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#11
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On 05/03/2013 06:59 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most media would probably last 1000 years. This is about media being used during these 1000 years as a source of firmware and operating systems to keep the robotic facility functional. |
#12
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On 05/03/2013 03:32 PM, Uwe Hercksen wrote:
Bernhard Kuemel schrieb: Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic) capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras, actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably difficult. Hello, I think it is too optimistic to believe that all the needed parts will survive 1000 years, even if stored as spare parts. All metallic contact surfaces will oxidize. http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html claims about nickel data plates: "Nickel has a much longer life span than microfilm up to thousands of years." Something like nickel or gold might solve this problem. Lots of precious metals might attract thieves, though. Plastic parts will degrade. Polyethyleneterephtalate (PET) microfilm is thought to last up to 700 years. So maybe Teflon can last 1000 years. Isolations will fail. There are teflon insulated cables. A building that should provide good storage conditions would not survive this long time. Egyptian pyramids are over 4000 years old. They may not be in sufficient condition, but I still have hope that with improved technology/possibilities we can build something that lasts 1000 years. But the daily temperature changes in the Australian desert certainly require very durable building materials. Glass ceramics come to my mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-ceramic Bernhard |
#13
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
On 05/03/2013 03:32 PM, Uwe Hercksen wrote: Bernhard Kuemel schrieb: Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic) capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras, actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably difficult. Hello, I think it is too optimistic to believe that all the needed parts will survive 1000 years, even if stored as spare parts. All metallic contact surfaces will oxidize. http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html claims about nickel data plates: "Nickel has a much longer life span than microfilm up to thousands of years." Something like nickel or gold might solve this problem. Lots of precious metals might attract thieves, though. It's so thin, not worth the theft. To reduce the temptation cover it with something so it isn't shiny. Vandalism is much more of a concern. Plastic parts will degrade. Polyethyleneterephtalate (PET) microfilm is thought to last up to 700 years. So maybe Teflon can last 1000 years. I'd trust metal on glass and similar structures much more. A lot of times adverse effects in modern materials only become discovered decades after the fat. Like the spontaneous combustion that happened in old movie archives. Isolations will fail. There are teflon insulated cables. Even here it may be best to stay with the true and tried. I have a transformer that's probably almost 100 years old, the secondary is copper insulated with cloth. Looks like new. If something shows next to no decay over a hundred years chances are it may last another 900 years. With modern plastics we often don't really know. A building that should provide good storage conditions would not survive this long time. Egyptian pyramids are over 4000 years old. They may not be in sufficient condition, but I still have hope that with improved technology/possibilities we can build something that lasts 1000 years. But the daily temperature changes in the Australian desert certainly require very durable building materials. Glass ceramics come to my mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-ceramic Unless there is a continuous stream of money from pharaohs, king or admission-paying tourists even pyramids fall apart: http://philipcoppens.com/nap_art3.html The other problem is theft of building materials from the actual buildings. AFAIK it already started with the Ottomans raiding the pyramids for limestone. Guess they were not willing to pay full retail pricing ... BTW, you might want to build the robot with through-hole parts. That reduces the chance that someone turns it on in 998 years, doesn't work, and a hair crack is discovered in a big ceramic cap. I wonder what an extended 1000-year warranty would cost :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#14
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
... It's likely that whatever scheme you offer, would also prevent access to the preserved data, thus making regular verification difficult. How do you know that the data is still there without taking a big risk in trying to read and verify it? You can bury your time capsule, but you still couldn't prove that the data is still there. But maybe you could have some fun anyway. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=1915#comic Tim -- Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com |
#15
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:59:24 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most media would probably last 1000 years. That might work if the magnetic poles don't shift, if AGW doesn't make the ice disappear, or the desiccant doesn't saturate and moisture condenses on everything. Probably a few dozen other things that can go wrong. However, that's not the real problem. In 1000 years, the English language is likely to change into something unrecognizable. Compare modern English with Middle English from about 1400: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English#Sample_texts That's only 600 years old and I can only imagine what it will be like in 1000 years. In electronic format, there's also the non-trivial problem of being able to actually read the data. Got anything handy that will read an 8" floppy, Maxtor WORM drive, Syquest removable HD, or Bernoulli disk? What can one do if some obscure i/o chip needed read memory blows up and nobody has a replacement? I'm sure that there will be a 3D silicon printer to make your own chips, but who will be able to find the data sheet? Got any Signetics DCL 8000 chips handy, which is only 41 years old? http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/signetics/_dataBooks/1972_Signetics_SSI_8400_8800_TTL_DTL.pdf Of course, one can't use anything with fusible links or polysilicon fuses as these will either blow from EMP, corrosion, or current induced metal migration. However, if one must use a PLA, the programming instructions should probably be included, assuming someone would be able to read them in 1000 years. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#16
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On 2013-05-03, Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist. Hi! I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware (exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period. What methods do you think are suitable? Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue, if necessary. for the master copy: core rope memory. you said price not a big issue, that'll test how not-big it really is. -- ⚂⚃ 100% natural --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
#17
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:59:24 -0700, John Larkin wrote: Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most media would probably last 1000 years. That might work if the magnetic poles don't shift, if AGW doesn't make the ice disappear, or the desiccant doesn't saturate and moisture condenses on everything. Probably a few dozen other things that can go wrong. However, that's not the real problem. In 1000 years, the English language is likely to change into something unrecognizable. Compare modern English with Middle English from about 1400: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English#Sample_texts Jane Austen is perfectly readable, as is Sir Walter Scott. Shakespeare can get tricky. Chaucer is very hard to read. People tell me that Spanish, like Cervantes, has changed very little compared to English. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com http://www.highlandtechnology.com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom laser drivers and controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation |
#18
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On Fri, 03 May 2013 22:49:51 +0200, the renowned Bernhard Kuemel
wrote: On 05/03/2013 04:43 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware (exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period. What methods do you think are suitable? Cryogenic storage of parts that can stand thermal cycling and cold temperatures (should be most of them) should reduce most mechanisms of failure. For example, liquid nitrogen temperatures (77K) would reduce aging, in theory, by 2^20 or about 10^6:1, so the items would age maybe the equivalent of 8 hours in 1000 years. I'm worried that components or assemblies (circuit boards with components) crack or break with large temperature changes due to different thermal expansion coefficients. Probably would not end well with BGA lead-free boards, or QFN boards. Through hole and gull wing SMT parts with leaded solder seem to do fine, even with thermal shock. Cycling over the military temperature range (-55~105°C) is a similar change, however it's not centered at room temperature, so the stress could be greater. Also keeping liquid nitrogen around continously for 1000 years on earth is non-trivial. Absolutely. That's what this is all about. Linde machines probably won't last long enough. Peltier coolers don't cool deep enough. I'm waiting for adiabatic demagnetization of gadolinium alloy coolers. Bernhard I wonder if you could make something almost passive that would cool to, say, dry ice temperatures using radiative cooling into a desert night sky. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#19
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On Fri, 03 May 2013 18:28:17 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:59:24 -0700, John Larkin wrote: Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most media would probably last 1000 years. That might work if the magnetic poles don't shift, if AGW doesn't make the ice disappear, or the desiccant doesn't saturate and moisture condenses on everything. Probably a few dozen other things that can go wrong. However, that's not the real problem. In 1000 years, the English language is likely to change into something unrecognizable. Compare modern English with Middle English from about 1400: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English#Sample_texts Jane Austen is perfectly readable, as is Sir Walter Scott. Shakespeare can get tricky. Chaucer is very hard to read. That's because the English language changed radically during that period. Note the dates below. 1775 - 1817 Jane Austen 1771 - 1832 Sir Walter Scott 1564 - 1615 Bill Shakespear 1343 - 1400 Geoffry Chaucer The later authors wrote in Modern English. Chaucer wrote in Middle English. Modern English is fairly readable, but only 400 years old. Go back another 100 years and it's a mess. Another 200 years back and the Olde English is completely undecipherable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English#Text_samples People tell me that Spanish, like Cervantes, has changed very little compared to English. Also Latin, which was the reason that the legal profession adopted it as their favored language. Since it's a dead language, it's unlikely to change. Therefore legal definitions, interpretations, judgments, and laws will not change over the years. However, that's not the case with a living language, such as English. It changes in many ways, all of which are beyond the control of any official language police. At the present rate that technology, ethnicity, and advertising are butchering the language, it's unlikely that it will remain in its present form for very long. 1000 years from now, it will look as strange as Olde English. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#20
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist. Hi! I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware (exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period. What methods do you think are suitable? Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue, if necessary. I thought about this: ROMs/PROMs, replacing them when checksum fails. * add - 3 in "parallel" using majority logic for output a and checking. ROM/PROM masters, being copied once a year to flash ROM. * see above. 1000 flash ROMs, refreshing once a year from the ones that still have a valid checksum. * see above. ** Semiconductor storage is useless in a RAD environment. Non electronic masters: Microfilm/microfiche * Degrades - maybe not as fast as the old acetate movie films, but 100 year life is not realistic (but may be better in a RAD environment). HD-Rosetta (ion beam engraved nickel disc) * of ideas mentioned,this seems the best. now,how does it get read? glass CD/DVD * maybe good enough for 20-10 years. Paper [2] * NOPE! Leather,if kept in a dry environment is at least an order of magnitude better (eg: Dead Sea scrolls). Proven technology. Proven characteristics. Good enough for a few thousand years. punched cards * See above. The drawback of the non electronic masters is their reader system which can fail mechanically/optically (dust, gears, ...) and requires electronic components/firmware themselves. Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic) capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras, actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably difficult. * Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment. Thanks, Bernhard [1] http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta [2] something like http://ronja.twibright.com/optar/ [3] A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind uploading ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_u...ial_sectioning ) becomes possible. |
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