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  #11  
Old August 30th 03, 09:12 PM
Vanguard
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"David LeBrun" wrote in message
.rogers.com
snip
... lapping the heatsink ...


Some folks think I'm nuts for doing this. But I've seen even new heat
sinks with copper contact bases that look like they're used. There's
something really satisfying about getting a mirror finish that makes
excellent. Of course, I've seen where someone decided if a wee bit of
thermal transfer paste is good then lots is better and not realize
they've reduced the rate of heat transfer.


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  #12  
Old August 30th 03, 11:12 PM
kony
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:57:01 GMT, "Vanguard"
wrote:


And that means more current is drawn on the input side, right?


Yes


Dave
  #13  
Old September 1st 03, 01:39 AM
David LeBrun
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This one was a definite ameteur...seated the old cpu in the new board
using the existing heat transfer pad that was originally on the boxed
heatsink! Combine that with a ton of dust in it and a fan with a bad
bearing...it soooo sad its actually funny!

Dave

  #14  
Old September 1st 03, 01:41 AM
David LeBrun
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Default


"kony" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:12:09 GMT, "Vanguard"
wrote:

"David LeBrun" wrote in message
e.rogers.com
snip
... lapping the heatsink ...


Some folks think I'm nuts for doing this. But I've seen even new

heat
sinks with copper contact bases that look like they're used.

There's
something really satisfying about getting a mirror finish that

makes
excellent. Of course, I've seen where someone decided if a wee bit

of
thermal transfer paste is good then lots is better and not realize
they've reduced the rate of heat transfer.


That's not nuts... nuts is when you use polishing compound to lap

down
that small laser-etched dot pattern in the corner of an Athlon XP
core. :-)



Dave

How about sanding down the small components on top or better yet
the core itself...i mean really if you want good contact grind that
sucker so its flush with the board!!! (I think I need sleep)

  #15  
Old September 1st 03, 02:08 AM
David LeBrun
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Posts: n/a
Default


The plug-in UPS serves one primary function. It protects
data from power problems. It does not protect hardware. Did
you read the long list of exemptions attached to that
warranty? Good luck if you need to have that warranty
honored.


Lets see...
"This warranty does not protect against acts of god (other than
lightning) such as flood, earthquake, wind, war, vandalism, theft,
normal-use wear and tear, erosion, depletion, obsolescence, abuse,
non-authorized program or system, or equipment modifications or
alteration."
"All products must be plugged directly into a power source and must
not be daisy-chained together in serial fashion with other UPS, power
strips, surge protectors or extension cords. Any such installation
voids this warranty."
"This warranty will not cover claims for damage resulting from
telephone or CATV line transients unless the equipment is properly
connected to one of the UPS models that offer telephone line
protection. This warranty will not cover claims for damage to
connected equipment resulting from coaxial line transients."
"This warranty is null and void if the unit was improperly installed,
altered in any way, tampered with, or improperly maintained
(including, without limitation, the replacement of depleted batteries
when indicated)."
"This warranty is null and void if the repair or replacement of the
damaged connected equipment is covered under a manufacturer's
warranty."

Plus the miriad of terms about data loss and who/when the claim is
made and any inspections that may be required at their determination.
The only way into the system not protected by the UPS is via the
speakers which are plugged into a "surge supressor" and via the A/V
dongle which connects my satellite receiver to my vid card...the
receiver has coax running from the dish (which is properly grounded).

I have to assume that these things are ligit considering all the laws
about false advertising and consumer goods etc etc. I don't usually
run my equipment during a t-storm so lightning isn't my concern. Its
more for protection from outages...the "data protection" you
mentioned...and other anomalies from the utility company. But the
just have to better than plugging this stuff directly into the wall
right?

Dave.

  #16  
Old September 1st 03, 08:08 AM
w_tom
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Posts: n/a
Default

Newsgroups have these stories often:
Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup
comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high
volume fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with
the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim.
I was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos
of their product installed next to the fax.
They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting.
I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer
service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and
never got the courtesy of a reply.


If you believe a warranty proves quality, then a superior
warranty also proves a Hyundai is more reliable than Toyota
and Honda. Warranties never proof anything technical. In
surge protector, the best protectors have no warranty. Proof
of effectiveness is found in basic science. That science has
long been proven repeatedly since the 1930s.

Appliances such as computer power supplies already contain
effective protection as posted earlier with that list of
voltages. But that protection may be overwhelmed if a
transient is not earthed before it can enter a building.
Therefore effective protection is located at the service
entrance. In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance
directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So
where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS. So they
forget to even mention which type of transients they protect
from.

That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data
protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.

David LeBrun wrote:
Lets see...
"This warranty does not protect against acts of god (other than
lightning) such as flood, earthquake, wind, war, vandalism, theft,
normal-use wear and tear, erosion, depletion, obsolescence, abuse,
non-authorized program or system, or equipment modifications or
alteration."
"All products must be plugged directly into a power source and must
not be daisy-chained together in serial fashion with other UPS, power
strips, surge protectors or extension cords. Any such installation
voids this warranty."
"This warranty will not cover claims for damage resulting from
telephone or CATV line transients unless the equipment is properly
connected to one of the UPS models that offer telephone line
protection. This warranty will not cover claims for damage to
connected equipment resulting from coaxial line transients."
"This warranty is null and void if the unit was improperly installed,
altered in any way, tampered with, or improperly maintained
(including, without limitation, the replacement of depleted batteries
when indicated)."
"This warranty is null and void if the repair or replacement of the
damaged connected equipment is covered under a manufacturer's
warranty."

Plus the miriad of terms about data loss and who/when the claim is
made and any inspections that may be required at their determination.
The only way into the system not protected by the UPS is via the
speakers which are plugged into a "surge supressor" and via the A/V
dongle which connects my satellite receiver to my vid card...the
receiver has coax running from the dish (which is properly grounded).

I have to assume that these things are ligit considering all the laws
about false advertising and consumer goods etc etc. I don't usually
run my equipment during a t-storm so lightning isn't my concern. Its
more for protection from outages...the "data protection" you
mentioned...and other anomalies from the utility company. But the
just have to better than plugging this stuff directly into the wall
right?

Dave.

  #17  
Old September 1st 03, 06:44 PM
Vanguard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance
directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So
where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS.

That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data
protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.


Really depends on the UPS that you get. If you get the cheapies that
simply shunt the AC from the input to the output, maybe with some line
conditioning, then you are still susceptible to line problems (depending
on how good in the line conditioning). If you get a UPS that generates
the output power then you are further protected. If you get a UPS that
has an isolating transformer (which has to be huge and heavy because of
the current demands and which then by necessity has to generate the
output power) then you are the most protected. I also prefer to get one
that has a true sinusoidal output. You can get a UPS like you describe
just to protect your OS from being shut down hard. You can pay more
that provide surge protection and line conditioning. Or you can pay a
lot for one that isolates, generates, and provides very clean output.
Obviously the best way to determine how well any line protection is
working is to get an oscilloscope that you can connect to your PC to
record the source of your power. Hey, there's the next that I need.


  #18  
Old September 1st 03, 09:22 PM
David LeBrun
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ok...I am not disputing the science behind all this...I couldn't even
begin to...

My intent when I started this thread was to get people's experiences
with power related death to components because I was simply curious
why the cpu, memory and video card (items which I would expect to go
first) survived when other components (which I thought were more
durable) failed. I agree with you 100% that a UPS protects data as
they have saved my stuff on numerous occasions.

The technical details, physics or electrical engineering aspects of
this is all over my head. In a nutshell, would I be correct in saying
that a good UPS would be one where the connected equipment is always
running from battery power and that the battery power is always being
recharged? and that most if not all consumer/retail products do not
provide this function? I thought I had a decent handle on what was
going on with all this but you've proven my ignorance.

Dave.

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Newsgroups have these stories often:
Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup
comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high
volume fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together

with
the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty

claim.
I was nice and polite and had everything documented including

photos
of their product installed next to the fax.
They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more

insulting.
I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied

customer
service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and
never got the courtesy of a reply.


If you believe a warranty proves quality, then a superior
warranty also proves a Hyundai is more reliable than Toyota
and Honda. Warranties never proof anything technical. In
surge protector, the best protectors have no warranty. Proof
of effectiveness is found in basic science. That science has
long been proven repeatedly since the 1930s.

Appliances such as computer power supplies already contain
effective protection as posted earlier with that list of
voltages. But that protection may be overwhelmed if a
transient is not earthed before it can enter a building.
Therefore effective protection is located at the service
entrance. In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance
directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So
where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS. So they
forget to even mention which type of transients they protect
from.

That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data
protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.

David LeBrun wrote:
Lets see...
"This warranty does not protect against acts of god (other than
lightning) such as flood, earthquake, wind, war, vandalism, theft,
normal-use wear and tear, erosion, depletion, obsolescence, abuse,
non-authorized program or system, or equipment modifications or
alteration."
"All products must be plugged directly into a power source and

must
not be daisy-chained together in serial fashion with other UPS,

power
strips, surge protectors or extension cords. Any such

installation
voids this warranty."
"This warranty will not cover claims for damage resulting from
telephone or CATV line transients unless the equipment is properly
connected to one of the UPS models that offer telephone line
protection. This warranty will not cover claims for damage to
connected equipment resulting from coaxial line transients."
"This warranty is null and void if the unit was improperly

installed,
altered in any way, tampered with, or improperly maintained
(including, without limitation, the replacement of depleted

batteries
when indicated)."
"This warranty is null and void if the repair or replacement of

the
damaged connected equipment is covered under a manufacturer's
warranty."

Plus the miriad of terms about data loss and who/when the claim is
made and any inspections that may be required at their

determination.
The only way into the system not protected by the UPS is via the
speakers which are plugged into a "surge supressor" and via the

A/V
dongle which connects my satellite receiver to my vid card...the
receiver has coax running from the dish (which is properly

grounded).

I have to assume that these things are ligit considering all the

laws
about false advertising and consumer goods etc etc. I don't

usually
run my equipment during a t-storm so lightning isn't my concern.

Its
more for protection from outages...the "data protection" you
mentioned...and other anomalies from the utility company. But the
just have to better than plugging this stuff directly into the

wall
right?

Dave.


  #19  
Old September 2nd 03, 01:57 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Described is an expensive UPS system that ties up and uses
most system components constantly without any appreciable
advantage. Better UPS systems simply run off of AC mains when
not in battery backup mode. Battery backup system, that is
more expensive to operate and that may more likely fail when
needed, instead remains in standby. Then when backup power is
required, different (unused) means provide the backup. For
example, the telco switching station uses a battery backup
system (with battery life expectancy now on the order of
twenty years). The batteries in turn provide power until the
backup generators can take over. But system runs directly off
AC power almost constantly. Backup stays in reserve.

Remote concentrators will run directly off of AC until power
is lost, then must run at least 4 hours on internal battery
backup. If power is lost for longer, a mobile generator is
connected to maintain power. Again power directly from AC
mains means less expense and the battery backup system is more
likely to be 100% functional.

Some plug-in UPSes output very dirty power when in battery
backup mode. For example this one creates 120 VAC by
outputting two 200 volt square waves with a 270 volt spike
between those waves. Not very clean, possibility dangerous to
small electric motors, but more than sufficient for a
computer.

Failures come from numerous sources. Too many are so
brainwashed by advertising and urban myths that literally
every failure must be a power surge. Most component failure
is due to internal manufacturing defects. Since CPUs must not
fail, then their manufacturing defects are avoided using
statistical process control to remove the random human
factor. Other requirements include very clean gases (gases
are used to construct semiconductors) on the order of 99.9999%
pure. Some manufacturers may only use 99.99% or 99.999%
purity which accounts for some of their defects. Most
failures are simply manufacturing defects. See the big stink
about defective Taiwan electrolytic capacitors as but one
example.

ICs can be damaged by static electric shock - such as
manufacturing defects in the factory or mishandling in
distribution. A static electric shock today can mean
electronic failure months later. Add a touch of
counterfeiting parts.

Heat is often over hyped as a reason for failure. When heat
is associated with failure, failure really is a defective
component whose problem was made obvious by higher
temperature. But some humans must feel heat was a problem
because that temperature, quite normal for a semiconductor,
was too hot for human skin. Too many blame heat mostly due to
ignorance of what is happening inside that semiconductor.

Another reason for failure, for example, is cost controls.
Transistor selected that was marginal for the task but that
cost less. Insufficient experience with the design because
some bean counter worries about his cash flow. Timing failure
due to one unnoticed characteristic of the design. Noise
because some bypass capacitor was not installed somewhere on a
PC board.

Power supply regulator can fail. But power supplies even 30
years ago had overvoltage protection circuits that made damage
by regulator to motherboard, disk, etc practically
impossible. However because so many today use price as their
only specification, then many failures are directly traceable
to that cost control mentality - the missing overvoltage
protection that all power supplies must include - but that
many do not.

ICs have upper voltage limits. For example a 5 volt IC can
be damaged by 9 volts. However when that same semiconductor
becomes part of a system - ie motherboard - then the 'system'
tends to make that IC more resilient. Components even inside
the IC contribute to IC protection when IC becomes part of a
'system'. And when that motherboard is installed in a
chassis, then that 'system' permits even 20,000 volt static
shocks on case to not damage ICs. Depends on designer's
knowledge. But the point is that ICs, so easily damaged by
almost no voltage can withstand thousands without damage as
they become part of a larger 'system'. Therein explains the
more resilience in parts such as CPU and video controller when
part of a bigger system.

Infant mortality is but another failure mode. Therefore
good system developers use burn-in testing. Many computer
assemblers don't even know what burn-in testing is. The
computer is put in a 100 degree room - upper end of normal
operating temperature - and executes extensive diagnostics.
Then computer is cooled to lowest normal temperature -
typically just above freezing. More diagnostic testing.
Process is then repeated. More extensive testing may also
heat or cool computer to temperatures well above or below
normal operating temperatures - but within spec and without
power. Then temperature is taken back down to upper or lower
operating temperature, powered up, and tested again.

Burn-in testing not performed on every system but on a
statistical processing basis. Defective components identified
before it ships. Defective memory, that works intermittently
at 70 degree room is quickly found by this testing method.

Just some reasons why electronics fail.

David LeBrun wrote:
Ok...I am not disputing the science behind all this...I couldn't even
begin to...

My intent when I started this thread was to get people's experiences
with power related death to components because I was simply curious
why the cpu, memory and video card (items which I would expect to go
first) survived when other components (which I thought were more
durable) failed. I agree with you 100% that a UPS protects data as
they have saved my stuff on numerous occasions.

The technical details, physics or electrical engineering aspects of
this is all over my head. In a nutshell, would I be correct in saying
that a good UPS would be one where the connected equipment is always
running from battery power and that the battery power is always being
recharged? and that most if not all consumer/retail products do not
provide this function? I thought I had a decent handle on what was
going on with all this but you've proven my ignorance.

Dave.

  #20  
Old September 2nd 03, 02:00 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Let's assume the $500 UPS that operates always from
the battery. AC mains recharge battery while battery runs
inverter (AC power) into computer. But again, one must first
understand, electrically, what a surge is. Destructive surges
are common mode. Common mode transients cannot be absorbed by
that battery. A common mode transient appears equally on both
sides of battery. Battery sees no transient voltage as
transient continues into and damages adjacent appliance. The
battery would absorb a differential mode transient. But
destructive transient are common mode which means earth ground
is essential to provide protection. Earth ground is why the
building wide UPS provides effective protection and why the
plug-in UPS (any type) cannot provide such protection.

Second, safety ground wire that connects AC mains surge
directly to computer motherboard. Surge protector circuit on
front end of UPS simply shunts that destructive surge onto
green safety ground wire to bypasses the UPS & computer power
supply. Safety ground wire connects transient directly to
computer electronics. This wire that bypasses UPS is a most
common source of transients that damage computer modems.

Third, we need not see how surges damage by following
circuits. Where is the numerical specification for that UPS
that claims common mode surge protection? Please cite that
specification.

In the meantime a long and well proven principle of surge
protection remains. This principle has existed and been
repeatedly proven since before WWII for good reason. Surge
protection is about earthing a surge. A surge protector (even
the one inside that UPS that is actually same circuit found in
power strip surge protectors) is only as effective as its
earth ground.

Four, if that more expensive UPS provides galvanic isolation
from surge damage, then same galvanic isolation that exists in
PC power supplies would provide the protection - making that
UPS protection redundant - providing no additional
protection. Computer power supplies already have effective
protection. But that existing protection assumes the incoming
surge will be earthed before it can enter the building. A
plug-in UPS provides no additional protection because it does
not have that essential 'less than 10 foot' connection to
earth ground.

Many reasons for why a more expensive UPS may not be better
protection. One - common mode transients are not even seen by
the battery. Two - surge can bypass the UPS completely using
safety ground wire. Three - UPS does not even claim to
provide such protection. Four - any protection provided by
that UPS already exists in the power supply.

Bottom line remains. A surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. Furthermore, that earthing protection is
so inexpensive. Plug-in UPS has no dedicated connection to
earth ground in contrast to what a serious building wide UPSes
provides. Plug-in UPS avoids any mention of earthing so
that customer will not ask embarrassing questions such as,
"what about common mode transient protection?".

Even dirty (not sinusoidal) power from a step wave UPS does
not adversely affect electronics. The one type of electrical
'dirt' that is so destructive is the common mode transient -
what a plug-in UPS does not even claim to protect from. Using
the 'purer' sine wave provides nothing useful to a computer's
life expectancy.

Vanguard wrote:

In the meantime, a plug-in UPS connects appliance
directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. So
where is the protection? Not from that plug-in UPS.

That plug-in UPS serves one primary function - data
protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.


Really depends on the UPS that you get. If you get the cheapies that
simply shunt the AC from the input to the output, maybe with some line
conditioning, then you are still susceptible to line problems
depending on how good in the line conditioning). If you get a UPS
that generates the output power then you are further protected. If
you get a UPS that has an isolating transformer (which has to be huge
and heavy because of the current demands and which then by necessity
has to generate the output power) then you are the most protected. I
also prefer to get one that has a true sinusoidal output. You can
get a UPS like you describe just to protect your OS from being shut
down hard. You can pay more that provide surge protection and line
conditioning. Or you can pay a lot for one that isolates, generates,
and provides very clean output.
Obviously the best way to determine how well any line protection is
working is to get an oscilloscope that you can connect to your PC to
record the source of your power. Hey, there's the next that I need.

 




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