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I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 28th 06, 06:54 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
AirRaid Mach 2.5
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Posts: 52
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html

To try to get to the bottom of this situation, IGN contacted Microsoft
and asked a few tough questions. Plenty of questions remain -- we're
waiting to hear even more from the company -- but here's what we have
so far.

IGN: Will games begin to be developed with 1080p as the native
resolution, or is the 360's new 1080p support an advance in the
console's internal scaling abilities?

Microsoft: If developed, the Xbox 360 will support playback of native
1080p games and all existing Xbox 360 titles can be up-scaled to 1080p.

IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.

IGN: There are very few 1080p native HDTVs that accept 1080p via
Component connections. The signal will only come in as 1080i and be
de-interlaced back to 1080p. How is the 360's new 1080p support, in
practical application, going to be any different than what was already
possible?

Microsoft: We can offer 1080p support through both the VGA connection
and the Component connection.

IGN: Could Microsoft theoretically release an HDMI dongle-cable like
the various other cables already available for the console? Is the
current 360 hardware able to output a digital signal, or is it
restricted to analog?

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is
compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's
not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will
continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.

Microsoft's current response doesn't yet explain how the company can
rectify its claimed support of 1080p with the fact that the 360 doesn't
support the connection (HDMI) that will actually allow most 1080p HDTVs
to display the signal. While the VGA solution may work for a minority
of 1080p HDTV owners, we're left wondering if Microsoft is promoting
this new 1080p capability primarily to blunt the onslaught of the
PlayStation 3, which supports HDMI and 1080p. Direct information
regarding whether or not the current X360 hardware is able to output a
digital signal would clarify the entire situation, but Microsoft hasn't
been able to answer this question.

Back in the days before the 360 launched, Microsoft stated that HDMI
wires for the Xbox 360 would be released "when the market called for
them." If the Xbox 360 is really going to be a 1080p machine, we're
pretty sure the market is calling for HDMI wires right now. The next
question is whether Microsoft will hear it.
_______________________________________________




this question and non-answer was especially telling


IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.


....................it doesn't matter what cables are (VGA, component,
HDMI) if a machine isn't capable of rendering true 1080p native
resolution to begin with........

I question the ability of the Xbox 360 to do true 1080p knowing the
bandwidth constraints.
the main external bandwidth in Xbox 360 is pretty low (22.4 GB/sec)
the internal bandwidth EDRAMProcessing Logic of the second graphics
chip is very high (256 GB/sec) but that might not
help the Xbox 360 hit 1080p.


the Xbox 360 is at heart, a 720p machine with the ability to do 1080i
also, but the software upgrade for 1080p seem very hollow.

  #2  
Old September 28th 06, 07:08 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Zomoniac
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Posts: 16
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

On 2006-09-28 18:54:49 +0100, "AirRaid Mach 2.5" said:

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is
compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's
not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will
continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.


Isn't the minimum requirement for a TV to carry the HD Ready sticker
that it supports 720p AND HDMI??

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.

So by definition, that statement makes no sense.

--
Zo

For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360)

  #3  
Old September 28th 06, 07:46 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Jason Viers
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Posts: 1
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

AirRaid Mach 2.5 wrote:
IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.


Note the article's been updated

IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: *updated* Yes, the Xbox 360 has the necessary internal
bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors to move a full 1080p image.
  #4  
Old September 28th 06, 07:59 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Paulo De Souza
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Posts: 1
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually
display HDTV.


Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV
image.


  #5  
Old September 28th 06, 10:23 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Martin Linklater
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Posts: 5
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

On 2006-09-28 18:54:49 +0100, "AirRaid Mach 2.5" said:
this question and non-answer was especially telling


IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.


3GB/sec is a trivial bandwidth for CPU-GPU hardware. That's not a
problem at all.



...................it doesn't matter what cables are (VGA, component,
HDMI) if a machine isn't capable of rendering true 1080p native
resolution to begin with........

I question the ability of the Xbox 360 to do true 1080p knowing the
bandwidth constraints.
the main external bandwidth in Xbox 360 is pretty low (22.4 GB/sec)
the internal bandwidth EDRAMProcessing Logic of the second graphics
chip is very high (256 GB/sec) but that might not
help the Xbox 360 hit 1080p.


I'm not an XBox360 dev but I'd say the major problem for the getting
the 360 to do 1080p in games will be graphics mem. Bandwidth is
something the 360 has plenty of. Once you up your screen buffers to
1080p you need a serious amount of graphics memory - 8MB for colour
buffer, 8MB for 32bit Z-buffer.

Now I'm not sure about how clever the 360 GPU is and whether it does
fancy tiled z-buffer stuff, but you can rest assured than any new title
which wants to use proper 1080p in game is going to have to make some
sacrifices somewhere. The 360 only has 10MB of 'proper' graphics
memory, so there are going to have to be some clever multi-pass or
tiling techniques needed to get 1080p in game. MS do seem to have been
able to coax 1080p out of the graphics chip but that doesn't mean that
it can do it without a fair few compromises.

As for HDMI I doubt the 360 has the encryption logic onboard to support
the standard. There's nothing stopping MS producing a new 360 with an
HDMI connector, but I seriously doubt you'll see an HDMI connector for
the current hardware.

But like I say, I'm not privvy to the internal developer info regarding
the 360, so I could ba talking rubbish...

--
Gamertag: FizzyChicken

  #6  
Old September 28th 06, 10:50 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Zomoniac
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Posts: 16
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza"
said:

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.


Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a
HDTV image.


Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV,
which means HDCP.

--
Zo

For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360)

  #7  
Old September 28th 06, 11:11 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Tom Scales
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Posts: 3,502
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p


"Zomoniac" wrote in message
...
On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza"
said:

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.


Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV
image.


Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which
means HDCP.

--
Zo



I don't follow that. Why does it have to have HDCP? I have a 37"
Westinghouse that does 1080p and plays my HD content just fine. It's
certainly HD Ready.

What in the world does HDCP or HDMI have to do with it?


  #8  
Old September 28th 06, 11:15 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
nicely toasted
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Posts: 2
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

"Zomoniac" wrote in message
...
On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza"
said:

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.


Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV
image.


Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which
means HDCP.


What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to
the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching
HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP...



  #9  
Old September 28th 06, 11:21 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Zomoniac
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Posts: 16
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

On 2006-09-28 23:11:09 +0100, "Tom Scales" said:


"Zomoniac" wrote in message
...
On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza"
said:

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.

Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a
HDTV image.


Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV,
which means HDCP.

--
Zo



I don't follow that. Why does it have to have HDCP? I have a 37"
Westinghouse that does 1080p and plays my HD content just fine. It's
certainly HD Ready.

What in the world does HDCP or HDMI have to do with it?


You can't view HDCP protected tv broadcasts, ie all HD broadcasts,
without HDCP, which is only supported by HDMI and a few DVI ports. So a
TV like the Samsung 23", whilst it's HD resolution and will play 360
games and HD-DVDs at HD res, is not allowed to carry the HD Ready logo,
because it can't display HDTV broadcasts, due to it only having
analogue connections through VGA and Component.

Annoyingly I can't find an example as 6 months ago, as you may be
aware, Samsung changed all their product line, and the new 23" models
have HDMI and carry the badge. If you can find anywhere selling the old
model, the one that is in the 360 demo pods, you'll see it doesn't have
HDMI and doesn't carry the HD Ready badge.

(by the way, I notice this has been crossposted. The ruling stating
that only HDCP support sets can carry the badge is a UK thing, where
I'm from, so if you're posting from a US group and your rules are
different, this may explain the confusion)

--
Zo

For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360)

  #10  
Old September 28th 06, 11:22 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati,alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox,uk.games.video.xbox
Zomoniac
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Posts: 16
Default I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

On 2006-09-28 23:15:02 +0100, "nicely toasted" said:

"Zomoniac" wrote in message
...
On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza"
said:

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.

Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a
HDTV image.


Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV,
which means HDCP.


What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your
theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are
currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP...


I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK
you can't get HDTV without HDCP.

--
Zo

For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360)

 




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