CPU Temperature

SNIP
As kony pointed out, he's not provided enough information to know what
he's
really got.


Copied from my post on alt.legal.moderated

Xperian Plus, P4 3.06gHz, 1024 RAM,17" TFT screen from Higrade Computers,
(www.higrade.com) This model has now been discontinued looking the site, as
there is only the earlier 15" model available
http://www.higrade.com/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=3261. A picture of my model can
be seen he http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ArticleXperian.html

Repair 1 - From the moment it came out of the box the first time I knew it
was going back as there was piece of grit/dirt between the screen and the
glass front. Then within minutes of first setting it up (registering XP
etc) it started crashing and was guaranteed to crash within moments of
accessing the Media Center function. The motherboard & CPU were supposedly
replaced

Repair 2 - Within 30 minutes of use after it's return, the machine switched
off without warning - no errors, no reboot - just off. This happened
continuously and even while I was in the BIOS looking for a possible answer,
therefore it was not software related.

Repair 3 - after tolerating the continual crashing for a couple of months
(by now I was using my old beige box which I had upgraded to 2.8gHz ,90% of
the time) the TV card failed - no picture, only sound using aerial or
composite inputs. This was replaced. It was during this repair that I
asked them to look at the temperature of the system and was told in the
engineer's report that this was normal. The TV card was replaced.

Current situation* like I stated is that the PC struggles to boot in a
variety of ways - no picture at all, BIOS error, hard drive error, freezing
while Windows loads and if I'm lucky enough to get into Windows, crashing
with minutes. Sometimes the USB mouse will not function, sometimes the
network card is not recognised - I find myself laughing in a perverse way
when a new fault crops up!!

*Now the system is boxed back up as it will not boot at all!

Computers are different in that the owner invariably alters
them from "as supplied", by installing additional software
and hardware and by exposing them to the dangers of viruses,
trojans and other malware from the internet or floppy disk.
Repeated crashing is one symptom of an infected machine and
the hardware could be functioning perfectly.

All of these faults have either occurred without a single additional
software installation or re-occurred when the system has been restored to
factory settings using the backup DVD supplied and also before any internet
access has been attempted (Windows Firewall is enabled in the factory
settings and I have an external router with built-in firewall protection)

On the hardware side, repeated crashing is almost invariably
a temperature problem. Is the computer getting adequate
ventilation? Again, it is hardly the supplier's fault if you
are operating it not in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations. For example, not leaving enough free space
behind the processor box is a common error.

As you will see from the pictures in the link above, the Xperian has a very
small footprint and because of this, my system has around 18 inches
clearance behind it. I'm sure this is more than adequate!

I cannot say, from the details that you have supplied, that
this system was unfit for purpose when supplied to you -
even though it clearly appears to be now. Knowing what
faults have been diagnosed and what replacement parts have
been fitted would help. After three or four call-outs, there
should be little of the original machine remaining, if
hardware has been changed, each time!

Like I said above, this model has been discontinued judging by the website's
lack of info on it. Being cynical, the fact that an earlier lower spec
model is still available whereas references to mine have been wiped from the
site, leads me to suspect that there was an inherent problem with the
specification.

AFAIK, you cannot reject something, as being unfit for
purpose, if it has been your own actions that have made it so!

From what you've read, wouldn't you be inclined to want to cut your losses
and reject it?
End of copied text

Since posting on here and alt.legal.moderated I have sent a recorded
delivery letter to the company, demanding a full refund and am awaiting
their response (and probable refusal!).

I understand where you are all coming from when you talk about re-seating
heatsinks and whatever, but as this system is under a 3yr warranty, my
meddling inside would surely invalidate this (although I have been sorely
tempted!!)

Thanks for all the replies anyway, and I'll see where my refund request gets
me.

From the nature of the problem, and risk of user intervention,
I can understand why you do not wish to "go investigating".
o Yes, PCs are meant to be user upgradeable (re slots)
o Yes, it may also give the company some time wasting room

So this is an embedded PC.
o Yes it may be a small form factor motherboard etc
o Dimensionally, that in itself doesn't preclude reliable cooling

Ok...
o Current Status - this machine is defective & under warranty
---- you are entitled to a machine performing to original spec
---- fit for purpose means the machine is reasonably stable

o History - this machine seems to have had many problems
---- but actual cause could vary from assembly, to h/w, to s/w

The issue returns, however, to that CPU temperature issue:
o Shutting down during BIOS screen is quite severe
o That time to shutdown has decreased is also severe
o Both of which *potentially* could be temp induced
---- so your concern over reported temperature is sound

TIM, the thermal interface material, once baked does deteriorate.
Also, semiconductors themselves undergo thermal degradation.

Q: How many exhaust ports are there on this machine?
---- as in how many fans, how strong an airflow & how hot is it?

Q: Have you noticed any thermal related smells?
---- this wouldn't be particularly obvious for a CPU though

Q: Does the machine before it shutdown slow to a crawl in windows?
---- if the machine began to stutter as it heated, the P4 is halting re heat

An overheating P4 will slow down as it exceeds thermal design spec,
which in this case is some 25-30oC *below* the temp being reported.

If you purchased via Credit Card, and the purchase is over £100, then
you benefit from protected under the Consumer Credit Act. So you also
have that option open to you - put everything in writing, keep copies.

There is also the Trading Standards Office, who would be interested.

That the machine is off the website doesn't necessitate a failed design,
you'd need to see inside the latter machine & your machine to compare.
Small form-factors exist with P4s - do a google for Stealth Computer,
Desktop P4s are routinely found in "no space" notebook applications.
--
Dorothy Bradbury

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:24:23 +0100, "Nel" wrote:

SNIP
As kony pointed out, he's not provided enough information to know what
he's
really got.


Copied from my post on alt.legal.moderated

Xperian Plus, P4 3.06gHz, 1024 RAM,17" TFT screen from Higrade Computers,
(www.higrade.com) This model has now been discontinued looking the site, as
there is only the earlier 15" model available
http://www.higrade.com/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=3261. A picture of my model can
be seen he http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ArticleXperian.html

Repair 1 - From the moment it came out of the box the first time I knew it
was going back as there was piece of grit/dirt between the screen and the
glass front. Then within minutes of first setting it up (registering XP
etc) it started crashing and was guaranteed to crash within moments of
accessing the Media Center function. The motherboard & CPU were supposedly
replaced

Repair 2 - Within 30 minutes of use after it's return, the machine switched
off without warning - no errors, no reboot - just off. This happened
continuously and even while I was in the BIOS looking for a possible answer,
therefore it was not software related.

Repair 3 - after tolerating the continual crashing for a couple of months
(by now I was using my old beige box which I had upgraded to 2.8gHz ,90% of
the time) the TV card failed - no picture, only sound using aerial or
composite inputs. This was replaced. It was during this repair that I
asked them to look at the temperature of the system and was told in the
engineer's report that this was normal. The TV card was replaced.

Current situation* like I stated is that the PC struggles to boot in a
variety of ways - no picture at all, BIOS error, hard drive error, freezing
while Windows loads and if I'm lucky enough to get into Windows, crashing
with minutes. Sometimes the USB mouse will not function, sometimes the
network card is not recognised - I find myself laughing in a perverse way
when a new fault crops up!!

*Now the system is boxed back up as it will not boot at all!

Computers are different in that the owner invariably alters
them from "as supplied", by installing additional software
and hardware and by exposing them to the dangers of viruses,
trojans and other malware from the internet or floppy disk.
Repeated crashing is one symptom of an infected machine and
the hardware could be functioning perfectly.

All of these faults have either occurred without a single additional
software installation or re-occurred when the system has been restored to
factory settings using the backup DVD supplied and also before any internet
access has been attempted (Windows Firewall is enabled in the factory
settings and I have an external router with built-in firewall protection)

On the hardware side, repeated crashing is almost invariably
a temperature problem. Is the computer getting adequate
ventilation? Again, it is hardly the supplier's fault if you
are operating it not in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations. For example, not leaving enough free space
behind the processor box is a common error.

As you will see from the pictures in the link above, the Xperian has a very
small footprint and because of this, my system has around 18 inches
clearance behind it. I'm sure this is more than adequate!

I cannot say, from the details that you have supplied, that
this system was unfit for purpose when supplied to you -
even though it clearly appears to be now. Knowing what
faults have been diagnosed and what replacement parts have
been fitted would help. After three or four call-outs, there
should be little of the original machine remaining, if
hardware has been changed, each time!

Like I said above, this model has been discontinued judging by the website's
lack of info on it. Being cynical, the fact that an earlier lower spec
model is still available whereas references to mine have been wiped from the
site, leads me to suspect that there was an inherent problem with the
specification.

AFAIK, you cannot reject something, as being unfit for
purpose, if it has been your own actions that have made it so!

From what you've read, wouldn't you be inclined to want to cut your losses
and reject it?
End of copied text

Since posting on here and alt.legal.moderated I have sent a recorded
delivery letter to the company, demanding a full refund and am awaiting
their response (and probable refusal!).

I understand where you are all coming from when you talk about re-seating
heatsinks and whatever, but as this system is under a 3yr warranty, my
meddling inside would surely invalidate this (although I have been sorely
tempted!!)

Thanks for all the replies anyway, and I'll see where my refund request gets
me.


Excessive temp does seem to be the problem, but otherwise the
power supply is another potential.

Regardless of the problem, you should neither be trying to fix
this yourself or running system in this state. Thoroughly
document all of this and continue to pursue refund of $$$$.

Only after you have exhausted these avenues or "give up", should
you then proceed to change the CPU heatsink interface, heatsink
itself, change cooling or use an alternate power supply. Given
the form-factor of the unit these things may be beyond the skill
level of most users, the system might be best used with a
downgraded, much slower/cooler/less power hungry CPU in it... or
if bios allowed underclocking and/or undervolting the CPU that
might help too, but again it's not something to try unless you're
"stuck" with the unit and no chance of refund.

Q: How many exhaust ports are there on this machine?
---- as in how many fans, how strong an airflow & how hot is it?
2 - exluding the PSU. The top of the casing, where one of the exhausts was
situated was very hot - considering we're talking about the outer case of
the unit!

Q: Have you noticed any thermal related smells?
---- this wouldn't be particularly obvious for a CPU though
No

Q: Does the machine before it shutdown slow to a crawl in windows?
---- if the machine began to stutter as it heated, the P4 is halting re
heat
Never really noticed that TBH. That's why I asked the question at the
begining of the thread, to see if there was software that could show this.

An overheating P4 will slow down as it exceeds thermal design spec,
which in this case is some 25-30oC *below* the temp being reported.

If you purchased via Credit Card, and the purchase is over £100, then
you benefit from protected under the Consumer Credit Act. So you also
have that option open to you - put everything in writing, keep copies.
I did buy using a credit card, and that will be an option I will take up if
it comes to it. My recorded delivery letter to the manufacurer was signed
for on 12 August. How long should I wait for any response?

There is also the Trading Standards Office, who would be interested.
Another option that is awaiting my response

That the machine is off the website doesn't necessitate a failed design,
I would say it was highly suspicious though, when the current shown model is
inferior in every way, screen size, CPU, Operating System etc. (Mine has XP
Media Center). When have you seen PC specs go backwards?!! :-)

Q: How many exhaust ports are there on this machine?
---- as in how many fans, how strong an airflow & how hot is it?

2 - exluding the PSU. The top of the casing, where one of the exhausts was
situated was very hot - considering we're talking about the outer case of
the unit!

Could be a passive heatsink on the CPU.

Two exhaust ports excluding the PSU is reasonable, unless super-low airflow.
o Twin 25cfm fans are about 23dB(A) - so very quiet
o That 50cfm is enough to cool 250W - *before* airflow restrictions

Therein lies the issue - airflow restrictions matter in small form factor, and
airflow management (ducts) matters even more if passive heatsinks are used.

That the top of the case is "very hot", whilst subjective, suggests 45oC to 60oC.

If you can shine a torch in through that fan port, can you see a heatsink?

Another issue is the design of the fan ports - tightly spaced horizontal slots
can reduce free-airflow to as low as 33%, even PC-like-holes just 45-55%.
The intake may similarly be restrictive/undersized for two exhaust fans.

The typical low-height P4 heatsinks are "1U" referring to rack application:
o 1U with fan - active cooler - are about 40mm high, and tend to be *noisy*
o 1U without fan - passive cooler - are about 32mm high, skived copper
---- skived copper meaning very-thin, very tightly packed copper fins

Skived copper heatsinks require *high* *direct* airflow to work properly.
If you've ever seen a standard Intel retail P4 heatsink it is an aluminium extrusion,
with relatively few thick fins somewhat widely spaced - low airflow resistance.
A skived copper heatsink requires either ducting to an exhaust fan to work,
or typically 40x28mm 11,000-15,300rpm fans to work - noisy 40dB(A)+.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan for quiet Panaflo fans & other items
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy...ry/panaflo.htm (Free Delivery)