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What wears out in an HDD. Hybrid sleep
For a friend with Win7.
IIRC in Vista and 7, the default for a hard drive turning off was never. Never? Even for people who leave their computer on 24/7? Doesn't it extend the life of the harddrive to turn it off when not in use? Or is it only the tone arm that breaks and the bearings the platter rides on never break??? What wears out in an HDD? When I was visiting him, I tried to set up his power options for him but at the time I'd never heard of Hybrid Sleep. I only had 30 minutes so I went home instead! Wikip says "Sleep mode and hibernation can be combined: The contents of RAM are copied to the non-volatile storage and the computer enters sleep mode. This approach combines the benefits of sleep mode and hibernation: " But what I read elsehwere was that the *data* areas of RAM were copied to the HDD and it didnt' say how it knew where the data was kept. My aunt Tillie would hide data all over the house, in the cookie jar, the sofa cushions, etc. How do I know Hybrid Sleep finds all the data if it it only tries to copy data?? If one were to use plain old sleep on some computer, what data could be lost in a power failure? Is it only the most recent changes to a file one is working on in a file composition window, like an email? Or are there hidden non-easily recreatable files that also need to be saved? For example, if I change preferences and settings in most programs, they are saved during full Hibernate or full Shutdown, but not at all in simple sleep. Are they saved in hybrid sleep? Also, full shutdown and full Hibernate obviate the need to run chkdsk in case of a power failure. If there is a power failure during hybrid sleep, woudl chkdsk run on restart? (Lets assume the user is away from his desk so long that the UPS runs out of steam.) Thanks a lot |
#2
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What wears out in an HDD. Hybrid sleep
Micky wrote:
For a friend with Win7. IIRC in Vista and 7, the default for a hard drive turning off was never. Never? Even for people who leave their computer on 24/7? Doesn't it extend the life of the harddrive to turn it off when not in use? Or is it only the tone arm that breaks and the bearings the platter rides on never break??? What wears out in an HDD? When I was visiting him, I tried to set up his power options for him but at the time I'd never heard of Hybrid Sleep. I only had 30 minutes so I went home instead! Wikip says "Sleep mode and hibernation can be combined: The contents of RAM are copied to the non-volatile storage and the computer enters sleep mode. This approach combines the benefits of sleep mode and hibernation: " But what I read elsehwere was that the *data* areas of RAM were copied to the HDD and it didnt' say how it knew where the data was kept. My aunt Tillie would hide data all over the house, in the cookie jar, the sofa cushions, etc. How do I know Hybrid Sleep finds all the data if it it only tries to copy data?? If one were to use plain old sleep on some computer, what data could be lost in a power failure? Is it only the most recent changes to a file one is working on in a file composition window, like an email? Or are there hidden non-easily recreatable files that also need to be saved? For example, if I change preferences and settings in most programs, they are saved during full Hibernate or full Shutdown, but not at all in simple sleep. Are they saved in hybrid sleep? Also, full shutdown and full Hibernate obviate the need to run chkdsk in case of a power failure. If there is a power failure during hybrid sleep, woudl chkdsk run on restart? (Lets assume the user is away from his desk so long that the UPS runs out of steam.) Thanks a lot S3 Sleep - the session remains stored in RAM - open file changes could be lost on power fail - I don't know if the partition will be marked "dirty" on a power fail or not. S4 Hibernate - the session is stored on disk - the next boot, reloads RAM contents from disk - unless the hiberfile was corrupted somehow, it should be relatively bulletproof Hybrid sleep - the session remains stored in RAM - a duplicate copy is kept on disk (hiberfile) - on restart, if RAM preserved the session, the session continues very quickly from where it left off - on a power fail, the RAM content is lost, but on restart, the hiberfile is used to re-load the RAM. Your session is preserved and so on. Hybrid sleep was intended to give you the advantages of both. With the price being, that shutdown will be a bit slower. With regard to RAM contents: 1) You make a copy of RAM using physical addresses. You put the stuff back, where you got it from. Presumably the page tables (which map virtual to physical addresses) are also recorded. Nothing gets lost. 2) The OS keeps track of memory allocation. So it should have a good idea of "used" areas and "unused" areas. It can save time by not recording unused areas. (My RAMDisk gets lost, if I hibernate... That's for a RAMDisk that uses PAE space outside the licensed region. The OS pretends that area doesn't exist.) 3) There is no particular reason, that any RAM used as a system read file cache, would need to be preserved. That stuff could be flushed. The system file cache should really start over again, on the next startup. 4) In some cases, unused areas of RAM contain all-zeros, put there when something initialized the memory. I don't really know whether the BIOS does the first initialization, or the OS is doing it. 5) The hiberfile can use a lightweight compression scheme. This allows the hiberfile to be 48GB, on a 64GB RAM machine. So on modern OSes, the hiberfile is smaller than RAM, with the assumption of the designers being, the data will be "compressible enough" to always fit. By preparing a certain pathological case for the computer, I can violate that assumption, and prevent hibernation from working right. Normal usage should not do that. 6) You can tell from the relatively short shutdown cycle during hibernation, that not much is being written out. If you aren't using a lot of the RAM, the shutdown can be done in seconds. If you do the math (total_RAM divided by 100MB/sec for the disk), it should take forever to store the contents of all of your computer RAM. So obviously the scheme is pretty economical, only recording "chunks" that are needed, and ignoring the rest. Only S3 Sleep would need a CHKDSK. And really, the only things that should get lost, is file changes since the last session. The NTFS journal should make cleanup a snap to do. Paul |
#3
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What wears out in an HDD. Hybrid sleep
On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 03:32:39 -0500, Paul wrote:
Micky wrote: For a friend with Win7. IIRC in Vista and 7, the default for a hard drive turning off was never. Never? Even for people who leave their computer on 24/7? Doesn't it extend the life of the harddrive to turn it off when not in use? Or is it only the tone arm that breaks and the bearings the platter rides on never break??? What wears out in an HDD? When I was visiting him, I tried to set up his power options for him but at the time I'd never heard of Hybrid Sleep. I only had 30 minutes so I went home instead! Wikip says "Sleep mode and hibernation can be combined: The contents of RAM are copied to the non-volatile storage and the computer enters sleep mode. This approach combines the benefits of sleep mode and hibernation: " But what I read elsehwere was that the *data* areas of RAM were copied to the HDD and it didnt' say how it knew where the data was kept. My aunt Tillie would hide data all over the house, in the cookie jar, the sofa cushions, etc. How do I know Hybrid Sleep finds all the data if it it only tries to copy data?? If one were to use plain old sleep on some computer, what data could be lost in a power failure? Is it only the most recent changes to a file one is working on in a file composition window, like an email? Or are there hidden non-easily recreatable files that also need to be saved? For example, if I change preferences and settings in most programs, they are saved during full Hibernate or full Shutdown, but not at all in simple sleep. Are they saved in hybrid sleep? Also, full shutdown and full Hibernate obviate the need to run chkdsk in case of a power failure. If there is a power failure during hybrid sleep, woudl chkdsk run on restart? (Lets assume the user is away from his desk so long that the UPS runs out of steam.) Thanks a lot S3 Sleep - the session remains stored in RAM - open file changes could be lost on power fail - I don't know if the partition will be marked "dirty" on a power fail or not. S4 Hibernate - the session is stored on disk - the next boot, reloads RAM contents from disk - unless the hiberfile was corrupted somehow, it should be relatively bulletproof Hybrid sleep - the session remains stored in RAM - a duplicate copy is kept on disk (hiberfile) - on restart, if RAM preserved the session, the session continues very quickly from where it left off - on a power fail, the RAM content is lost, but on restart, the hiberfile is used to re-load the RAM. Your session is preserved and so on. Hybrid sleep was intended to give you the advantages of both. With the price being, that shutdown will be a bit slower. Well, lately I've just been walking away from the computer and letting it do what it does when the time runs out, so it doesn't matter if shutdown is slower. I'm not there. With regard to RAM contents: 1) You make a copy of RAM using physical addresses. You put the stuff back, where you got it from. Presumably the page tables (which map virtual to physical addresses) are also recorded. Nothing gets lost. 2) The OS keeps track of memory allocation. So it should have a good idea of "used" areas and "unused" areas. I'll grant you that unused areas don't need to be backed up. It can save time by not recording unused areas. (My RAMDisk gets lost, if I hibernate... That's for a RAMDisk that uses PAE space outside the licensed region. The OS pretends that area doesn't exist.) 3) There is no particular reason, that any RAM used as a system read file cache, would need to be preserved. I'll grant that. That stuff could be flushed. The system file cache should really start over again, on the next startup. 4) In some cases, unused areas of RAM contain all-zeros, put there when something initialized the memory. I don't really know whether the BIOS does the first initialization, or the OS is doing it. I'll grant that if it's all zeroes, it probalby doesn't have to be backed up. 5) The hiberfile can use a lightweight compression scheme. This allows the hiberfile to be 48GB, on a 64GB RAM machine. So on modern OSes, the hiberfile is smaller than RAM, with the assumption of the designers being, the data will be "compressible enough" to always fit. By preparing a certain pathological case for the computer, I can violate that assumption, and prevent hibernation from working right. Normal usage should not do that. 6) You can tell from the relatively short shutdown cycle during hibernation, that not much is being written out. Aha! Just what I was worried about! If you aren't using a lot of the RAM, the shutdown can be done in seconds. If you do the math (total_RAM divided by 100MB/sec for the disk), it should take forever to Well, when I do actual hibernate, I didn't time it but I'd say it took my 240GHz cpu 1 to 2 minutes to do 3 gigs. (Does the cpu matter? I don't know how new or how fast the HDDs were.) But anyhow, 1 to 2 minutes. store the contents of all of your computer RAM. So obviously the scheme is pretty economical, only recording "chunks" that are needed, and ignoring the rest. I figure unless they copy everything, they can't count on getting all the data. Has anyone complained? I googled hybrid sleep review but i got a bunch of hits for mattresses. So I added -mattress. Then I got a bunch of hits for sleep labs and sleep studies, so I added -sleep but that didn't work! Then I added windows but it said to keep the windows open if you want a good night's sleep. OK, JK, that worked. But all I find for reviews are discussions, not complaints. So I changed review to bugs but still no real complaints. Have you heard any? Only S3 Sleep would need a CHKDSK. And really, the only things that should get lost, is file changes since the last session. The NTFS journal should make cleanup a snap to do. Okay. One new question. Say I have my email program set to send an email at noon today, and now it's 5 in the morning and I'm going to sleep and the computer will go to sleep in 20 minutes. How can I keep it awake until noon so it can send the email? I could use the Scheduler, but the truth is I have trouble setting up the Scheduler. (I've made it work, but since then I've failed, but please don't try to help me with this because I have no use for it now. Just say if it's the best idea or not to send the email at noon.) I could leave streaming audio or video playing, with the sound output turned off, but even if a bad internet connection or something doesn't stop that, I have the feeling that the computer can sleep and still play streaming audio. True?? I could go into power options and change the very setting that makes it sleep, but I"m trying to find some one-shot thing that's simpler and wouldn't require unsetting later. Paul |
#4
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What wears out in an HDD. Hybrid sleep
Micky wrote:
Okay. One new question. Say I have my email program set to send an email at noon today, and now it's 5 in the morning and I'm going to sleep and the computer will go to sleep in 20 minutes. How can I keep it awake until noon so it can send the email? I could use the Scheduler, but the truth is I have trouble setting up the Scheduler. (I've made it work, but since then I've failed, but please don't try to help me with this because I have no use for it now. Just say if it's the best idea or not to send the email at noon.) I could leave streaming audio or video playing, with the sound output turned off, but even if a bad internet connection or something doesn't stop that, I have the feeling that the computer can sleep and still play streaming audio. True?? I could go into power options and change the very setting that makes it sleep, but I"m trying to find some one-shot thing that's simpler and wouldn't require unsetting later. Paul In the past, one of the problems with the scheduler, was the waking of the computer took time, and if your application was expecting to do something instantly, the computer might not be ready. So you may want to do something that sets a WakeTimer, which wakes the computer five minutes before the actual event you expect to service, and then set the Sleep timer to ten minutes, so there is slack on either side of the desired time. If the keyboard/mouse are inactive, then maybe the Sleep policy cuts in, and puts the machine back to sleep. If a program contains its own notion of scheduling internally, it should create its own Scheduler entries to wake itself and perform the function correctly. Maybe Media Center would do something like that, wake the machine when it is time to record a program. And the user generally sets the time, so the recording action starts about five minutes before the program is about to begin, so nothing is lost. With the Windows OS, the more modern the OS, the more of a PITA it is to use the Scheduler. Now they have some ugly piece of work "schtasks.exe" or similar, with a huge set of command line options. And while I think options are nice, I don't really want to spend half the day crafting just the right command invocation for it. In WinXP, you could use "at". at 15:03 "C:\Program Files\Media Center\mediacenter.exe" --someoption That syntax makes it easy to set up, the user can concentrate on the "junk for the payload". But if the program was clever, it would work the WakeTimers itself, so you didn't have to do that sort of gruntwork. Generally, for a scheduled task, I recommend writing a batch file (.bat). As you can embed a bit more clever stuff in the script, to make sure things work right. For example sleep 300 "C:\Program Files\Media Center\mediacenter.exe" --someoption That would allow you to schedule something, it wakes the computer, the script waits five minutes, then it executes the command on the (now fully awake and ready to go) computer. I don't do a lot of stuff with the Scheduler, so I don't know all the tips and tricks. This is just a bit of stuff from playing around one day. Paul |
#5
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What wears out in an HDD. Hybrid sleep
On 1/4/2016 2:05 AM, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 03:32:39 -0500, Paul wrote: Micky wrote: For a friend with Win7. IIRC in Vista and 7, the default for a hard drive turning off was never. Never? Even for people who leave their computer on 24/7? Doesn't it extend the life of the harddrive to turn it off when not in use? Or is it only the tone arm that breaks and the bearings the platter rides on never break??? What wears out in an HDD? When I was visiting him, I tried to set up his power options for him but at the time I'd never heard of Hybrid Sleep. I only had 30 minutes so I went home instead! Wikip says "Sleep mode and hibernation can be combined: The contents of RAM are copied to the non-volatile storage and the computer enters sleep mode. This approach combines the benefits of sleep mode and hibernation: " But what I read elsehwere was that the *data* areas of RAM were copied to the HDD and it didnt' say how it knew where the data was kept. My aunt Tillie would hide data all over the house, in the cookie jar, the sofa cushions, etc. How do I know Hybrid Sleep finds all the data if it it only tries to copy data?? If one were to use plain old sleep on some computer, what data could be lost in a power failure? Is it only the most recent changes to a file one is working on in a file composition window, like an email? Or are there hidden non-easily recreatable files that also need to be saved? For example, if I change preferences and settings in most programs, they are saved during full Hibernate or full Shutdown, but not at all in simple sleep. Are they saved in hybrid sleep? Also, full shutdown and full Hibernate obviate the need to run chkdsk in case of a power failure. If there is a power failure during hybrid sleep, woudl chkdsk run on restart? (Lets assume the user is away from his desk so long that the UPS runs out of steam.) Thanks a lot S3 Sleep - the session remains stored in RAM - open file changes could be lost on power fail - I don't know if the partition will be marked "dirty" on a power fail or not. S4 Hibernate - the session is stored on disk - the next boot, reloads RAM contents from disk - unless the hiberfile was corrupted somehow, it should be relatively bulletproof Hybrid sleep - the session remains stored in RAM - a duplicate copy is kept on disk (hiberfile) - on restart, if RAM preserved the session, the session continues very quickly from where it left off - on a power fail, the RAM content is lost, but on restart, the hiberfile is used to re-load the RAM. Your session is preserved and so on. Hybrid sleep was intended to give you the advantages of both. With the price being, that shutdown will be a bit slower. Well, lately I've just been walking away from the computer and letting it do what it does when the time runs out, so it doesn't matter if shutdown is slower. I'm not there. With regard to RAM contents: 1) You make a copy of RAM using physical addresses. You put the stuff back, where you got it from. Presumably the page tables (which map virtual to physical addresses) are also recorded. Nothing gets lost. 2) The OS keeps track of memory allocation. So it should have a good idea of "used" areas and "unused" areas. I'll grant you that unused areas don't need to be backed up. It can save time by not recording unused areas. (My RAMDisk gets lost, if I hibernate... That's for a RAMDisk that uses PAE space outside the licensed region. The OS pretends that area doesn't exist.) 3) There is no particular reason, that any RAM used as a system read file cache, would need to be preserved. I'll grant that. That stuff could be flushed. The system file cache should really start over again, on the next startup. 4) In some cases, unused areas of RAM contain all-zeros, put there when something initialized the memory. I don't really know whether the BIOS does the first initialization, or the OS is doing it. I'll grant that if it's all zeroes, it probalby doesn't have to be backed up. 5) The hiberfile can use a lightweight compression scheme. This allows the hiberfile to be 48GB, on a 64GB RAM machine. So on modern OSes, the hiberfile is smaller than RAM, with the assumption of the designers being, the data will be "compressible enough" to always fit. By preparing a certain pathological case for the computer, I can violate that assumption, and prevent hibernation from working right. Normal usage should not do that. 6) You can tell from the relatively short shutdown cycle during hibernation, that not much is being written out. Aha! Just what I was worried about! If you aren't using a lot of the RAM, the shutdown can be done in seconds. If you do the math (total_RAM divided by 100MB/sec for the disk), it should take forever to Well, when I do actual hibernate, I didn't time it but I'd say it took my 240GHz cpu 1 to 2 minutes to do 3 gigs. (Does the cpu matter? I don't know how new or how fast the HDDs were.) But anyhow, 1 to 2 minutes. store the contents of all of your computer RAM. So obviously the scheme is pretty economical, only recording "chunks" that are needed, and ignoring the rest. I figure unless they copy everything, they can't count on getting all the data. Has anyone complained? I googled hybrid sleep review but i got a bunch of hits for mattresses. So I added -mattress. Then I got a bunch of hits for sleep labs and sleep studies, so I added -sleep but that didn't work! Then I added windows but it said to keep the windows open if you want a good night's sleep. OK, JK, that worked. But all I find for reviews are discussions, not complaints. So I changed review to bugs but still no real complaints. Have you heard any? Only S3 Sleep would need a CHKDSK. And really, the only things that should get lost, is file changes since the last session. The NTFS journal should make cleanup a snap to do. Okay. One new question. Say I have my email program set to send an email at noon today, and now it's 5 in the morning and I'm going to sleep and the computer will go to sleep in 20 minutes. How can I keep it awake until noon so it can send the email? I could use the Scheduler, but the truth is I have trouble setting up the Scheduler. (I've made it work, but since then I've failed, but please don't try to help me with this because I have no use for it now. Just say if it's the best idea or not to send the email at noon.) I could leave streaming audio or video playing, with the sound output turned off, but even if a bad internet connection or something doesn't stop that, I have the feeling that the computer can sleep and still play streaming audio. True?? I could go into power options and change the very setting that makes it sleep, but I"m trying to find some one-shot thing that's simpler and wouldn't require unsetting later. Paul I don't fully understand your priorities. I don't have a lot of experience with wake from sleep, but MediaCenter can and does wake my machine from non-hybred sleep at whatever time I set it to record something. I expect there are apps that can control that timing. A real KLUDGE would be to just program a recording when you want the machine awake, but it may not let you do that without a tuner installed. Depending on the bios, you may be able to wake from OFF. Wake on LAN is an example of that. Sounds like you're willing to keep the machine running until noon. What I do is to have two icons on my desktop. One sets up for sleep. The other sets up for nosleep. When I don't want the system to sleep during a download, I just click the nosleep icon. Sleeper sets the balanced plan which is set up for sleep. C:\Windows\System32\powercfg.exe -setactive 381b4222-f694-41f0-9685-ff5bb260df2e Nosleep sets the high performance plan which is set for no sleeping. C:\Windows\System32\powercfg.exe -setactive 8c5e7fda-e8bf-4a96-9a85-a6e23a8c635c It's been a while since I did this, but I think it's all documented in the powercfg manual. If I just try to wake a sleeping system with a keystroke, it goes back to sleep rather quickly. I have to move the mouse to get the screen to light up and stay awake until the sleep timer expires again. |
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