best cloning method?

Hope I'm not going off topic here but - I'd recommend using VMware
Server (formerly known as GSX).

It's now free!

BETA = no support.

I haven't used it yet but I did use VMware Player for a
bit and there was no problem.

What problem?

Using a virtual machine is more convenient than cloning the hard disk.
If your PC motherboard fails, the cloned hard disk is unlikely to be
bootable on different hardware. A virtual machine isolates you from
that.

You mean I can run virtual machine with no hardware?

You can stop the virtual machine, copy out the image files, and that's
your complete portable system backup that you can run on any new
hardware, even with a different PC brand.

Almost.

Best if you're setting up a machine for the first time. Install some
free Linux to save on license costs, install VMware Server, boot a
virtual machine install from CD (Windows or Linux, whatever, your
actual running OS).

And I would not need a license for Windows running on VM? Is that true?

Details

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:31:21 GMT, Cliffhanger wrote:

On 22 Mar 2006 17:35:26 -0800, wrote:

OK folks -
I used True Image to clone the disk using the clone drive wizard.
Everything seemed to work fine and it copied everything rather quickly,
a nice surprise, HOWEVER... there is a really wierd situation now.
The new 80gig drive is set as the master drive. When I boot into
windows it is the only drive that shows in Windows Explorer even though
the old drive is still connected as a slave. Wierder still is that if
I disconnect the old drive the computer will not boot into windows -
instead giving an error message that it cannot locate a boot disk, or
boot file or something like that. When I reconnect the old drive as
the slave it boots into windows on the new drive with no problem.
Bizarre. Windows doesn't even show the old drive, but it can't boot
the new drive without it. Can anyone shed some light on this. I'd
love to have this work the way it should. I truly can't believe how
complicated this process has become in the past couple years. This
used to take me one try and an hour out of my day - this is going on my
fourth try and countless hours at this point. Thanks all for the help
so far.

BTW - the free version of Casper won't partition the extra space on a
new larger drive, so only 28g of the new 80g drive would be usable, so
I didn't even try it.

My son recently had the exact same problem on an XP-Pro machine where he
had a cloned a new HD.

After much searching, he asked if I had Windows98 boot floppy. Apparently,
he had found a newsgroup thread that suggested, disconnecting the old
drive, booting from the W98 floppy and using "fdisk /mbr". Then rebooting
from the new drive.

A little while later, he came downstairs and said: "I never thought I'd be
so glad to have a w98 floppy".

YMMV. I can't locate the place where he found this advice. But, if you'd
like, I'll ask him tonight and post it.

Bill

Google for "Kawecki's Trick"

"do not let new-XP see the old-XP partition the first time it boots.
If new-XP sees old-XP, it won't reuse the original drive letter when it
assigns a drive letter to itself."...........

"If the clone has already been made (and we don't wish to start over with
Method #2 and reclone), we can fool Windows into thinking the previously
assigned drive letters belong to partitions that no longer exist. Drive
letters are remembered by partition signature, so by invalidating the
previous signatures we can induce 2000/XP into releasing previously used
drive letters for reassignment.

One way of doing this is to alter or delete the DiskID in the MBR. Since
the DiskID is part of the partition signatures, this forces a change in the
signatures and previously remembered drive letters can be reassigned
because they no longer match valid partition signatures. To easiest way to
delete the DiskID is to use a Win98 boot floppy (aka, "Windows 98 Startup
Disk"). Boot the computer from the boot floppy, run the command "fdisk
/mbr", remove the floppy, and reboot into 2000/XP. "

The Win98 "fdisk /mbr" command is similar to the 2000/XP "fixmbr" command
(used from the 2000/XP recovery console). The intended purpose of both
commands is to restore the MBR boot code, and both commands replace the
boot code but do not alter the partition table at the end of the master
boot sector. The two commands are not exactly identical, however. As
detailed by Michal Kawecki, the NT/2000/XP boot code is 440 bytes, while
the Win98 boot code is 446 bytes (271 bytes of executable code, 80 bytes in
error messages, and 95 bytes filled with zeroes). The NT/2000/XP "fixmbr"
command replaces the MBR boot code but stops short of overwriting the four
bytes of the DiskID that sits between the boot code and the partition
table. The Win98 "fdisk /mbr" command will replace the boot code and zero
the DiskID--albeit, unintentionally. As Kawecki points out, we can take
advantage of that "mistake" because it has the effect of invalidating the
partition signatures--since the signature is derived from the DiskID and
Windows has to regenerate a new DiskID, it has to recalculate the
signatures and assign new drive letters, abandoning any previous
assignments.


Bill

alanm wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Anna wrote
Timothy Daniels wrote
asled

Is there a nice simple DOS program that I can run that
will format the new drive, copy the old to the new, and
make the new drive bootable?

Yes! And it's free for 30 days. It's called Casper XP.
www.FSSdev.com/products/casperxp. I've used half
a dozen other cloning utilities, and for cloning (as opposed
to image files and incrmental backups) it's the best and
the easiest to use. It will copy the MBR to the new drive,
it will mark the new paritition "active" (if only one partition
is being cloned), and the new partition will be as bootable
as the one cloned. Casper can be made to clone in either
of 2 modes - the entirety of one HD can be cloned to the
entirety of another HD, or just one partition can be cloned
to another HD which may or may not already have other
partitions on it. (True Image cannot do the latter.)

As with all cloning, disconnect the old drive before
starting up the clone OS for the first time. The clone
may be *seen* by the old OS before the clone is
first started up, but the clone must not see the old OS
until after it has undergone its first startup. Thereafter,
at subsequent startups, the clone may see its "parent"
OS without problems.

Sorry, Casper XP does not run under DOS, but that
matters not a whit - it will copy everything while running
under WinXP, including the wretched Symantec anti-virus
software with all its settings and its subscription life span.
Just disconnect the PC from the internet and disable the
AV off before cloning to be sure.

wrote

Thanks for the reply. I'm trying True Image right now, but don't
know how to make a bootable CD with the utilites in linux. I saw a
part of the program for making bootable recovery cd/dvd's but I'm
sure that's different. Can you point me in the right direction?

Steve:
We're talking *direct* disk-to-disk cloning here, right?

In addition to Tim's recommendation re the Casper XP program, let me
offer the following...

If you're primarily interested in using a disk cloning program with
either a bootable floppy disk or bootable CD as the media to carry
out the cloning operation, you may be interested in Symantec's
Norton Ghost 2003 program.

True Image makes a lot more sense.
Ghost 2003 is way past its useby date now.

Bull****.

Fact. Its lan support is completey ****ed, it cant do incremental images,
its user interface is quite ****ed, its hopeless for simpler users if the
image creation goes bad for even the simplest reason, etc etc etc.

yuenkitmun wrote:

Hope I'm not going off topic here but - I'd recommend
using VMware Server (formerly known as GSX).

It's now free! I haven't used it yet but I did use
VMware Player for a bit and there was no problem.

Using a virtual machine is more convenient than cloning
the hard disk. If your PC motherboard fails, the cloned
hard disk is unlikely to be bootable on different hardware.

Its completly trivial to fix that using an install in place.

A virtual machine isolates you from that.

You can stop the virtual machine, copy out the image files,
and that's your complete portable system backup that you
can run on any new hardware, even with a different PC brand.

Its completly trivial to do that using an install in place.

Best if you're setting up a machine for the first time.
Install some free Linux to save on license costs, install
VMware Server, boot a virtual machine install from CD
(Windows or Linux, whatever, your actual running OS).

And then the **** hits the fan when much of what
works fine on XP doesnt on VMWare. No thanks.

Details

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware

"Cliffhanger" wrote:
[.........]
After much searching, he asked if I had Windows98
boot floppy. Apparently, he had found a newsgroup thread
that suggested, disconnecting the old drive, booting from the
W98 floppy and using "fdisk /mbr". Then rebooting from the
new drive.

A little while later, he came downstairs and said: "I never
thought I'd be so glad to have a w98 floppy".

YMMV. I can't locate the place where he found this advice.
But, if you'd like, I'll ask him tonight and post it.


It's probably this: http://www.bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm

*TimDaniels*

Timothy Daniels wrote
Cliffhanger wrote

After much searching, he asked if I had Windows98
boot floppy. Apparently, he had found a newsgroup thread
that suggested, disconnecting the old drive, booting from the
W98 floppy and using "fdisk /mbr". Then rebooting from the
new drive.

A little while later, he came downstairs and said: "I never thought I'd
be so glad to have a w98 floppy".

YMMV. I can't locate the place where he found this advice.
But, if you'd like, I'll ask him tonight and post it.

It's probably this: http://www.bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm

That isnt the ADVICE he is clearly talking about.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 09:45:40 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

Timothy Daniels wrote
Cliffhanger wrote

After much searching, he asked if I had Windows98
boot floppy. Apparently, he had found a newsgroup thread
that suggested, disconnecting the old drive, booting from the
W98 floppy and using "fdisk /mbr". Then rebooting from the
new drive.

A little while later, he came downstairs and said: "I never thought I'd
be so glad to have a w98 floppy".

YMMV. I can't locate the place where he found this advice.
But, if you'd like, I'll ask him tonight and post it.

It's probably this: http://www.bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm

That isnt the ADVICE he is clearly talking about.

No, it isn't ;-)

I posted as "Bill" under "Cliffhanger", not realizing I had ticked a
different profile on my newsreader.

Anyway, here's a link or two
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm#method3
http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaB...m=11226082 59

Bill/Cliffhanger

WOW - this thread has really gotten some legs. Thanks to all for the
advice and guidance - I may try the Ghost route, but now using True
Image seems like a personal challenge. I'll lay out what I did as
specifically as possible - maybe that will point a red flag as to what
I did wrong.
1)Old drive jumpered as slave
2)New drive jumpered as master
3)Bios set to boot old drive
4)Run True Image
5)When it says 'clone complete.....press any key to shut down
computer', I did so.
6)I unplugged the old HD
7)New drive is still jumpered as master
8)Set bios to boot new HD, but shouldn't even matter since only one
drive in system
9)No boot, although the NVIDIA boot agent comes up and twiddles around
for a little bit
10) Rehook up old drive and start again
11) Screen comes up during boot saying that Acronis finished doing
somethingorother and boots into XP
12) C drive (old drive) and F drive (new drive) visible in windows
explorer
13) shut down and unplug old drive
14) boot fails again
15) change bios to boot new drive
16) Screen comes up again during boot saying Acronis finished some
process again and boots into XP
17) C drive (new drive - I know by checking the properties and the size
gives it away) is the only visible hard drive in system
18) shut off computer and unplug old drive
19) gave it another try and boot failure again
I guess I'm missing the concept of exactly what I should do when
Acronis says that the clone is complete (even though it obviously isn't
done because it does more things when rebooted.) When I shut down the
computer, should I jumper the new drive differently, or set the bios to
boot differently? I don't even know if it's copied the MBR at this
point. Before performing the clone the program lays out what it's
going to do in 3 steps. Step 1 is clear the drive (ending in reboot),
Step 2 is clone the drive (ending in reboot) and Step 3 is copy the
Master Boot Record. I don't know if I'm unplugging the old drive
before it copies the MBR - but if I don't it'll go right into XP with
both drives connected and mess it all up again. What the heck am I
missing? Thanks again to everyone.

17)

wrote:

WOW - this thread has really gotten some legs.

You aint seen a thread with real legs yet |-)

Thanks to all for the advice and
guidance - I may try the Ghost route,

It isnt going to make any difference, I bet.

but now using True Image seems like a personal challenge.

And its better to get TI working, Ghost 2003 is a
real dinosaur thats way past its useby date now.

I'll lay out what I did as specifically as possible - maybe
that will point a red flag as to what I did wrong.

Yes, it has.

1)Old drive jumpered as slave
2)New drive jumpered as master
3)Bios set to boot old drive

Does the bios see both drives, are they both
visible on the black bios screen at boot time ?

4)Run True Image
5)When it says 'clone complete.....press
any key to shut down computer', I did so.
6)I unplugged the old HD
7)New drive is still jumpered as master
8)Set bios to boot new HD, but shouldn't
even matter since only one drive in system

Some bios are so stupid that they just whine about
the old drive not being a system disk and dont even
notice that its not plugged in anymore.

9)No boot, although the NVIDIA boot agent
comes up and twiddles around for a little bit

You need to concentrate on that bit, why it wont
boot the new drive when its the only one plugged in.

10) Rehook up old drive and start again
11) Screen comes up during boot saying that Acronis
finished doing somethingorother and boots into XP

Its likely that you did manage to boot the new drive in
that config and that XP gets royally confused when the
old drive and the new drive are both visible for the first
boot of the new drive.

12) C drive (old drive) and F drive
(new drive) visible in windows explorer

Thats what you get when both are visible for
the first boot of the new drive with both visible.

13) shut down and unplug old drive
14) boot fails again

Because XP has both drives involved in the boot now.
Thats a different issue to what the bios boots, and
happens after the bios has booted a physical drive.

15) change bios to boot new drive
16) Screen comes up again during boot saying Acronis
finished some process again and boots into XP
17) C drive (new drive - I know by checking the properties and
the size gives it away) is the only visible hard drive in system

Thats not necessarily the drive you
actually booted at the XP level tho.

XP is quite happy to boot the F drive. You cant check that by the size.

18) shut off computer and unplug old drive
19) gave it another try and boot failure again

I guess I'm missing the concept of exactly what I should do when
Acronis says that the clone is complete (even though it obviously
isn't done because it does more things when rebooted.)

That must have been the cloning done from the installed TI,
not from the rescue CD. When you clone from the rescue CD,
you dont get TI saying anything when you boot the hard drive.

When I shut down the computer, should I jumper the
new drive differently, or set the bios to boot differently?

You should check why 9 doesnt boot.

Have you got the drives on the raid controller on the motherboard ?

Try cloning using the rescue CD instead of from within XP.

I don't even know if it's copied the MBR at this point.

You are cloning the physical drive arent you ?

Before performing the clone the program lays out what it's
going to do in 3 steps. Step 1 is clear the drive (ending in
reboot), Step 2 is clone the drive (ending in reboot)

You dont get that when cloning from the rescue CD.

and Step 3 is copy the Master Boot Record. I don't know
if I'm unplugging the old drive before it copies the MBR

In theory you might be, but you do appear to
be able to boot the new drive when the old drive
is plugged in, so it should have a viable MBR.

- but if I don't it'll go right into XP with both drives connected
and mess it all up again. What the heck am I missing?

See above.

Thanks again to everyone.

wrote in message
oups.com...
WOW - this thread has really gotten some legs. Thanks to all for the
advice and guidance - I may try the Ghost route, but now using True
Image seems like a personal challenge. I'll lay out what I did as

true image is much easier to use as rod suggested.

I have cloned a number of disks over the years using true image. There are
a number of pitfalls that can cause problems. Number one is haveing the new
disk already formatted and on your system. If the disk is in an external
box then you are ok, but if it is on the pata cable then there is a good
chance that xp will put its swap file on it and that is where problems
start. After cloning the swap file is not present. If you boot your "new
disk" it cannot find the swap file as the original disk no longer has it (it
was automatically put on it because XP does not know what you are about to
do and it sees a new disk that has plenty of contiguous space and puts the
swap file there). Usually you see a message "zero length swap file" but not
always. Sometimes is just wont boot and no message. One solution is to use
a dos or win98 floppy and rewrite the mbr. This causes any swap file
information to be deleted and on reboot the OS will find a new place for the
swap file. Just make sure after it boots that the swap file is on the "C"
drive or you will get stuck in a loop.

I assume you have the latest TI that can clone the disk, not the older one
that required a TIB file to be booted up.
I would delete the partition from the new disk, reboot and *ENSURE* that
the swap file is back on the "C" drive, then clone the "C" drive to the
unpartitioned new drive. This should require a cd boot.

After cloning remove the original C and boot the new drive. If you want
both disks to be on the system you probably should change the volume serial
number of the older "C" drive. If you change the VSN of the new boot drive
that will count against your legit (???) copy of XP and you might have to
re-activate. You may want to go to the "D" drive (your old C one) and
delete the swap file to make sure it is never used "pagefile.sys" it is a
hidden file.

I suspect your problems are caused by the swap file being used on the new
disk before it was cloned and on subsequent reboot the OS cant find it.

....HTH...

specifically as possible - maybe that will point a red flag as to what
I did wrong.
1)Old drive jumpered as slave
2)New drive jumpered as master
3)Bios set to boot old drive
4)Run True Image
5)When it says 'clone complete.....press any key to shut down
computer', I did so.
6)I unplugged the old HD
7)New drive is still jumpered as master
8)Set bios to boot new HD, but shouldn't even matter since only one
drive in system
9)No boot, although the NVIDIA boot agent comes up and twiddles around
for a little bit
10) Rehook up old drive and start again
11) Screen comes up during boot saying that Acronis finished doing
somethingorother and boots into XP
12) C drive (old drive) and F drive (new drive) visible in windows
explorer
13) shut down and unplug old drive
14) boot fails again
15) change bios to boot new drive
16) Screen comes up again during boot saying Acronis finished some
process again and boots into XP
17) C drive (new drive - I know by checking the properties and the size
gives it away) is the only visible hard drive in system
18) shut off computer and unplug old drive
19) gave it another try and boot failure again
I guess I'm missing the concept of exactly what I should do when
Acronis says that the clone is complete (even though it obviously isn't
done because it does more things when rebooted.) When I shut down the
computer, should I jumper the new drive differently, or set the bios to
boot differently? I don't even know if it's copied the MBR at this
point. Before performing the clone the program lays out what it's
going to do in 3 steps. Step 1 is clear the drive (ending in reboot),
Step 2 is clone the drive (ending in reboot) and Step 3 is copy the
Master Boot Record. I don't know if I'm unplugging the old drive
before it copies the MBR - but if I don't it'll go right into XP with
both drives connected and mess it all up again. What the heck am I
missing? Thanks again to everyone.

17)