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#1
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PCI-Express question...
Hi folks!
I am thinking of building myself a computer using, 1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU) 2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard) 3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram) 4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive) 5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's hardware guide, it is one of the best for now. As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is available, meaning 6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet on which one to use... The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with PCI-Express connection. The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology? I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature. Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will not provide any improvement in that perspective. Does PCI-Express have anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a revolutionary advancement over AGP slot? Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers. I like to hear about your input so that I can make better judgment on the issue as I am only guessing depending on what I read. Thanks. -- Ryan Atici |
#2
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The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. Correction: The question I have is that, on the Nvidia website, it says that Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. Sorry for the typo... |
#3
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Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in that
format. That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games. No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and 4x. Since you're building a new system.. it *may* be worth getting a PCI-Express system. Don't expect your system to be any faster than it would if an AGP version for gaming, however. PCI-Express (in the immediate future, again) will really only benefit people dealing with very large files (video editing, etc), or other bus-heavy activities, since the OTHER things in your system will benefit from the increased bandwidth of PCI-Express, not the videocard. Eventually, we may need PCI-Express, but even with today's fastest processors.. the 6800Ultras and ATI X800XTPE are still CPU-bound. A faster bus isn't going to fix that. Just my opinion, of course. "Ryan Atici" wrote in message ... The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. Correction: The question I have is that, on the Nvidia website, it says that Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. Sorry for the typo... |
#4
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RaceFace wrote:
Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in that format. That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games. No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and 4x. That may not be entirely accurate. Your statement is sort of accurate in and of itself, but PCI Express + Two NvIdia PCI Express cards running tandem is in the near future through their SLI technology. http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...12_174414.html |
#5
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"Ryan Atici" wrote in
: Hi folks! I am thinking of building myself a computer using, 1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU) 2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard) 3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram) 4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive) 5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's hardware guide, it is one of the best for now. As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is available, meaning 6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet on which one to use... The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with PCI-Express connection. AGP and PCI-Express are not compatible. You cannot put an AGP card into a PCI-Express slot and you can't put a PCI-Express card into an AGP slot. That being said, I would wait for a PCI-Express card. Your system is already new technology that will be apgradable for at least a couple of years. I am specifically refering to Socket-939. If you get an AGP card you may not be able to get a good upgrade card for more than another year if that long. Who knows how much longer AGP will last. Anybody know if ATI or NVIDIA are planning any new cards with AGP? If not then the 6800 or x800 may be the best card you'll ever put in an AGP system. AGP is a dying technology. If you can afford it, don't buy into something that will be gone when you want to upgrade. The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology? Yes. A PCI-Express card will require a x16 PCI-Express slot. I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature. That's correct. The PCI-Express video card will be x16 speed and the normal slots will be x1 speed to start. You cannot place a PCI-Express video card in a regular (x1) PCI-Express slot and you cannot place a PCI-Express video card in a non-PCI-Express PCI slot. (Old)PCI and PCI-Express are not compatible. Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will not provide any improvement in that perspective. Video bus bandwidth has traditionally outstripped CPU-GPU bandwidth requirements and PCI-Express is much faster than AGP so this will remain true with CPI-Express. For now PCI-Express will not offer anything new. Potentially the additional bandwidth, video and otherwise, will help system performance. I suspect that offering PCI-Express AND AGP is a 'pain in the rear' from an engineering stand point. I know I wouldn't want to have to support both of these busses on the same motherboard. So the obvious/expedient choice is to make all slots variants of PCI-Express. Besides, the hole point of PCI-Express is to replace the old PCI/AGP bus. Nobody wants to add another bus to the list they currently support. For now that means 1x PCI-Express slots for regular slots (modems, NIC's, soundcards, etc.) and x16 PCI-Express slots for video cards. Does PCI-Express have anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a revolutionary advancement over AGP slot? For now PCI-Express offers enigneers an easier time designing and building motherboards because of fewer lines to route. For consumers PCI-Express offers the best potential for upgrading their system in the future since regular PCI and AGP are going to become obsolete. For both PCI-Express offers the potential for higher performance systems in the future. Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers. I agree to a point but you should also consider what your options will be when you next need to upgrade. If, at upgrade time, you will not care about the cost of a new motherboard and video card (and maybe memory and cpu) to support PCI-Express then this is a none issue. If you will care about the cost of a new motherboard and video card then consider getting the new stuff now. |
#6
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"twobirds" wrote in message ... RaceFace wrote: Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in that format. That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games. No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and 4x. That may not be entirely accurate. Your statement is sort of accurate in and of itself, but PCI Express + Two NvIdia PCI Express cards running tandem is in the near future through their SLI technology. http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...12_174414.html Oooh, yah. That wonderful thing. If one 6800Ultra (heck, even 6800GTs in a lot of machines) is CPU-bound (on every machine out there), how is your CPU going to be able to feed two of them (even if it's feeding each half the stuff) quickly enough? The extra code needed to split up the data stream will surely take some CPU overhead as well. Their wonderful new implementation of SLI is just a way to get people to shell out huge amounts of money. In 2 years we may have a system that could take advantage of SLI, but not now. And the OP would have to buy a new motherboard anyway, because the next gen CPUs will have different pin layouts. Just my opinion. |
#7
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JS wrote:
"Ryan Atici" wrote in : Hi folks! I am thinking of building myself a computer using, 1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU) 2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard) 3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram) 4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive) 5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's hardware guide, it is one of the best for now. As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is available, meaning 6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet on which one to use... The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs. I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with PCI-Express connection. AGP and PCI-Express are not compatible. You cannot put an AGP card into a PCI-Express slot and you can't put a PCI-Express card into an AGP slot. That being said, I would wait for a PCI-Express card. Your system is already new technology that will be apgradable for at least a couple of years. I am specifically refering to Socket-939. If you get an AGP card you may not be able to get a good upgrade card for more than another year if that long. Who knows how much longer AGP will last. Anybody know if ATI or NVIDIA are planning any new cards with AGP? If not then the 6800 or x800 may be the best card you'll ever put in an AGP system. AGP is a dying technology. If you can afford it, don't buy into something that will be gone when you want to upgrade. The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology? Yes. A PCI-Express card will require a x16 PCI-Express slot. I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature. That's correct. The PCI-Express video card will be x16 speed and the normal slots will be x1 speed to start. You cannot place a PCI-Express video card in a regular (x1) PCI-Express slot and you cannot place a PCI-Express video card in a non-PCI-Express PCI slot. (Old)PCI and PCI-Express are not compatible. Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will not provide any improvement in that perspective. Video bus bandwidth has traditionally outstripped CPU-GPU bandwidth requirements and PCI-Express is much faster than AGP so this will remain true with CPI-Express. For now PCI-Express will not offer anything new. Potentially the additional bandwidth, video and otherwise, will help system performance. I suspect that offering PCI-Express AND AGP is a 'pain in the rear' from an engineering stand point. For Intel-based systems maybe. For AMD64 put PCI Express on one link and PCI/AGP on another. I know I wouldn't want to have to support both of these busses on the same motherboard. So the obvious/expedient choice is to make all slots variants of PCI-Express. Besides, the hole point of PCI-Express is to replace the old PCI/AGP bus. Nobody wants to add another bus to the list they currently support. For now that means 1x PCI-Express slots for regular slots (modems, NIC's, soundcards, etc.) and x16 PCI-Express slots for video cards. Does PCI-Express have anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a revolutionary advancement over AGP slot? For now PCI-Express offers enigneers an easier time designing and building motherboards because of fewer lines to route. That's the claim. PCI-X achieves 4.8 GB/sec with 184 contacts. PCI Express X8 offers about the same with 98. But guess what. PCI-X is a bus--those same traces will serve one board or 6. PCI-X is point to point. 32 of those traces have to be duplicated for a second board. So a machine with 2 PCI-Express X16 slots needs 196 traces routed. And with 6 it would need 192 traces just for the signalling pairs without regard to grounds or power. But how about just regular PCI? Well, bandwidth on that is about 1 GB/sec with 124 contacts. That's the same as PCI Express x2. But X2 is not going to be available on any board that is going to be shipping in the foreseeable future, instead there will be X1, with half the bandwidth of regular PCI, or X4 with twice the bandwidth on 64 contacts, 16 of which have to be duplicated for each slot. So for 6 x4 slots we have 96 traces to route in addition to the ones that all slots share. So in the real world it doesn't look like PCI Express is going to make board design any simpler. For consumers PCI-Express offers the best potential for upgrading their system in the future since regular PCI and AGP are going to become obsolete. If Intel gets their way. For both PCI-Express offers the potential for higher performance systems in the future. Higher than what? By the time something comes along that would have saturated PCI-X Intel will be phasing out PCI Express in favor of some new manuactured fad. Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers. I agree to a point but you should also consider what your options will be when you next need to upgrade. If, at upgrade time, you will not care about the cost of a new motherboard and video card (and maybe memory and cpu) to support PCI-Express then this is a none issue. If you will care about the cost of a new motherboard and video card then consider getting the new stuff now. That's the problem, you can't get the new stuff now. Not for AMD-64. You have to choose between a bleeding-edge bus that's likely going to cause problems or a not-quite-bleeding-edge processor with proven performance. Everybody's promising PCI Express on AMD-64 Real Soon Now but nobody's committed to a date beyond "Q4" which may mean that chips will be available anytime between Oct 1 and Dec 31 if anybod meets their deadline, with motherboards available some time after. -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#8
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RaceFace wrote:
Their wonderful new implementation of SLI is just a way to get people to shell out huge amounts of money. In 2 years we may have a system that could take advantage of SLI, but not now. It's the perfect thing. Of course you will need a window in your case to show them off. I even wonder whether a window will cut it, I would rather have the cards be so big that they won't fit in the case and then have open slots in the cabinet that allow them to stick out so there won't be any question as to whether my friends and family will be impressed as they enter the room. Another added benefit of SLI is that you will definitely need more power, more cooling and that you'll have more noise, attracting more attention to your monster machine. I think it's a wonderful idea, can't wait till it gets on the market, this is real progress. Martin. |
#9
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I like to continue this thread with another question if I may...
I assume that, if not all, many of you have Serial ATA hard drives in your computers. I like to raise this question, rather a concern for me. I like to put 3 "Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA" hard drives in my new system that I want to build. I am planning to install 3 different operating systems on each hard drive. 1- First serial ATA drive will have Windows XP Professional 2- Second serial ATA; Windows 98 Second Edition 3- Third serial ATA; Linux operating system. In old motherboards with IDE hard drive connection, the CMOS of the motherboard gives you an option to choose boot sequence so that you can boot up from any one of the hard drives of your choice, which is what I have in my old computer. I've never had any personal experience with new motherboards with built-in Serial ATA connection, but the information that I am getting is that the CMOS in ASUS motherboards doesn't offer you any option to choose boot sequence for serial ATA hard drives. Does that apply to all ASUS motherboards? Or ASUS corrected that problem in their current motherboards? If not, how about other motherboard like ABIT, Gigabyte, MSI, Tyan? Do any of those motherboards offer boot-up sequence option for Serial ATA hard drives? I mean, why not offer an option to choose boot sequence in CMOS in new motherboards for Serial ATA hard drives? If none of the new motherboards with built-in Serial ATA hard drive connection offer boot-up sequence in CMOS, how do you boot up the hard drive of your choice if you have more than one hard drive with difference operating systems? Thanks... -- Ryan Atici |
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