Grounding an ungrounded outlet

Hi all,

I just discovered today that none of the outlets in my house are grounded.
The house is literally 100 years old, and the wiring probably 50 years. At
first I thought one outlet was screwy, so I tried a few more, and none of
them grounded.

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY
ashion - calling in an electrician to re-wire the house is out of the
question)

We have metal radiators in every room, but I'm not sure if they are attached
to ground anywhere. Another idea was to run a heavy guage ground wire from
the outlet into the dirt crawlspace in the basement.

Test methods for checking ground:

a) Surge protector has a ground-ok light: no light = no ground
b) Smart-UPS has an error light for wiring fault, this stays lit
c) DMM reads no potentional between live and ground (should be ~110V right?)

While I'm at it, is it ok to connect UPS to surge protector ? (ie. Supply -
Surge protector - UPS - Load)

Chris

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:21:32 -0500, Skeleton Man wrote:

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY

See http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrica...outlet-2-1.htm

Most likely you'll find an existing ground wire connected to the telephone
demarcation box. See what it's connected to.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)

Skeleton Man wrote:
Hi all,

I just discovered today that none of the outlets in my house are grounded.
The house is literally 100 years old, and the wiring probably 50 years. At
first I thought one outlet was screwy, so I tried a few more, and none of
them grounded.

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY
ashion - calling in an electrician to re-wire the house is out of the
question)

We have metal radiators in every room, but I'm not sure if they are attached
to ground anywhere. Another idea was to run a heavy guage ground wire from
the outlet into the dirt crawlspace in the basement.

Test methods for checking ground:

a) Surge protector has a ground-ok light: no light = no ground
b) Smart-UPS has an error light for wiring fault, this stays lit
c) DMM reads no potentional between live and ground (should be ~110V right?)

While I'm at it, is it ok to connect UPS to surge protector ? (ie. Supply -
Surge protector - UPS - Load)

Chris


If you won't at least talk to a local electrician about it,
try phoning an electrical inspector at city hall. Some of those
guys will give advice, prefacing their advice with "I didn't tell
you this" :-) So you may get some help for free. If all their
phone conversations are recorded, they'll be less helpful.

Computer power supplies have an EMI filter on the front end,
with caps connected to safety ground (and thus, to the metal
chassis of the computer). When such a computer is used in a
"two prong" household, the chassis becomes electrified, and the
user may experience a mild shock when touching the chassis and
something else which happens to be grounded.

For an example of the equivalent circuit of an EMI filter,
try this datasheet. Notice how the "maximum leakage current"
is specified at 1.2 milliamps. So they know that the caps
to safety ground, do pass a small current. Having a safety
ground, in that situation, easily takes care of the 1.2
milliamp current.

http://web.archive.org/web/200311141...i/N+Series.PDF

Paul

Skeleton Man wrote:

I just discovered today that none of the outlets in my house are grounded.
The house is literally 100 years old, and the wiring probably 50 years. At
first I thought one outlet was screwy, so I tried a few more, and none of
them grounded.

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY
ashion - calling in an electrician to re-wire the house is out of the
question)

If your house is 100 years old (or even if wiring is 50 years old
although you don't explain the age difference) and has not had the
wiring replaced then it is still has the old tar coating with cloth
wrap. This means the tar is brittle and will crumple if the wires are
touched. It means the mice have probably eaten away stretches of bare
spots along the wires which makes for a fire hazard. If you have an
unfinished basement and attic, running new wire through the walls will
be a lot easier. You could just rewire the outlets that you need to do
but you'll be doing a minimum of the entire circuit back to the junction
box (which I presume is also the old screw-in fuses rather than circuit
breakers). You can still DIY provided you know how to do the rewiring
in the walls and back to the junction box, and do it right so it passes
the inspector's check.

If you take off the faceplate of an outlet, you should be able to see
the wires that are screwed onto the outlet receptacle. Hopefully some
of the insulated portion of the wire can still be seen to determine what
type of insulation coating it has (so you don't have to pull out the
receptacle which will crumble the old tar-based coating if that's what
is on the wires).

Check with Home Depot as a buddy told me that they occasionally have
classes you can take to help with DIY jobs. You could also try asking
at the DIY forums at http://boards.diynetwork.com/.

If your house is 100 years old (or even if wiring is 50 years old
although you don't explain the age difference)

I'm guessing at the wiring age because the house was built before
electricity was available.
The house has wooden siding and shingles, and stone foundations in the
basement.

and has not had the
wiring replaced then it is still has the old tar coating with cloth
wrap. This means the tar is brittle and will crumple if the wires are
touched. It means the mice have probably eaten away stretches of bare
spots along the wires which makes for a fire hazard.

The wiring isn't as old as I thought then - there are indeed cloth insulated
wires going to one or two outlets, but most are plastic insulation (romex?).
The outlets are all 3 wire outlets, but NONE of them have 3 wires, ie no
ground wire going to any of the outlets.

If you have an
unfinished basement and attic, running new wire through the walls will
be a lot easier. You could just rewire the outlets that you need to do
but you'll be doing a minimum of the entire circuit back to the junction
box (which I presume is also the old screw-in fuses rather than circuit
breakers).

It has both breakers and screw in fuses actually. The main box has all the
breakers, and then a smaller box to the side of it houses about 6 glass
fuses.
There's also small junction boxes for 240V (stove and dryer) outlets (2x
fuses and a large switch).

You can still DIY provided you know how to do the rewiring
in the walls and back to the junction box, and do it right so it passes
the inspector's check.

It's acceptable (legal) to do this yourself ? I have no problem doing it,
just wasn't sure the extent of what was legal to DIY and what required a
licensed contractor.

Chris

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:20:02 -0500, "Skeleton Man"
wrote:

If your house is 100 years old (or even if wiring is 50 years old
although you don't explain the age difference)

I'm guessing at the wiring age because the house was built before
electricity was available.
The house has wooden siding and shingles, and stone foundations in the
basement.

and has not had the
wiring replaced then it is still has the old tar coating with cloth
wrap. This means the tar is brittle and will crumple if the wires are
touched. It means the mice have probably eaten away stretches of bare
spots along the wires which makes for a fire hazard.

The wiring isn't as old as I thought then - there are indeed cloth insulated
wires going to one or two outlets, but most are plastic insulation (romex?).
The outlets are all 3 wire outlets, but NONE of them have 3 wires, ie no
ground wire going to any of the outlets.

If you have an
unfinished basement and attic, running new wire through the walls will
be a lot easier. You could just rewire the outlets that you need to do
but you'll be doing a minimum of the entire circuit back to the junction
box (which I presume is also the old screw-in fuses rather than circuit
breakers).

It has both breakers and screw in fuses actually. The main box has all the
breakers, and then a smaller box to the side of it houses about 6 glass
fuses.
There's also small junction boxes for 240V (stove and dryer) outlets (2x
fuses and a large switch).

You can still DIY provided you know how to do the rewiring
in the walls and back to the junction box, and do it right so it passes
the inspector's check.

It's acceptable (legal) to do this yourself ? I have no problem doing it,
just wasn't sure the extent of what was legal to DIY and what required a
licensed contractor.

Chris


AFAIK, you can DIY but it still has to pass inspection.

Look on the bright side, since it has wiring already it is a
lot easier, you can use the existing wiring to pull the new
wiring through the walls... just eat your wheaties every
morning.

Skeleton Man wrote:

Hi all,

I just discovered today that none of the outlets in my house are grounded.
The house is literally 100 years old, and the wiring probably 50 years. At
first I thought one outlet was screwy, so I tried a few more, and none of
them grounded.

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY
ashion - calling in an electrician to re-wire the house is out of the
question)

We have metal radiators in every room, but I'm not sure if they are attached
to ground anywhere.

The radiators should be grounded because they are connected to the underground pipes coming into the house. The only way they could not be grounded is if there is a section of PVC pipe somewhere between the radiator system and the water service.

Another idea was to run a heavy guage ground wire from
the outlet into the dirt crawlspace in the basement.

Test methods for checking ground:

a) Surge protector has a ground-ok light: no light = no ground
b) Smart-UPS has an error light for wiring fault, this stays lit
c) DMM reads no potentional between live and ground (should be ~110V right?)

Right.

While I'm at it, is it ok to connect UPS to surge protector ? (ie. Supply -
Surge protector - UPS - Load)

Yes.

Chris

--
Mike Walsh

"Skeleton Man" wrote:
Hi all,

I just discovered today that none of the outlets in my house are grounded.
The house is literally 100 years old, and the wiring probably 50 years. At
first I thought one outlet was screwy, so I tried a few more, and none of
them grounded.

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY
ashion - calling in an electrician to re-wire the house is out of the
question)

I had the same situation in my house, at least in the computer rooms. I
ended up drilling a small hole in the baseboard behind the drywall, and ran
a 14gauge solid copper wire from each outlet to a ground clamp on the
incoming (cast iron) water pipe.

Aside from crawling under the house, the most work was fixing the patch in
the drywall (and that's not really that big of a deal).

Jon

On Feb 26, 9:24 am, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
"Skeleton Man" wrote:
Hi all,

I just discovered today that none of the outlets in my house are grounded.
The house is literally 100 years old, and the wiring probably 50 years. At
first I thought one outlet was screwy, so I tried a few more, and none of
them grounded.

How do I safely ground at least one or two outlets ? (in a safe DIY
ashion - calling in an electrician to re-wire the house is out of the
question)

I had the same situation in my house, at least in the computer rooms. I
ended up drilling a small hole in the baseboard behind the drywall, and ran
a 14gauge solid copper wire from each outlet to a ground clamp on the
incoming (cast iron) water pipe.

Aside from crawling under the house, the most work was fixing the patch in
the drywall (and that's not really that big of a deal).

Jon

That is fine and should work for a few outlets - but what about the
rest of the house? If nothing there is grounded at all then this
sounds like a major potential fire hazard to me. It might be an
electrocution hazard too.

Boris.

On Feb 26, 9:35*am, Boris Epstein wrote:
That is fine and should work for a few outlets - but what about the
rest of the house? If nothing there is grounded at all then this
sounds like a major potential fire hazard to me. It might be an
electrocution hazard too.

Install GFCI breakers. Safety problem solved. This must be done on
circuits that serve all bathrooms - not even debateable. Also should
be installed on kitchen circuits.

Grounding is not for fire prevention.

Grounding to pipes is not acceptable. Safety ground wires must have
a dedicated connection to the breaker box.