Windows 7/Dream PC 2006 suddenly shutsdown during COH1 and COH2 beta.

"Paul" wrote in message ...

Skybuck Flying wrote:
"
amps on rails are unspecified...
BULL****!
ALL ATX spec power supplies have declarations of what EACH and EVERY
rail supplies.
If you are unfamiliar with what the terminology refers to, you should
ask.
"

I checked the box... nothing in the box... nothing on the box... at least
the seasonic box mentioned it... but not the ocz

Maybe I have the manual in the other motherboard box, that's right...

Ok you been usefull.. me go find the manual

Here are the specs for you:

For the +12v rail the ampere is max 20 A ! and minimum 0.5 A

I am not stupid you know...

I checked these numbers ofcourse... before I bought it ! DUH...

At least to power my old 7900 GTX cards.. which I dont use anymore...

And surely a mere GT 520 won't exceed 7900 GTX cards on the ampere front ?
come on ?! =D

Hihihi you hilarius ! =D

"
A select few power supplies, put the label on the wrong side
of the supply. I don't know if OCZ has ever done that, but
it has happened on other brands.

Download the product brief, from OCZ, for the model in question.
A representation of the label sticker, is included here, with numbers.

http://ocz.com/consumer/download/pro...duct_brief.pdf

Paul
"

ZT is a different model (it has higher amperes).

I have mod X stream... got the manual lieing right in front of me ! =D

Bye,
Skybuck.

Well "fok me" (not literally )

The GT 520 actually requires 18 amperes ?! Holy fok ?!

And the power supply only delivers 20 amperes max ?!

So the theory that the GT 520 might go a bit over 20 seams reasonable...

I think we might have found our culprit ?!

FOOOOOOOOOK.

Why the fok does GT 520 need 18 amperes ?!?!?!?!?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

Skybuck Flying wrote:
Well "fok me" (not literally )

The GT 520 actually requires 18 amperes ?! Holy fok ?!

And the power supply only delivers 20 amperes max ?!

So the theory that the GT 520 might go a bit over 20 seams reasonable...

I think we might have found our culprit ?!

FOOOOOOOOOK.

Why the fok does GT 520 need 18 amperes ?!?!?!?!?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.


29 watts divided by 12 volts equals 2.4 amps.
That's approximate, because the video card is
also connected to 3.3V and draws a couple watts
from that. It draws not more than 2.4 Amps.

So can your power supply handle 2.4 amps from the 12V rail.

I think so.

The "imaginative" current rating in the documentation,
is an estimate of the *total system current* . And there's
no way they can guess that with any accuracy. But you
can work it out for yourself, if you want. (Work out
power requirements for each component, add together.)

Paul

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:45:33 -0400, Skybuck Flying wrote:

Well "fok me" (not literally )
The GT 520 actually requires 18 amperes ?! Holy fok ?!
And the power supply only delivers 20 amperes max ?!
So the theory that the GT 520 might go a bit over 20 seams reasonable...

Especially as there are other devices pulling +12V power.

I think we might have found our culprit ?!
FOOOOOOOOOK.
Why the fok does GT 520 need 18 amperes ?!?!?!?!?!?

Heh, the GeForce 9600 GT requires 26. That's why I recognized the
problem. Had a power supply that was rated for 24 amps on the
+12V rail. Had spontaneous reboots and shutdowns, with no log
messages, or obvious causes. Figured out it was the ps when adding
a third usb device forced an immediate shutdown.

Wouldn't boot with three usb devices connected. Any two of the three,
was ok, but not all three.

Replaced the ps with a 750 watt unit with 52 amps on the +12V rail,
and it's been working fine since then.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)

Skybuck Flying wrote:
Hello,

I was just beta testing Company of Heroes 2 Beta, my third game... and
in the midst of the game... suddenly BOOM... computer shuts down !

I have seen the same behaviour in Company of Heroes 1.

So first I thought it might have been a remote attack onto the network
card, perhaps a shutdown message.

But now I am also starting to believe it might be an NVIDIA Graphics
Driver problem... for the GT 520.

I updated that driver not so long ago, ever since... 2 system shutdowns
have happened... quite weird.

It could ofcourse also be a hardware problem or maybe GSM interference
or whatever... seems somewhat unlikely... usually my PC works well the
last two years or so.

Just putting this out there as a warning to others that these drivers
might be bad.

Then again... Winfast is not the greatest motherboard in the world and
quite old.

I also managed to crash the computer by running my corewars simulator
and enabling sound... but that probably has to do with bugs in sound
driver or windows itself, probably unrelated.

First I shall mention the current drivers and then try to update them to
hope to solve this shutdown from occuring.

(There was a kernel-power event in the event log indicating suddenly
powerloss ?!? Could also be a brief moment of power loss ? I did not
notice any light flickering... maybe denon receiver has some dust build
up... I ll try and blow out a bit.).

I did notice a few spider slings here and there... could be a spider
causing a short circuit... hope it doesnt fry me I just blew
something off the receiver... a little dust ball... oh well.

So far had 1 game vs ai won, 2 games against people, first game I got
kicked because pc too slow, second game power drop.. this could ruin my
war/general reputation hopefully this problem is solved soon... so me
gonna try to solve it now
(so far playing at 1024x786 at lowest settings allowed me to keep in the
game... )

Current drivers:

for gt 520:

285.62-desktop-win7-winvista-64bit-english-whql.exe

for amd x2-3800+ cpu:

unknown...

Bye,
Skybuck.








Perhaps you mistakenly have one of the 'crash-me' flags in the BIOS
config set?
....if it is one of _those_ chipsets...

Have fun trying all the different combinations...
And if that does not work, try again with all available
versions/combinations of GFX/chipset drivers etc...

David W. Hodgins wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:45:33 -0400, Skybuck Flying
wrote:

Well "fok me" (not literally )
The GT 520 actually requires 18 amperes ?! Holy fok ?!
And the power supply only delivers 20 amperes max ?!
So the theory that the GT 520 might go a bit over 20 seams reasonable...

Especially as there are other devices pulling +12V power.

I think we might have found our culprit ?!
FOOOOOOOOOK.
Why the fok does GT 520 need 18 amperes ?!?!?!?!?!?

Heh, the GeForce 9600 GT requires 26. That's why I recognized the
problem. Had a power supply that was rated for 24 amps on the
+12V rail. Had spontaneous reboots and shutdowns, with no log
messages, or obvious causes. Figured out it was the ps when adding
a third usb device forced an immediate shutdown.

Wouldn't boot with three usb devices connected. Any two of the three,
was ok, but not all three.

Replaced the ps with a 750 watt unit with 52 amps on the +12V rail,
and it's been working fine since then.

Regards, Dave Hodgins


OMG. The legend of Zelda lives on :-(

Whacking great power supplies are not required.

Intelligence is required !

Think about it. Examine the evidence.

"Wouldn't boot with three usb devices connected.
Any two of the three, was ok, but not all three."

On modern systems, USB bus power comes from the +5VSB rail.
The power supply label may list

+5VSB @ 2A

or it might show

+5VSB @ 3A

When you have a problem with the system falling over, and
the problem seems to be related to the number of USB bus
loads, then the problem is hinting at the +5VSB rating,
not the +12V rating. A 750W supply, has a *huge* 12V rating,
but none of that huge rating is of any consequence, if
the +5VSB was only 2A. It's like a weightlifter with
huge biceps, and tiny thin ankles. You decided, to
"make your biceps bigger", by buying a 750W supply.
In fact, the reason you fell over, was your "ankles
were too small". You're looking for a limitation
in the wrong place. The limitation was elsewhere.
If +5VSB is overloaded, and the output drops out,
the entire system shuts off in response.

How do I research these things ? With a clamp-on DC ammeter.
That allows measuring each DC current flow, and determining
current system state.

It is highly unlikely the Geforce 9600 is "drawing 26 amps".
When NVidia quotes a ridiculous number like that, it is
the sum total of:

CPU power (draws from 12V rail) CPU_watts / 12V = CPU amps
Video card (draws mostly from 12V rail) For Skybuck, it is 2.4 amps
Hard drive motor current, about 12V @ 0.6A per drive
Optical drive, about 12V @ 1.0A when media is inserted
Cooling fans, current draw is printed on fan hub, 0.1 amps

You can work out these numbers, and you'll soon see
that your system doesn't even come close to "26 amps".

This is why I recommend calculating the numbers, for
each rail, and working it out for yourself.

I *hate* when people buy power supplies in ignorance.

You can use a power supply sizing web site. At least
one of the sites is getting closer to doing the calculation
properly. The first sites offering this service (doing
the calculation for you), were off by a factor of 2.

I also do calculations on demand for people, when the need
arises. Once you've determined the size, added a
small amount of margin (say 30% margin on 12V rail),
that should be plenty. Even my calculation is
relatively conservative. For example, the boiler
plate value on my optical drive, is 1.5A (2.5A on
Blu Ray). But using my clamp-on ammeter, I checked
one optical drive here, and with media in the
tray it was 1.0 amps. Measurements can add some
refinement to the calculations.

Let's work some CPU numbers, and see how conservative
they are.

I have a 65W CPU in my backup computer system.

The basic calculation is 65W / 12V = 5.42 amps

That's the amount of 12V current, to supply an
estimated 65W TDP for the processor.

The VCore power converter, is a switching power
supply. It is not 100% efficient. To hint that
is the case, when I do power calculations for
people, I pretend the efficiency is 90%. The
actual figure could be 80% or 85%, it's really
hard to guess. So I use a figure like 90%, to
show the conversion is not 100% efficient. Now
my estimate of CPU current becomes

5.42 amps / 0.90 eff = 6.02 amps

Now, let's study the actual processor. I place the
clamp-on ammeter around the two yellow wires of the
ATX12V 2x2 square connector.

65W CPU (E4700 dual core) - should be 6.02 amps

System idle - current flow 1.1 amps
Run Prime95 100% loading - current flow 3.0 amps

So my E4700 only uses 36 watts flat out (12 volts times 3 amps).
Historically, some of the older S478 (Northwood) processors,
they came very close to their TDP value. Some of the
Core2 processors, the lower end ones, were well under
their TDP rating. My E8400, I think it might have
weighed in around 43 watts or so.

Consequently, when I do a power calc, and I use TDP
as an estimate, it may still be over-estimating the
current draw. Neither of my two processors, draws
the TDP value of 65W.

For Skybuck, his system power draw is 200W. There is
no need for a 750W or 1200W supply, they're just
a waste of money.

And don't forget, that all the rails count. Even
if you have a gazillion watt supply, as long as the
motherboard makers insist on running all the USB bus
power from +5VSB, and the power supplies have no more
than 3 amps to offer, there will be instances of
systems shutting off because of it. On the older
motherboards, a series of jumper plugs on the motherboard,
allowed you to run some USB ports from +5V (main rail,
good for perhaps 20 to 30 amps). Instead of the tiny
+5VSB supply. On modern systems, they stripped the
gold header pins, to save $0.10 per system, leaving
a disaster to await, if too much USB loading is present.

*******

A Kill-O-Watt meter is cheap, and allows you to bound
what your PC is doing. If Skybuck owned one of these,
he could see his system power vary from 80W when the
system was idle, to perhaps 200W when gaming. This
would be immediate evidence, that a 750W or 1200W
supply would be a total waste. These are cheap, and
can tell you whether you're even getting close to the
thermal limit of the ATX supply.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internation...ds=kill-o-watt

When you want to study system power usage, at the
main ATX cables, you use a clamp-on ammeter to get
the amps. Some clamp-on meters, measure AC amps only,
and are used by central air conditioning installers.
My meter, measures both DC amps and AC amps. And the
PC has DC amps on the major DC outputs of the supply.

http://www.extech.com/instruments/re.../380947_UM.pdf

The benefits of that meter, versus a conventional ammeter.

1) No need to cut any wires to measure current. Simply
place the jaws around the wires and measure.
2) Meter automatically sums the current in a series of
wires. Clamp the jaws around the two yellow wires on
the ATX12V 2x2 CPU power connector. The magnetic fields
around the wires add (as the current flows in the same
direction in each wire). That's how I can measure the CPU
consumption.
3) The meter uses the Hall Effect, to do the measurement.
The meter can measure huge currents, with no thermal
effects. The meter doesn't get hot. Conventional multimeters
are limited, by the shunt resister inside the meter
overheating. That's why a conventional meter has a
fuse inline, which may blow if you overdo it. My clamp-on
meter doesn't have that limitation. For example, I've
measured the starter motor current on my car, at around
120 amps (defective). The meter hardly even notices.
Since the meter has "peak detection", I can catch the
peaks of the starter motor consumption.

I use the 40A DC range, for "inside the PC" work.
I used the 400A DC range, for working on my car.
I use the 40A AC range, when checking my central air.

A more sensitive DC range would be nice on that meter,
but I can live with it.

HTH,
Paul

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 01:47:27 -0400, Paul wrote:

For Skybuck, his system power draw is 200W. There is
no need for a 750W or 1200W supply, they're just
a waste of money.


YOU ARE AN IDIOT. THAT IS WAHT THE SUPPLY IS RATED AT FULLY LOADED ON
ALL RAILS.

But in reality one rail IS pushed nearly to it's max. My mini ATX
won't even consider booting with a supply of less than 300W, and even
that one sometimes fails to have it POST up.

I'll bet his system uses more than the number you declared.

MrTallyman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 01:47:27 -0400, Paul wrote:

For Skybuck, his system power draw is 200W. There is
no need for a 750W or 1200W supply, they're just
a waste of money.


YOU ARE AN IDIOT. THAT IS WAHT THE SUPPLY IS RATED AT FULLY LOADED ON
ALL RAILS.

But in reality one rail IS pushed nearly to it's max. My mini ATX
won't even consider booting with a supply of less than 300W, and even
that one sometimes fails to have it POST up.

I'll bet his system uses more than the number you declared.

The supply rating, is the maximum value it can provide.
At any instant, the power provided can vary from zero
to the maximum value. If you draw more than the maximum
value, the supply overheats (or OCP) and turns off.

When you use a 750W supply, it does not draw 750W all the
time. The power company bill does not reflect the 750W value.
What it does reflect, is the real usage of power.

Skybucks components draw roughly 200W, by calculation.
200W is a value less than 450W max, of a 450W supply.
Therefore, the supply remains running.

The label of the supply, is actually very informative.
Every number on there means something. The numbers
are not there for window dressing.

Not only does the overall supply have a maximum power
rating (thermal limit perhaps). The supply also has
current flow limits (when the load is unbalanced on
the multiple rails). So it's possible to tip over
a 750W supply, merely by drawing 20W from the 5V @ 3A
max rail. The necessary info is on that label.

The legend of Zelda lives on.

Do the analysis.

This is not a monster truck rally. It's something
you can work out for yourself, using nothing
more than a four function calculator. You can
buy just the right power supply for the job,
and have money left over for beer at the end
of the week.

Paul

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:15:43 -0400, Paul wrote:


The supply rating, is the maximum value it can provide.
At any instant,


No ****, you retarded ****. I do not need a primer. I designed built
power supplies for a living for years.

I know exactly what the declaration is.

YOU are the one who has the problem.

And you know ****-all nothing about "skybuck" or his problem(s)

Snipped more stupid ****

Not only does the overall supply have a maximum power
rating (thermal limit perhaps). .

More proof that you are clueless.

Power supplies are rated to deliver their stated voltage into the
stated loading level at 100% duty, always on.

Any further loading results in a reduced regulated voltage level or an
increased PARD or noise figure. Both of which are unacceptable on a
"power" "supply" meant to power a specific digital device.

So even if the meter still reads 5 Volts, it will not be within the
noise figure spec at all.

snipped more

Not only does the overall supply have a maximum power
rating (thermal limit perhaps). The supply also has
current flow limits (when the load is unbalanced on
the multiple rails). So it's possible to tip over
a 750W supply, merely by drawing 20W from the 5V @ 3A
max rail. The necessary info is on that label.


You are an idiot.

There is no such term used in the industry.
You mother was "tipped over".

A 15 watt rail cannot deliver 20W regardless of the loading on the
other rails, you stupid ditz!.

YOU cannot "work out" anything with or without your calculator
and you kill-a-watt device.

and YOU probably never ever had a system where you actually taxed the
video card to its limits.

Ever run the CUDA app over at seti@home for a few units worth?

Yeah... you know all about "power draw". NOT!

I think I found the cause of this.

It's actually a feature of the winfast motherboard.

I think it shuts down if the CPU reaches the threshold of 50 degrees celcius
as set in the bios.

I don't know yet how it exactly works... there is also a tolerance of 5...

Hmmm...

Kinda funny.

So it's overheat protection

Bye,
Skybuck.