athlon XP ~ $80 (add a bit for retail Athlon w/heatsink or good 3rd parth 'sink is addt'l $20 somewhere like http://www.svc.com when on sale (like Thermalright SLK-947). nForce2 motherboard ~ $65 Sparkle 300W PSU FSP300-60PN ~ $35 2 x 512MB PC3200 ~ $150 You would have somewhat higher performance with the Athlon 64, but for your present needs you won't benefit enough to notice. As for "future" use, a 2 or more years from now either will again be slow compared to newest CPUs at that time, only buy what you need when you need it. |
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Paul Hopwood wrote:
(Al Dykes) wrote: Buy a machine in the "sweet spot" for price performance today, which might be a midrange Athlon on a NIC/SOund/Video the motherboard machine. I'd agree with that. Look for price/performance rather than latest and greatest. The difference in performance between middle and top of the range will hardly be noticeable in most applications and for the difference in price you could probably afford to throw the PC away in a year and buy another, which will undoubtedly be more powerful than top-of-the-range today. If you just want something for word processing or to surf the 'Web get the cheapest you can find; even todays entry level is more than capable for business applications and Internet use. If you're a bit more demanding then head for somewhere just above mid-range, where the best price performance is typically a couple of options beneath the top level. Spend the money you save on the system on a nice big LCD screen, and good sound. Or save the money you'd spend a horrible big LCD screen, get a good CRT screen and get p*ssed on the spare change. yes - like I did this summer. upgrade from a 750 athlon to a 2500 athlon barton, with 256vidram nvidia 5700, 1 gig ram, dvd-burner/cd-burner, 22 inch Sony refurb CRT.............800 bucks. 200 for the monitor 600 bucks for a midrange computer is cheap. 64-bit will remain irrelvant for another 5 yrs. (or more). The on board memory controller of the athlon64 is nice (20-percent faster than barton on all things). But I suggest you buy cheap Barton now - then in three yrs you can buy cheap again, only that cheap will be a 3.5 Ghz Athlon64 with 4 gigs ram and 1-gig vid ram, blueray-burner. -- http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "'No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this?'" - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." - Powell 4/27/04 "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." - Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to do for the country. See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where I'm coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." - Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." - Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." 'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.' - Colin Powell February 26 2001 |
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:41:02 +0100, Franklin
wrote: Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700 MHz Duron system and now want something new. I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio editing. I just surf and do some small office activities. I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will build a new system instead. A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? If you buy a computer you are buying into obsolescence, regardless of what you put in the thing. Athlon64 is where the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than for Barton. The difference at resale time is likely to be rather negligible. Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other than that? It will be faster, though will you notice it? Perhaps a more important question though, is the price difference small enough that you might as well go for the higher-end chip? Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos for athlon64? more expensive memory? More expensive motherboard, yes. Memory shouldn't really be more expensive, in some cases it might actually be cheaper. A Barton 2500+ in an nForce2 board (such as Asus' A7N8X) will use dual-channel memory, ie buy it in pairs. An Athlon64 2800+ (regardless of motherboard) will use single channel memory. Price shouldn't change much though, except maybe if you want 2GB+ or more in the system. Here's a quick breakdown of prices for you from www.newegg.com. There's no particular need for any other component to be different between these two systems, so I'll just list the processor, motherboard and memory. Barton: AthlonXP 2500+ $93 Asus A7N8X $72 2 x 256MB PC3200 $83 ----------- Total $248 Athlon64: Athlon64 2800+ $146 MSI K8N Neo-FSR $107 512MB PC3200 $69 ----------- Total $322 Depending on the exact config of your systems the numbers might be skewed a bit one way or the other, but you're most likely looking at a difference of somewhere around $75. Personally I would say that this $75 is money well spent for pretty much anyone except those on the tightest budget. The extra performance isn't going to blow you away by any means, but it'll be there, and there will probably be some application down the line where you'll appreciate the extra performance of the Athlon64. Add to that the potential to run 64-bit software and operation systems should the need (or desire) arise and the tiny extra added security afforded by the NX-bit in the Athlon64 (helps prevent buffer overflow attacks, a la MS Blaster, Sasser, etc.) and it makes sense to me. On the flip side, if you decide that the extra cost is not worth it for you and opt to stick for a Barton chip, you might want to check out the 2600+. The above mentioned Newegg prices have the AthlonXP 2600+ for $95, or only $2 more than the 2500+. ------------- Tony Hill hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca |
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I say hold out and wait for A64 price drop, and when the new 939 mobo's do
down in price, If you want try a XP-mobile 2500 pair it up with NFS-7 get that baby oced to 2500 MHZ , get dual channel ddr 400 ( you can also use it in you later A64 rig) these chips are known to par with P4 3.2 EE at that config and you can use the extra money for a better vid card or larger hardrive (maybe SATA Raptor@ 10000k RPM ) :P just my 2 cents. "gaffo" wrote in message m... Paul Hopwood wrote: (Al Dykes) wrote: Buy a machine in the "sweet spot" for price performance today, which might be a midrange Athlon on a NIC/SOund/Video the motherboard machine. I'd agree with that. Look for price/performance rather than latest and greatest. The difference in performance between middle and top of the range will hardly be noticeable in most applications and for the difference in price you could probably afford to throw the PC away in a year and buy another, which will undoubtedly be more powerful than top-of-the-range today. If you just want something for word processing or to surf the 'Web get the cheapest you can find; even todays entry level is more than capable for business applications and Internet use. If you're a bit more demanding then head for somewhere just above mid-range, where the best price performance is typically a couple of options beneath the top level. Spend the money you save on the system on a nice big LCD screen, and good sound. Or save the money you'd spend a horrible big LCD screen, get a good CRT screen and get p*ssed on the spare change. yes - like I did this summer. upgrade from a 750 athlon to a 2500 athlon barton, with 256vidram nvidia 5700, 1 gig ram, dvd-burner/cd-burner, 22 inch Sony refurb CRT.............800 bucks. 200 for the monitor 600 bucks for a midrange computer is cheap. 64-bit will remain irrelvant for another 5 yrs. (or more). The on board memory controller of the athlon64 is nice (20-percent faster than barton on all things). But I suggest you buy cheap Barton now - then in three yrs you can buy cheap again, only that cheap will be a 3.5 Ghz Athlon64 with 4 gigs ram and 1-gig vid ram, blueray-burner. -- http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "'No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this?'" - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." - Powell 4/27/04 "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." - Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to do for the country. See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where I'm coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." - Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." - Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." 'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.' - Colin Powell February 26 2001 |
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gaffo wrote:
snip all Dude, your sig is a bummer, man. As much as I agree with your political views and frustrations entirely, your sig as it stands simply has no place on Usenet...it's very unpolite (meaning WAY too large). Also, at least in this NG (.chips) your political statements are falling more or less on deaf ears as this group is populated with a large number of SWM (stupid white men) and even a few VSWM (V = very). Get my drift? J. |
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"Franklin" wrote in message
... Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700 MHz Duron system and now want something new. I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio editing. I just surf and do some small office activities. I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will build a new system instead. A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? Athlon64 is where the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than for Barton. Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other than that? Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos for athlon64? more expensive memory? Well, if you've been happy with a Duron 700 up until fairly recently I suspect a new machine based on an Athlon 3000, for example, will do you pretty well. You will probably pay top money just now for Athlon 64 as it's the latest trendy thing, and the sweet spot for price/performance is likely a step or two back from the leading edge of technology. When you buy any computer you are buying into obsolescence, to some extent. AMD already have the next CPU after Athlon 64 on the drawing board I expect, as do Intel have the P5 or whatever in the design stage. My feeling is to buy for what you need now, trying to keep an eye out for long-term life but not be a slave to it. Upgradeability is limited by new developments. Look at AGP, you might have thought, a year ago that you'd buy, for example, a Radeon 9500 video card and upgrade to a Radeon xxxx in two years time perhaps. But, of course, AGP is now being replaced by PCI Express, so you can't do it. Similarly with processors, chances are you'd need a new motherboard anyway to make use of new generations of CPU. |
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John Fryatt wrote: "Franklin" wrote in message ... Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700 MHz Duron system and now want something new. I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio editing. I just surf and do some small office activities. I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will build a new system instead. A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? Athlon64 is where the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than for Barton. Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other than that? Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos for athlon64? more expensive memory? Well, if you've been happy with a Duron 700 up until fairly recently I suspect a new machine based on an Athlon 3000, for example, will do you pretty well. You will probably pay top money just now for Athlon 64 Top money? An Athl 64 3000+ is only around $160, which is around the price of a Pentium 4 2.8 ghz, and only around $50 more than an Athlon XP3200+. The motherboard for an Athlon 64 is around $25 more than a comparable one for an Athlon XP. So an Athlon 64 doesn't have to be very expensive. as it's the latest trendy thing, and the sweet spot for price/performance is likely a step or two back from the leading edge of technology. When you buy any computer you are buying into obsolescence, to some extent. AMD already have the next CPU after Athlon 64 on the drawing board I expect, as do Intel have the P5 or whatever in the design stage. It will be nice to buy a pc with a dual core processor a few years from now. They might be out in a year, but will probably be quite expensive when first introduced. My feeling is to buy for what you need now, trying to keep an eye out for long-term life but not be a slave to it. Upgradeability is limited by new developments. Look at AGP, you might have thought, a year ago that you'd buy, for example, a Radeon 9500 video card and upgrade to a Radeon xxxx in two years time perhaps. But, of course, AGP is now being replaced by PCI Express, so you can't do it. He is not a gamer. AGP will be fine for him. The benefits of PCI Express will be in the future for very expensive video cards. Similarly with processors, chances are you'd need a new motherboard anyway to make use of new generations of CPU. |
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jack wrote:
gaffo wrote: snip all Dude, your sig is a bummer, man. As much as I agree with your political views and frustrations entirely, your sig as it stands simply has no place on Usenet...it's very unpolite (meaning WAY too large). Also, at least in this NG (.chips) your political statements are falling more or less on deaf ears as this group is populated with a large number of SWM (stupid white men) and even a few VSWM (V = very). Get my drift? J. I understand. Tony Hill said same. Since you seem to be in agreement in my political views - then you may understand that these are Dark Times - not just for some of us but for the every existance of Liberty and America as we know it. I see Germany 1933, and as such I have a compulsion as an American Citizen and Patriot to speak out in any and all ways. A duty if you will. Feel free to *plonk* me it my sign offends. After Nov2 it won't matter - the sig will go then - regardless of if Liberty dies that day or lives. That sig started small two yrs ago and with each lie it grow like Pinocios nose. Now it is an obscenely obese sig. Sorry, if there were less lying from the WH and that Regime, the sig would be alot smaller......... peace be with you. -- http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "'No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this?'" - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." - Powell 4/27/04 "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." - Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to do for the country. See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where I'm coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." - Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." - Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." 'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.' - Colin Powell February 26 2001 |
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