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#11
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"David LeBrun" wrote in message
.rogers.com snip ... lapping the heatsink ... Some folks think I'm nuts for doing this. But I've seen even new heat sinks with copper contact bases that look like they're used. There's something really satisfying about getting a mirror finish that makes excellent. Of course, I've seen where someone decided if a wee bit of thermal transfer paste is good then lots is better and not realize they've reduced the rate of heat transfer. -- __________________________________________________ __________ ** Share with others. Post replies in the newsgroup. ** If present, remove all "-nix" from my email address. __________________________________________________ __________ |
#12
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:57:01 GMT, "Vanguard"
wrote: And that means more current is drawn on the input side, right? Yes Dave |
#13
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This one was a definite ameteur...seated the old cpu in the new board
using the existing heat transfer pad that was originally on the boxed heatsink! Combine that with a ton of dust in it and a fan with a bad bearing...it soooo sad its actually funny! Dave |
#14
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"kony" wrote in message ... On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:12:09 GMT, "Vanguard" wrote: "David LeBrun" wrote in message e.rogers.com snip ... lapping the heatsink ... Some folks think I'm nuts for doing this. But I've seen even new heat sinks with copper contact bases that look like they're used. There's something really satisfying about getting a mirror finish that makes excellent. Of course, I've seen where someone decided if a wee bit of thermal transfer paste is good then lots is better and not realize they've reduced the rate of heat transfer. That's not nuts... nuts is when you use polishing compound to lap down that small laser-etched dot pattern in the corner of an Athlon XP core. :-) Dave How about sanding down the small components on top or better yet the core itself...i mean really if you want good contact grind that sucker so its flush with the board!!! (I think I need sleep) |
#15
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The plug-in UPS serves one primary function. It protects data from power problems. It does not protect hardware. Did you read the long list of exemptions attached to that warranty? Good luck if you need to have that warranty honored. Lets see... "This warranty does not protect against acts of god (other than lightning) such as flood, earthquake, wind, war, vandalism, theft, normal-use wear and tear, erosion, depletion, obsolescence, abuse, non-authorized program or system, or equipment modifications or alteration." "All products must be plugged directly into a power source and must not be daisy-chained together in serial fashion with other UPS, power strips, surge protectors or extension cords. Any such installation voids this warranty." "This warranty will not cover claims for damage resulting from telephone or CATV line transients unless the equipment is properly connected to one of the UPS models that offer telephone line protection. This warranty will not cover claims for damage to connected equipment resulting from coaxial line transients." "This warranty is null and void if the unit was improperly installed, altered in any way, tampered with, or improperly maintained (including, without limitation, the replacement of depleted batteries when indicated)." "This warranty is null and void if the repair or replacement of the damaged connected equipment is covered under a manufacturer's warranty." Plus the miriad of terms about data loss and who/when the claim is made and any inspections that may be required at their determination. The only way into the system not protected by the UPS is via the speakers which are plugged into a "surge supressor" and via the A/V dongle which connects my satellite receiver to my vid card...the receiver has coax running from the dish (which is properly grounded). I have to assume that these things are ligit considering all the laws about false advertising and consumer goods etc etc. I don't usually run my equipment during a t-storm so lightning isn't my concern. Its more for protection from outages...the "data protection" you mentioned...and other anomalies from the utility company. But the just have to better than plugging this stuff directly into the wall right? Dave. |
#16
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Newsgroups have these stories often:
Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV" I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS. I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of their product installed next to the fax. They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting. I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and never got the courtesy of a reply. If you believe a warranty proves quality, then a superior warranty also proves a Hyundai is more reliable than Toyota and Honda. Warranties never proof anything technical. In surge protector, the best protectors have no warranty. Proof of effectiveness is found in basic science. That science has long been proven repeatedly since the 1930s. Appliances such as computer power supplies already contain effective protection as posted earlier with that list of voltages. But that protection may be overwhelmed if a transient is not earthed before it can enter a building. Therefore effective protection is located at the service entrance. In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS. So they forget to even mention which type of transients they protect from. That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts. David LeBrun wrote: Lets see... "This warranty does not protect against acts of god (other than lightning) such as flood, earthquake, wind, war, vandalism, theft, normal-use wear and tear, erosion, depletion, obsolescence, abuse, non-authorized program or system, or equipment modifications or alteration." "All products must be plugged directly into a power source and must not be daisy-chained together in serial fashion with other UPS, power strips, surge protectors or extension cords. Any such installation voids this warranty." "This warranty will not cover claims for damage resulting from telephone or CATV line transients unless the equipment is properly connected to one of the UPS models that offer telephone line protection. This warranty will not cover claims for damage to connected equipment resulting from coaxial line transients." "This warranty is null and void if the unit was improperly installed, altered in any way, tampered with, or improperly maintained (including, without limitation, the replacement of depleted batteries when indicated)." "This warranty is null and void if the repair or replacement of the damaged connected equipment is covered under a manufacturer's warranty." Plus the miriad of terms about data loss and who/when the claim is made and any inspections that may be required at their determination. The only way into the system not protected by the UPS is via the speakers which are plugged into a "surge supressor" and via the A/V dongle which connects my satellite receiver to my vid card...the receiver has coax running from the dish (which is properly grounded). I have to assume that these things are ligit considering all the laws about false advertising and consumer goods etc etc. I don't usually run my equipment during a t-storm so lightning isn't my concern. Its more for protection from outages...the "data protection" you mentioned...and other anomalies from the utility company. But the just have to better than plugging this stuff directly into the wall right? Dave. |
#17
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In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance
directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS. That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Really depends on the UPS that you get. If you get the cheapies that simply shunt the AC from the input to the output, maybe with some line conditioning, then you are still susceptible to line problems (depending on how good in the line conditioning). If you get a UPS that generates the output power then you are further protected. If you get a UPS that has an isolating transformer (which has to be huge and heavy because of the current demands and which then by necessity has to generate the output power) then you are the most protected. I also prefer to get one that has a true sinusoidal output. You can get a UPS like you describe just to protect your OS from being shut down hard. You can pay more that provide surge protection and line conditioning. Or you can pay a lot for one that isolates, generates, and provides very clean output. Obviously the best way to determine how well any line protection is working is to get an oscilloscope that you can connect to your PC to record the source of your power. Hey, there's the next that I need. |
#18
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Ok...I am not disputing the science behind all this...I couldn't even
begin to... My intent when I started this thread was to get people's experiences with power related death to components because I was simply curious why the cpu, memory and video card (items which I would expect to go first) survived when other components (which I thought were more durable) failed. I agree with you 100% that a UPS protects data as they have saved my stuff on numerous occasions. The technical details, physics or electrical engineering aspects of this is all over my head. In a nutshell, would I be correct in saying that a good UPS would be one where the connected equipment is always running from battery power and that the battery power is always being recharged? and that most if not all consumer/retail products do not provide this function? I thought I had a decent handle on what was going on with all this but you've proven my ignorance. Dave. "w_tom" wrote in message ... Newsgroups have these stories often: Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV" I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS. I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of their product installed next to the fax. They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting. I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and never got the courtesy of a reply. If you believe a warranty proves quality, then a superior warranty also proves a Hyundai is more reliable than Toyota and Honda. Warranties never proof anything technical. In surge protector, the best protectors have no warranty. Proof of effectiveness is found in basic science. That science has long been proven repeatedly since the 1930s. Appliances such as computer power supplies already contain effective protection as posted earlier with that list of voltages. But that protection may be overwhelmed if a transient is not earthed before it can enter a building. Therefore effective protection is located at the service entrance. In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS. So they forget to even mention which type of transients they protect from. That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts. David LeBrun wrote: Lets see... "This warranty does not protect against acts of god (other than lightning) such as flood, earthquake, wind, war, vandalism, theft, normal-use wear and tear, erosion, depletion, obsolescence, abuse, non-authorized program or system, or equipment modifications or alteration." "All products must be plugged directly into a power source and must not be daisy-chained together in serial fashion with other UPS, power strips, surge protectors or extension cords. Any such installation voids this warranty." "This warranty will not cover claims for damage resulting from telephone or CATV line transients unless the equipment is properly connected to one of the UPS models that offer telephone line protection. This warranty will not cover claims for damage to connected equipment resulting from coaxial line transients." "This warranty is null and void if the unit was improperly installed, altered in any way, tampered with, or improperly maintained (including, without limitation, the replacement of depleted batteries when indicated)." "This warranty is null and void if the repair or replacement of the damaged connected equipment is covered under a manufacturer's warranty." Plus the miriad of terms about data loss and who/when the claim is made and any inspections that may be required at their determination. The only way into the system not protected by the UPS is via the speakers which are plugged into a "surge supressor" and via the A/V dongle which connects my satellite receiver to my vid card...the receiver has coax running from the dish (which is properly grounded). I have to assume that these things are ligit considering all the laws about false advertising and consumer goods etc etc. I don't usually run my equipment during a t-storm so lightning isn't my concern. Its more for protection from outages...the "data protection" you mentioned...and other anomalies from the utility company. But the just have to better than plugging this stuff directly into the wall right? Dave. |
#19
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Described is an expensive UPS system that ties up and uses
most system components constantly without any appreciable advantage. Better UPS systems simply run off of AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Battery backup system, that is more expensive to operate and that may more likely fail when needed, instead remains in standby. Then when backup power is required, different (unused) means provide the backup. For example, the telco switching station uses a battery backup system (with battery life expectancy now on the order of twenty years). The batteries in turn provide power until the backup generators can take over. But system runs directly off AC power almost constantly. Backup stays in reserve. Remote concentrators will run directly off of AC until power is lost, then must run at least 4 hours on internal battery backup. If power is lost for longer, a mobile generator is connected to maintain power. Again power directly from AC mains means less expense and the battery backup system is more likely to be 100% functional. Some plug-in UPSes output very dirty power when in battery backup mode. For example this one creates 120 VAC by outputting two 200 volt square waves with a 270 volt spike between those waves. Not very clean, possibility dangerous to small electric motors, but more than sufficient for a computer. Failures come from numerous sources. Too many are so brainwashed by advertising and urban myths that literally every failure must be a power surge. Most component failure is due to internal manufacturing defects. Since CPUs must not fail, then their manufacturing defects are avoided using statistical process control to remove the random human factor. Other requirements include very clean gases (gases are used to construct semiconductors) on the order of 99.9999% pure. Some manufacturers may only use 99.99% or 99.999% purity which accounts for some of their defects. Most failures are simply manufacturing defects. See the big stink about defective Taiwan electrolytic capacitors as but one example. ICs can be damaged by static electric shock - such as manufacturing defects in the factory or mishandling in distribution. A static electric shock today can mean electronic failure months later. Add a touch of counterfeiting parts. Heat is often over hyped as a reason for failure. When heat is associated with failure, failure really is a defective component whose problem was made obvious by higher temperature. But some humans must feel heat was a problem because that temperature, quite normal for a semiconductor, was too hot for human skin. Too many blame heat mostly due to ignorance of what is happening inside that semiconductor. Another reason for failure, for example, is cost controls. Transistor selected that was marginal for the task but that cost less. Insufficient experience with the design because some bean counter worries about his cash flow. Timing failure due to one unnoticed characteristic of the design. Noise because some bypass capacitor was not installed somewhere on a PC board. Power supply regulator can fail. But power supplies even 30 years ago had overvoltage protection circuits that made damage by regulator to motherboard, disk, etc practically impossible. However because so many today use price as their only specification, then many failures are directly traceable to that cost control mentality - the missing overvoltage protection that all power supplies must include - but that many do not. ICs have upper voltage limits. For example a 5 volt IC can be damaged by 9 volts. However when that same semiconductor becomes part of a system - ie motherboard - then the 'system' tends to make that IC more resilient. Components even inside the IC contribute to IC protection when IC becomes part of a 'system'. And when that motherboard is installed in a chassis, then that 'system' permits even 20,000 volt static shocks on case to not damage ICs. Depends on designer's knowledge. But the point is that ICs, so easily damaged by almost no voltage can withstand thousands without damage as they become part of a larger 'system'. Therein explains the more resilience in parts such as CPU and video controller when part of a bigger system. Infant mortality is but another failure mode. Therefore good system developers use burn-in testing. Many computer assemblers don't even know what burn-in testing is. The computer is put in a 100 degree room - upper end of normal operating temperature - and executes extensive diagnostics. Then computer is cooled to lowest normal temperature - typically just above freezing. More diagnostic testing. Process is then repeated. More extensive testing may also heat or cool computer to temperatures well above or below normal operating temperatures - but within spec and without power. Then temperature is taken back down to upper or lower operating temperature, powered up, and tested again. Burn-in testing not performed on every system but on a statistical processing basis. Defective components identified before it ships. Defective memory, that works intermittently at 70 degree room is quickly found by this testing method. Just some reasons why electronics fail. David LeBrun wrote: Ok...I am not disputing the science behind all this...I couldn't even begin to... My intent when I started this thread was to get people's experiences with power related death to components because I was simply curious why the cpu, memory and video card (items which I would expect to go first) survived when other components (which I thought were more durable) failed. I agree with you 100% that a UPS protects data as they have saved my stuff on numerous occasions. The technical details, physics or electrical engineering aspects of this is all over my head. In a nutshell, would I be correct in saying that a good UPS would be one where the connected equipment is always running from battery power and that the battery power is always being recharged? and that most if not all consumer/retail products do not provide this function? I thought I had a decent handle on what was going on with all this but you've proven my ignorance. Dave. |
#20
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Let's assume the $500 UPS that operates always from
the battery. AC mains recharge battery while battery runs inverter (AC power) into computer. But again, one must first understand, electrically, what a surge is. Destructive surges are common mode. Common mode transients cannot be absorbed by that battery. A common mode transient appears equally on both sides of battery. Battery sees no transient voltage as transient continues into and damages adjacent appliance. The battery would absorb a differential mode transient. But destructive transient are common mode which means earth ground is essential to provide protection. Earth ground is why the building wide UPS provides effective protection and why the plug-in UPS (any type) cannot provide such protection. Second, safety ground wire that connects AC mains surge directly to computer motherboard. Surge protector circuit on front end of UPS simply shunts that destructive surge onto green safety ground wire to bypasses the UPS & computer power supply. Safety ground wire connects transient directly to computer electronics. This wire that bypasses UPS is a most common source of transients that damage computer modems. Third, we need not see how surges damage by following circuits. Where is the numerical specification for that UPS that claims common mode surge protection? Please cite that specification. In the meantime a long and well proven principle of surge protection remains. This principle has existed and been repeatedly proven since before WWII for good reason. Surge protection is about earthing a surge. A surge protector (even the one inside that UPS that is actually same circuit found in power strip surge protectors) is only as effective as its earth ground. Four, if that more expensive UPS provides galvanic isolation from surge damage, then same galvanic isolation that exists in PC power supplies would provide the protection - making that UPS protection redundant - providing no additional protection. Computer power supplies already have effective protection. But that existing protection assumes the incoming surge will be earthed before it can enter the building. A plug-in UPS provides no additional protection because it does not have that essential 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. Many reasons for why a more expensive UPS may not be better protection. One - common mode transients are not even seen by the battery. Two - surge can bypass the UPS completely using safety ground wire. Three - UPS does not even claim to provide such protection. Four - any protection provided by that UPS already exists in the power supply. Bottom line remains. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Furthermore, that earthing protection is so inexpensive. Plug-in UPS has no dedicated connection to earth ground in contrast to what a serious building wide UPSes provides. Plug-in UPS avoids any mention of earthing so that customer will not ask embarrassing questions such as, "what about common mode transient protection?". Even dirty (not sinusoidal) power from a step wave UPS does not adversely affect electronics. The one type of electrical 'dirt' that is so destructive is the common mode transient - what a plug-in UPS does not even claim to protect from. Using the 'purer' sine wave provides nothing useful to a computer's life expectancy. Vanguard wrote: In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS. That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Really depends on the UPS that you get. If you get the cheapies that simply shunt the AC from the input to the output, maybe with some line conditioning, then you are still susceptible to line problems depending on how good in the line conditioning). If you get a UPS that generates the output power then you are further protected. If you get a UPS that has an isolating transformer (which has to be huge and heavy because of the current demands and which then by necessity has to generate the output power) then you are the most protected. I also prefer to get one that has a true sinusoidal output. You can get a UPS like you describe just to protect your OS from being shut down hard. You can pay more that provide surge protection and line conditioning. Or you can pay a lot for one that isolates, generates, and provides very clean output. Obviously the best way to determine how well any line protection is working is to get an oscilloscope that you can connect to your PC to record the source of your power. Hey, there's the next that I need. |
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