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#11
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"somnambulist" wrote in message
... Nic wrote: I can tell the difference though. Which is why I've got a Radeon 9700 Pro Me neither - none at all. Which is why IYHO, YMMV and all that crap. The only really horrible quality of NVIDIA is their 16 bit post filtering. Coming from a Voodoo5, where the difference between 16 bit and 32 bit was hardly noticible (except in performance), I couldn't believe how ugly and obvious the 16 bit dithering matrix was on my new Geforce FX. It renders 16 bit unusable on NVIDIA cards (I know I know, we should be using 32 bit anyway). |
#12
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The only really horrible quality of NVIDIA is their 16 bit post filtering. ....Which isn't so strange, because it doesn't HAVE any! Coming from a Voodoo5, where the difference between 16 bit and 32 bit was hardly noticible (except in performance) Well, it would be considerably more noticeable if you ran some modern software on the thing that really uses lots of texture layers. Older software was understandably more conservative in the way of such things, since fillrate didn't exactly grow on trees back then. I couldn't believe how ugly and obvious the 16 bit dithering matrix was on my new Geforce FX. Why are you running games in 16-bit anyway? It's not any faster anyway, or at least not more than marginally. |
#13
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"Jack" wrote in message ... Hi there BTW. written when drunk. So commend me. The original article is an exercise in eye-strain and brain strain. Damn teutonic translators. Only a German could be so incourteous to his verbs. Oh, and btw, post-filter anisotropic filtering kicks ass..this 20th century bi-linear and tri-linear crap is for luddites. |
#14
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Lenny wrote:
I can tell the difference though. Which is why I've got a Radeon 9700 Pro Me neither - none at all. You probably don't know what to look for. The diff between bilinear and trilinear is as night and day once it's been pointed out to you. Just a little bit!! -- somnambulist |
#15
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Jack wrote:
Hi there I was amazed reading this. http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/2003..._a_english.php Nvidia has planned bad pic quality all along. It`s just numbers with them apparantly, Well excuse me then for giving them a number for quality performance. A zero. And another one for cheating...a very high one. I think new vid card buyers, gamers especially must look to others to find their card (ATI) Way to go Nvidia.....make it even worse and see if you can get away with it. They could try. BTW. written when drunk. So commend me. BYE Jack I read that, and I think a lot of these sites are WAY overemphasizing filtering stages and confusing bilinear/trilinear filtering. They're acting as if NVidia is just throwing away trilinear filtering. What's happening (especially when these sites post shots showing colored mip bands) is that instead of filtering every single texel, often you don't need to. It's an error level. For example, if a pixel was within a value of say 0.03 to it's next nearst filtered neighbor, you can safely discard it's filtering without affecting end image quality. Or you can calculate every single sample and come out with the exact same visual result. This kind of optimization is a good blend of mathematical reduction along with some very unnoticable visual degredation under extreme circumstances (such as reviewers nitpicking mip banding shots). In real game play it makes no difference. This is the kind of balanced decision every video card manufacturer should NOT be afraid to make, but ARE due to the weasel word "cheating" being tossed about when video drivers are concerned. Another practical consideration for this change in filtering is that NV analyzed the vast majority of all situations in which you can safely adjust the error bounds of the mipmap levels without affecting image quality and significantly reduce the load on anisotropic filtering. Anyone who has done a bit of raytracing with such programs as POV-Ray, etc. will know this concept of an error level. You don't need to trace every single texel, just if it's color is "a=0.1" to the neighboring texel and speed up rendering. Same applies with fillrate and video cards. |
#16
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Lenny wrote:
The only really horrible quality of NVIDIA is their 16 bit post filtering. ...Which isn't so strange, because it doesn't HAVE any! Coming from a Voodoo5, where the difference between 16 bit and 32 bit was hardly noticible (except in performance) Well, it would be considerably more noticeable if you ran some modern software on the thing that really uses lots of texture layers. Older software was understandably more conservative in the way of such things, since fillrate didn't exactly grow on trees back then. I couldn't believe how ugly and obvious the 16 bit dithering matrix was on my new Geforce FX. Why are you running games in 16-bit anyway? It's not any faster anyway, or at least not more than marginally. FYI for whoever cares -- the NVidia/3DFX acquisition was strictly over ip property, patents, and algorithems. None of the previous hardware features from the Voodoo series were "ported over" to the Geforce FX. No 22-bit post filter, no TMU design, nothing. The connection lies solely in the unerlying chip design, some culling methods (likely), and possibly some MSAA algorithems integrated into new FSAA modes. |
#17
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"phobos" wrote in message ... What's happening (especially when these sites post shots showing colored mip bands) is that instead of filtering every single texel, often you don't need to. It's an error level. For example, if a pixel was within a value of say 0.03 to it's next nearst filtered neighbor, you can safely discard it's filtering without affecting end image quality. Or you can calculate every single sample and come out with the exact same visual result. This kind of optimization is a good blend of mathematical reduction along with some very unnoticable visual degredation under extreme circumstances (such as reviewers nitpicking mip banding shots). In real game play it makes no difference. Regrettably, this isn't true in all applications. One of the more immersion destroying artifacts, and a direct result of this driver behavior, is the pervasive texture shimmering (texture aliasing) in FS9. What happens is exactly as the article author describes as the 'bow wave' of textel error (that you describe): As the angle of incidence increases to the textel, chances increase that the textel will change color, and then revert, and go through this rapid oscillation until the textel is firmly within a 'band'. All this occurs regardles of frame rate, fill rate, or bandwidth availability. It's a bad mathematical function that is *not* representative of the world we see. In most cases, lighting and other texture processing can make the textel shifting moot, but in FS9, it can be a real deal breaker. There is a solution, and it's ansiotropic filitering, but for most people, I suspect the hardware can't deal with all that sampling and maintain their current levels of performance. Bad filtering = forced upgrade! That's the co-conspirator in me talking. |
#18
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On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:33:00 +0100, "Flow"
enlightened us by scribbling this gem of wisdom: I allways found nvidia cards have bad image quality. Never the less i bought some of them and they are fast. And i will keep on buying them if they hold up to what they have been doing allready. Now where exactly have I heard these words before......? Gibs When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent", in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console" |
#19
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On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 02:26:44 GMT, "Derek Wildstar"
enlightened us by scribbling this gem of wisdom: Regrettably, this isn't true in all applications. One of the more immersion destroying artifacts, and a direct result of this driver behavior, is the pervasive texture shimmering (texture aliasing) in FS9. What happens is exactly as the article author describes as the 'bow wave' of textel error (that you describe): As the angle of incidence increases to the textel, chances increase that the textel will change color, and then revert, and go through this rapid oscillation until the textel is firmly within a 'band'. All this occurs regardles of frame rate, fill rate, or bandwidth availability. It's a bad mathematical function that is *not* representative of the world we see. In most cases, lighting and other texture processing can make the textel shifting moot, but in FS9, it can be a real deal breaker. There is a solution, and it's ansiotropic filitering, but for most people, I suspect the hardware can't deal with all that sampling and maintain their current levels of performance. Bad filtering = forced upgrade! That's the co-conspirator in me talking. You have a valid point there. Indeed, Anisotropic filtering (on the Ti series cards) is simply too hard on the hardware in almost any game made within 2003-present. Great in older games, but even then, turn on 4x FSAA and 8x AF, and you will have trouble even in games going back as far as 1999, depending on the resolution, of course. Sure, the FX cards can do better, but on the newest games, even this isn't going to be possible. (try playing 1024x768 6x FSAA 8x (or 16 x?) AF, in Half Life 2 or Doom3 ...good luck!. Though admittedly it was the same when the GF4 hit the streets 4x FSAA; 1024x768 and even higher was great in every game on the market, until UT2003 came along. Anyway, the point is, you should, at the LEAST, have an option to turn on full image quality, if you _WANT_ to, and not have lesser quality forced upon you, saying "the user doesn't need it/ can't tell the difference". I hate to say it, but this is "3dfx" all over again. Now yes, 3dfx's 16 bit filtering was the *BEST* out of any video card, (even better than ATI's, which is better than any Nvidia cards--which have NONE), but you remember their "32 bit is too hard on the hardware, and you can't tell the difference, easily, anyway"--gamers don't need it right now...they need speed. " Framerate is king".... Hmm... Of course, back then, games were very forgiving as to the # of texture layers, and that, combined with the TNT/GFs lack of 16 bit filtering, made, for example, Unreal on a Voodoo2 at 16 bit, look just as good as on a TNT @ 32 bit (if it even RAN...). But developers had their hands tied, in making 16 bit look good. Remember Carmack's article about the precision errors in 32 bit rendering as compared to 128 bit ? Anyway, why doesn't quality optimizations turn on full trilinear (also being allowed in Rivatuner), like in the older drivers? And the OTHER people saying how "if they wanted image quality, they would have gone with ATI", is just TOTAL teenager bullsh*t. Those SAME stupid kids were BASHING 3dfx for their 16 bit, not having the superiour 32 bit quality (pre-V5), and now theyre saying highest IQ isn't important, now that they don't have it, and ATI does. Can you say......FANBOY? Some people just aren't very clever.... Gibs When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent", in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console" |
#20
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:05:31 GMT "Lenny" meeped :
I can tell the difference though. Which is why I've got a Radeon 9700 Pro Me neither - none at all. You probably don't know what to look for. The diff between bilinear and trilinear is as night and day once it's been pointed out to you. especially with regards to MIP banding "effects" |
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