A computer components & hardware forum. HardwareBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » HardwareBanter forum » Video Cards » Ati Videocards
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

9500pro crashes HELP!



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 23rd 03, 12:03 PM
DrFranko
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 9500pro crashes HELP!

Try this: http://www.omegacorner.com/ati_help.htm
At bottom of page he points out a problem & fix for Hercules cards
Good luck...
---
Franko

"Archduke" wrote in message
...
Hi NG,

I got a problem with my video-adapter, a Radeon 9500pro by Hercules. I
bought this great piece of hardware approximately 6 months ago and all
ran fine until the beginning of last week: EVERY morning at first boot
a freeze or a complete crash. WinXP reported an error with
ATI2DVAG.dll, but nothing of an infinite loop... When I try a reboot
everything works well, even with 10 or more reboots during the day, but
when I start the PC next morning guess what happens: CRASH again.

My system:
P4 1.6 a @ 2,56, FSB 160
ASUS P4B533-E
ATI / HERCULES Radeon 9500pro non o.ced
768 MB DDR-RAM PC 2700 Samsung (2 sticks)
WinXP home, SP1, Catalyst 3.1 but tried Hercules Catalyst3.4, no
improvement.



  #3  
Old July 2nd 03, 11:17 PM
RickB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have the same problem. Exactly. Just started happening. I updated to
the new drivers. Within a day I started getting crashes regularly. Here is
a cut and paste of the NT Event.

The driver ati2dvag for the display device \Device\Video0 got stuck
in an infinite loop. This usually indicates a problem with the device
itself or with the device driver programming the hardware incorrectly.
Please check with your hardware device vendor for any driver updates.

I tried uninstalling and going back to the previous driver but it didn't
solve the problem. A search on the net shows this problem being reported as
far back as Nov 2002.

I specifically built this system to be stable, as I am a software developer.
And it has never crashed even 1 time in the 4 months that I have been using
it until now. And the thing is - I'm not really doing anything. No games,
no heavy stress on the card. Just typing into notepad or something. I went
to www.ati.com but it says that after 30 days, support is paid only. Well
the hell with them. If hardware device drivers are buggy and they're going
to make me pay to help resolve the problem, I'll throw my 9500Pro into some
test system and buy an NVIDIA card.

Supermicro X5DAE
Dual Xeon 2.4ghz w/hyperthreading
1.5GB ECC RAM
LSI dual channel U320 SCSI controller
Seagate 15K RPM U320 SCSI drive
WinXP Pro, SP1, Catalyst 3.2 (also tried Catalyst 3.5, no difference)

"Archduke" wrote in message
...
Hi NG,

I got a problem with my video-adapter, a Radeon 9500pro by Hercules. I
bought this great piece of hardware approximately 6 months ago and all
ran fine until the beginning of last week: EVERY morning at first boot
a freeze or a complete crash. WinXP reported an error with
ATI2DVAG.dll, but nothing of an infinite loop... When I try a reboot
everything works well, even with 10 or more reboots during the day, but
when I start the PC next morning guess what happens: CRASH again.

My system:
P4 1.6 a @ 2,56, FSB 160
ASUS P4B533-E
ATI / HERCULES Radeon 9500pro non o.ced
768 MB DDR-RAM PC 2700 Samsung (2 sticks)
WinXP home, SP1, Catalyst 3.1 but tried Hercules Catalyst3.4, no
improvement.



  #4  
Old July 3rd 03, 04:15 PM
RickB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

They sent me the same email. Since I posted I've done hours of research on
the net. Here is what I've found:

1) The problem is not confined to ATI. Nvida cards have the same issue.
2) The problem is most prevalent on XP, although it can show up on 2000.
3) The problem is aggravated by video drivers that "push" a card to its
limits.
4) There is currently a lot of finger pointing going on between the video
card companies, Microsoft, and the MB manufacturers.
5) Some people think it's a power supply problem. I tend to doubt this for
2 reasons. 1 - if it were a hardware/PS problem, the OS wouldn't matter and
2 - I have a 550W power supply. 550W is way overkill for a machine with a
video card, a controller, 4 DIMMs, and a sound card. I have monitoring
software that shows plenty of capacity to spare.

In my case, I still point the finger at ATI. The fact remains that I had a
system that had NEVER displayed any issues until I upgraded to newer
drivers. Uninstalling and going back to previous drivers did not solve the
issue. This morning, I once again uninstalled all ATI drivers, rebooted,
manually removed all ATI registry entries, and reinstalled the drivers from
2/28/03. I have been crash free for 3 hours (did I just give myself the
kiss of death?). If my machine continues to be crash free, then it was the
registry settings that were causing the issues. ATI should be more careful
about removing their own garbage remnants from the registry, at the very
least.

This site has the best information on the issue:

http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=64

RickB

"NT Canuck" wrote in message
a...
"RickB" wrote in message

...

The driver ati2dvag for the display device \Device\Video0 got stuck
in an infinite loop. This usually indicates a problem with the device
itself or with the device driver programming the hardware incorrectly.
Please check with your hardware device vendor for any driver updates.


Here is slight edit of an email I received on that issue, if that helps.

------
Based on our experience, the issue(s) you describe are usually due to

system configuration errors. We believe that the
troubleshooting steps listed below may help to resolve this issue.

If you own one of our Radeon products, you may consider reviewing the

information at:

http://www.ati.com/support/products/...eonissues.html

If the ATI display adapter you have is an AGP card, you should also

consider reviewing the information at:

http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/3179.html

You may also consider using the new SEARCH ATI function on our web site.

It can be found at:

http://www.ati.com/search/index.html


Regards,

Customer Service Canada
===========================================
Prior to trying the suggestions listed below, ensure that

1. The most current version of DirectX is downloaded/installed for your

version of the Operating System. DirectX can be found on
the Microsoft website at

http://www.microsoft.com/directx/homeuser/downloads/default.asp

2. The most current Microsoft Critical Updates and Service Packs are

installed. The Windows Update webpage can be found at the
on the Microsoft website at

http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/en/default.asp.

3. The most current motherboard drivers are downloaded/installed (i.e.

AGP, IRQ, IDE Busmastering). The most current drivers for
your motherboard can be found on the motherboard manufacturers website.

4. The most current display driver is downloaded/installed for your ATI

product.
http://www.ati.com/support/driver.html

5. The most current sound card drivers have been installed.
===========================================
ATI Driver and Software Installation Instructions for Radeon family of

products.

learn more http://www.ati.com/support/installation/radeon.html

===========================================
"This display driver is not compatible" error installing drivers under

Windows 2000/XP.

Ensure you are using the Reference driver if using a "Powered by AtI"

card. The drivers posted on the ATI website, will only
install if a retail ATI card is installed in the machine.

ATI provides graphics chips and technology to third party vendors or

partners. Graphic cards produced by these vendors may be
identified by the "POWERED BY ATI" logo.

For support information on your "POWERED BY ATI" partner product, please

visit:

http://www.ati.com/support/partner/index.html

If you require assistance identifying your "POWERED BY ATI" partner

product, please visit:

http://www.ati.com/support/identify/

Download and install the Reference Drivers located at

http://www.ati.com/support/drivers/partnerproducts/index.html.

learn more http://www.ati.com/support/partner/faq.html


===========================================
InstallShield Errors or Hangs during installation - Windows 2000/XP

1.Try emptying the Windows Temp folder.
- Click Start, Click Run, in the Open line, type temp, and then click OK.
- Delete the contents of the TEMP folder and all the subfolders as well.

2. Try Removing the InstallShield Installation Information Folder.
- Click Start, click Run, in the Open line, type c:\Program Files, and

then click OK.
- In the Program Files dialog box, click the InstallShield Installation

Information folder, and then click Delete.
- Close the Program Files box.

3. Try Removing the InstallShield folder.

A. First Set Windows to show all files.

- On the Desktop, double-click My Computer.
- Click Tools, and then click Folder Options.
- Click the View tab, and then click to select the "Show Hidden files and

folders" check box.
- Click APPLY and then OK.

B. Delete the InstallShield Folder.

- Click Start, and then click Run.
- In the Open box, type the following (including the quotation marks):

"c:\program files\common files\"
- Right-click the InstallShield folder, click Delete, and then click Yes

to confirm the deletion.

4. Try re-installing the ATI Software
===========================================
How do I extend my desktop to the second monitor in Windows 98/98SE/ME/XP

using an ATI dual head display adapter?

learn more

http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/...top98mexp.html
===========================================
System hangs or freezes at random after installing ATI drivers:

This issue may be related to the allocation of resources, particularly

IRQs. You want to ensure that the ATI display adapter IS
assigned and NOT sharing an IRQ. Use the following webpage to check for

possible IRQ sharing or configuration issues.

For Windows XP please see the following page:
http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/...in2kxpirq.html
===========================================
BIOS update/settings:

You may consider using these settings in your BIOS to help troubleshoot

your issue. If you are changing any of the options in
your BIOS, please be sure to note what you are changing and what it was

set to initially.

NOTE: These options may vary depending on the type/version of your system.

You may or may not have all these options. Please
consider changing the settings that correspond to those listed below.

- Video BIOS Shadow and Video BIOS Cacheable - DISABLED
- C8000-CBFFFF Shadow and CC000-CFFFF - DISABLED
- AGP Aperture size - 64 MB
- AGP Turbo - DISABLED
- VGA Frame Buffer and Primary Frame Buffer - DISABLED
- PnP OS installed - YES
- Assign IRQ for VGA - ENABLED
- Resource Control - AUTO
- AGP Bus Mastering - ENABLED
- VGA Palette Snooping - DISABLED
- Disable any UCSW or Write Combine options in the CMOS
- Disable any manual configuration of PCI by setting these options to AUTO
- System Bios Cacheable - DISABLED
- Video BIOS Mode Cache - UC
- Try lowering the AGP support (i.e. from AGP 4X to AGP 2X). If this

resolves the issue, you may consider contacting the
motherboard/chipset vendor for more information regarding the GART support

available on the motherboard/chipset.
===========================================
Ensure that Direct3D, DirectDraw and AGP Acceleration are all ENABLED.

1. Select START and then RUN
2. Type DXDIAG and then select the OK button
3. Select the DISPLAY TAB
===========================================
PCI Cards

Try moving the ATI card to a different PCI slot.
===========================================
System restarts to a Black Screen after installing the ATI Display

Drivers.

Assuming all the updates have been applied, try the following.

1. Try changing the refresh rate. If the monitor offers more than one

frequency, choose the lowest frequency first to ensure
that the display functions correctly.

- Click on START, SETTINGS, CONTROL PANEL
- Double click on the DISPLAY icon
- Click on the SETTINGS tab, then the ADVANCED button
- Click on the ADJUSTMENT tab, then the REFRESH RATE button.
- Ensure that the refresh rate is NOT set to "UNKNOWN".

learn more

http://www.ati.com/support/faq/win2k...freshrate.html

2. Restart into SAFEMODE and uninstall the AGP portion of the motherboard

drivers.

If using a VIA chipset based motherboard, rerun the installation and

uninstall only the AGP drivers once prompted.
Most cases, the AGP or motherboard drivers can be uninstalled using the

Add/Remove Programs located in the Control Panel.

3. If your motherboard has onboard video, ensure that the onboard video

has been properly uninstalled.
4. Try lowering the Graphics Hardware Slider and then testing.

learn more

http://www.ati.com/support/faq/win2k...celslider.html - Windows 2000/XP

5. Check for a system bios update.
6. Try the card in another system.
7. If PCI, try the card in another PCI slot.

learn more http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/3179.html

=============================================
Uninstall and Reinstall the ATI Display Driver and ATI Multimedia Center -

Windows 2000/XP.

For more information please refer to

http://www.ati.com/support/faq/win2k...tallation.html
for driver installation steps.

1. Uninstall the ATI Multimedia Center followed by the ATI Display Driver.
Both are located in the ADD\REMOVE Programs under the control panel

2. Restart into SAFEMODE.

Hold Down the SHIFT key or tap the F8 key as your system restarts.

3. Remove all monitors and display adapters listed under Device Manager.

To Access Device Manager under Windows 2000/XP

A. Right-Click My Computer
B. Click on PROPERTIES
C. Select the HARDWARE TAB
D. Select the DEVICE MANAGER BUTTON

4. Select START and then RUN. In the Open Field type REGEDIT followed by

selecting the OK button.

NOTE: Prior to making any changes please backup your system registry.

To backup the system registry.

A. Select and highlight My Computer in the Registry Editor
B. Select File and then Export
C. Export Registry File dialogue box will then appear
D. In the File Name Field type the name of the file (i.e. Backup)
E. Ensure that "ALL" is selected in the Export Range section
F. Select the SAVE button.

5. Remove the following registry keys:

NOTE: Not all keys will be available under every OS.

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\ATI Technologies
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ATI
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ATI Technologies

6. Close the Registry Editor and restart the system
7. Allow the system to redetect the display adapter. Allow Windows to

install a default VGA graphics adapter.

NOTE: This will not occur under all operating systems.

8. Once prompted restart the system.
9. Windows will then redetect the monitor. Allow the system to install

standard monitor driver for your display
10. Install DirectX and then restart the system (located at

http://www.microsoft.com/directx)
11. Install the Video Capture Update - Restart once prompted (located at

http://www.microsoft.com/directx)

NOTE: If you have DirectX 8.1 installed you do not need to install the

Video Capture Update.

12. Install the ATI display drivers and then the ATI MMC - Restart once

prompted
13. Test the PC
==============================================
Drivers and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) :

Windows XP: http://www.ati.com/support/faq/winxp.html
-------

--
NT Canuck
http://ntcanuck.com




  #5  
Old July 3rd 03, 08:31 PM
Nick Le Lievre
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"RickB" wrote in message
...
They sent me the same email. Since I posted I've done hours of research

on
the net. Here is what I've found:

1) The problem is not confined to ATI. Nvida cards have the same issue.
2) The problem is most prevalent on XP, although it can show up on 2000.
3) The problem is aggravated by video drivers that "push" a card to its
limits.
4) There is currently a lot of finger pointing going on between the video
card companies, Microsoft, and the MB manufacturers.
5) Some people think it's a power supply problem. I tend to doubt this

for
2 reasons. 1 - if it were a hardware/PS problem, the OS wouldn't matter

and
2 - I have a 550W power supply. 550W is way overkill for a machine with a
video card, a controller, 4 DIMMs, and a sound card. I have monitoring
software that shows plenty of capacity to spare.


I had this problem sometimes its caused by BIOS settings sometimes by
defective memory in your case as you haven`t changed the BIOS settings I
suspect your ram is going bad try these BIOS settings and test with prime
95;

1. BIOS Fail Safe Loaded (sometimes called Load Setup Defaults)
2. AGP set to 2x
3. Change memory DRAM clock from SPD to match CPU`s fsb
4. Command Decode set to Normal (as per fail safe settings)
5. AGP Aperture at 64MB (as per fail safe settings)

If infinite loop still occurs with above check the ram in another board/try
a brand new stick it could be shafted. Note BIOS settings aren`t available
on all boards.

I had it happen with a bad memory stick and also with good stick and some
more aggresive BIOS settings a good way to check stability is with prime 95
http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm run it for 12 hours.



  #6  
Old July 4th 03, 12:12 AM
NT Canuck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"RickB" wrote in message ...

They sent me the same email. Since I posted I've done hours of research on
the net. Here is what I've found:

1) The problem is not confined to ATI. Nvida cards have the same issue.


For normal use/fsb there were no errors other than some trouble
with USB 2.0 enabled in BIOS (P4 Soyo board).

For myself...same everything...
ATI-7500 64mb had no error (ran card 6 months)
ATI-8500LE 64mb had no error (ran card 2 months)

ATI-9500pro 128mb error on any fsb overclock
although some rare startup graphics glitches...
which leads me to suspect the ATI card BIOS and
not just their vga driver. Oddly...no graphic startup
glitches since I removed the manuf. shim under card
fan and used a bit of arctic silver to mount to video processor.
Also quite a bit cooler to touch backside of video card where
the video processor is located.
(chassis 35c, P4 45c)...but video glitch came up at much lower
temps and is stable now at default fsb.

**had to disable BIOS setting for USB 2.0 mainboard support,
but only to "setup the card with winxp", also disabling all the
usb devices until AFTER card drivers installed helps in cases.

2) The problem is most prevalent on XP, although it can show up on 2000.


Not tried this, but will do some more testing over weeked to see
what card bios or video drivers may be better. Win98 or WinME
will be more forgiving to fsb speeds and processor overclocks
than Win2k.

3) The problem is aggravated by video drivers that "push" a card to its
limits.


I suspect just one timing error or synchoniztion setting,
could be some new critter/feature introduced lately by
the video card.

4) There is currently a lot of finger pointing going on between the video
card companies, Microsoft, and the MB manufacturers.


I don't think it;s MS, the cards most effected are newer than the OS's.

Possibly the MB manufacturers...won't be first time I've seen mainboard
BIOS's that don't work/recognize/synchronize AGP slots for video....this
is usually more in line with address spaces not assigned correctly.

As for video card companies...I don't think they test on all the boards
and not many boards test with cards as they come out. Should be some
3rd party "validating" facility for sound and video confirmations w/boards.
But yes...the BIOS's are likely not set perfectly, and video drivers are
set with way too many options (gui etc)...just a plain jane that works!

5) Some people think it's a power supply problem. I tend to doubt this for
2 reasons. 1 - if it were a hardware/PS problem, the OS wouldn't matter and
2 - I have a 550W power supply. 550W is way overkill for a machine with a
video card, a controller, 4 DIMMs, and a sound card. I have monitoring
software that shows plenty of capacity to spare.


I can see power to video a problem a few years ago...but you can set
the voltage in BIOS now, and the ATI already has an extra power connector
for the 9500/9700/9800...what is that?...window dressing?

In my case, I still point the finger at ATI.


Some goes to the via (in my case) miniports for the agp...
too many critters involved here.
mainboard and bios...via chipsets and drivers...and ati (for one thing)

The fact remains that I had a
system that had NEVER displayed any issues until I upgraded to newer
drivers. Uninstalling and going back to previous drivers did not solve the
issue. This morning, I once again uninstalled all ATI drivers, rebooted,
manually removed all ATI registry entries, and reinstalled the drivers from
2/28/03. I have been crash free for 3 hours (did I just give myself the
kiss of death?). If my machine continues to be crash free, then it was the
registry settings that were causing the issues. ATI should be more careful
about removing their own garbage remnants from the registry, at the very
least.


Many programs leave "garbage" in the registry,
there should be a fine for littering! Then they_all
bitch at MS or the users....just sloppy programming
for the install/uninstall functions...no excuses for that.

This site has the best information on the issue:

http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=64


Thanks Rick...but I have done most of that and more.

I don't think the gpu is cooled properly....for one thing.
Also the default mem/gpu clock timings in vid card bios
maybe too aggressive (high). I am actually going to try
dropping then about 10% and see if higher fsb is ok then.
Most of my concern is overall stabiltiy and not highest 3D.
In the old days...underclocking gave longer cpu life/stability.

I have the ATI retail 9500pro, it's biggest value here is great
color, sharp edges on graphics and dual monitor html editing.
Some games played...even the ATI 7500 was good enough
and the 8500 was quick but not as clear colors.

Ok...thanks for the info, good luck!

--
'Seek and ye shall find'
NT Canuck
http://ntcanuck.com BIND-PE & DNS
http://ntcanuck.com/tq/ Tips & Tweaks


  #7  
Old July 4th 03, 12:19 PM
Mike Gorman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ATI-9500pro 128mb error on any fsb overclock
although some rare startup graphics glitches...
which leads me to suspect the ATI card BIOS and
not just their vga driver.


Hey, heres' a dumb question. Is there supposed to be some ATI boot graphics
when starting the computer? I recently got myself the 9500PRo and there
aren't on mine. Just curious.


  #8  
Old July 4th 03, 04:09 PM
RickB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My system has a server board with expensive ECC and max error correcting is
enabled. My board also has the extra 24v server PS connector and a 550W
PS.

I didn't say the ONLY cause was XP. I said it was a combination of XP with
the video drivers, etc.

Absolutely NOTHING changed in my 4 months old stable system except updating
the ATI drivers. The infinite loop problem then began manifesting itself
within 15 minutes.

Since uninstalling the ATI drivers, manually removing the ATI registry
entries, and reinstalling the 2/28/03 drivers, the problem has not
reappeared. With somebody else perhaps the cause was bad memory, but not
me. I would even go so far as to say that in this case, there are probably
multiple possible reasons on different systems. However, when you have a
perfectly stable system and make one software change which immediately
manifests an issue, you can be pretty sure you don't have a hardware
problem.



"Nick Le Lievre" wrote in message
...
"RickB" wrote in message
...
They sent me the same email. Since I posted I've done hours of research

on
the net. Here is what I've found:

1) The problem is not confined to ATI. Nvida cards have the same issue.
2) The problem is most prevalent on XP, although it can show up on 2000.
3) The problem is aggravated by video drivers that "push" a card to its
limits.
4) There is currently a lot of finger pointing going on between the

video
card companies, Microsoft, and the MB manufacturers.
5) Some people think it's a power supply problem. I tend to doubt this

for
2 reasons. 1 - if it were a hardware/PS problem, the OS wouldn't matter

and
2 - I have a 550W power supply. 550W is way overkill for a machine with

a
video card, a controller, 4 DIMMs, and a sound card. I have monitoring
software that shows plenty of capacity to spare.


I had this problem sometimes its caused by BIOS settings sometimes by
defective memory in your case as you haven`t changed the BIOS settings I
suspect your ram is going bad try these BIOS settings and test with prime
95;

1. BIOS Fail Safe Loaded (sometimes called Load Setup Defaults)
2. AGP set to 2x
3. Change memory DRAM clock from SPD to match CPU`s fsb
4. Command Decode set to Normal (as per fail safe settings)
5. AGP Aperture at 64MB (as per fail safe settings)

If infinite loop still occurs with above check the ram in another

board/try
a brand new stick it could be shafted. Note BIOS settings aren`t available
on all boards.

I had it happen with a bad memory stick and also with good stick and some
more aggresive BIOS settings a good way to check stability is with prime

95
http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm run it for 12 hours.





  #9  
Old July 4th 03, 11:34 PM
NT Canuck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Gorman" wrote in message news:XodNa.8698$Ix2.2506@rwcrnsc54...

Hey, heres' a dumb question. Is there supposed to be some ATI boot graphics
when starting the computer? I recently got myself the 9500PRo and there
aren't on mine. Just curious.


Hi Mike,

I don't see any ATI boot or post screens here,
if the extra power lead on the video card is not hooked up
a warning should pop up on the display during BIOS Post/initialization,
but that is all I've come across (ATI retail 9500pro).

--
'Seek and ye shall find'
NT Canuck
http://ntcanuck.com BIND-PE & DNS
http://ntcanuck.com/tq/ Tips & Tweaks


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thunderbird 1.1Ghz crashes Chase Overclocking AMD Processors 4 November 8th 04 11:05 AM
9600SE vs 9500PRO jim fallon Asus Motherboards 28 June 8th 04 01:19 AM
SmartUSB56 modem crashes system while online Andreas Mitsis Asus Motherboards 0 October 16th 03 05:48 PM
Overclocking Radeon leads to game crashes Mitchua Overclocking 1 August 12th 03 06:56 PM
help random crashes ben reed General 3 July 17th 03 12:13 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 HardwareBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.