TNT2 Ultra incompatible with DirectX 9.0c?

While rebuilding (literally) my parents' computer--

And installing Win 98 SE (they already own it and we're trying to keep the
budget down), I (probably) mistakenly installed DirectX 9.0c while
downloading/installing all the OS updates. Now, their TNT2 Ultra card fails
all 3D rendering tests through the DX diagnostic utility. This is running the
45.23 drivers from nVidia. No problems running with this driver previously
under DX 8.1, btw, so I can only conclude the issue is with DX 9.0c.

My parents' aren't gamers and primarily use the machine for 2D apps, but this
annoys me as the tech doing the rebuild, and I'd like to resolve it, if
possible to do so without purchasing a new VC. Would moving up to a new
nVidia driver help? I was staying with the 45.23 set based on recommendations
for the older nVidia VC's, but if this might solve the rendering problem, I'm
willing to give it a try. Of course, there's always the scorched earth method
of wiping the C: partition and reinstalling the OS with DX 8.1, but I was
hoping not to do that all over again.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance for any and all replies --
--
/\ /\ | "I have studied many philosophers and
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | many cats. The wisdom of cats is
-T- | infinitely superior."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Hippolyte Taine (1828-1893)

A quick look at the nVidia drivers archive for Win95/98/ME suggests that the
66.94 drivers are the oldest that support DX 9.0c.

I'd probably go straight to the 71.84 drivers, myself.

With any luck, the performance hit of using an old card (DX7?) with DX9c
compatible drivers won't be noticeable.


Address scrambled. Replace nkbob with bobkn.

"D. K. Kraft" wrote in message
...
While rebuilding (literally) my parents' computer--

And installing Win 98 SE (they already own it and we're trying to keep the
budget down), I (probably) mistakenly installed DirectX 9.0c while
downloading/installing all the OS updates. Now, their TNT2 Ultra card
fails all 3D rendering tests through the DX diagnostic utility. This is
running the 45.23 drivers from nVidia. No problems running with this
driver previously under DX 8.1, btw, so I can only conclude the issue is
with DX 9.0c.

My parents' aren't gamers and primarily use the machine for 2D apps, but
this annoys me as the tech doing the rebuild, and I'd like to resolve it,
if possible to do so without purchasing a new VC. Would moving up to a
new nVidia driver help? I was staying with the 45.23 set based on
recommendations for the older nVidia VC's, but if this might solve the
rendering problem, I'm willing to give it a try. Of course, there's
always the scorched earth method of wiping the C: partition and
reinstalling the OS with DX 8.1, but I was hoping not to do that all over
again.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance for any and all replies --
--
/\ /\ | "I have studied many philosophers and
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | many cats. The wisdom of cats is
-T- | infinitely superior."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Hippolyte Taine (1828-1893)

DXDiag is trying to run the rendering tests through DX9 calls, which the old
driver cannot handle. Have you tried the latest drivers, 71.84?

BTW, DX9.0c support was added to the drivers only recently in 66.94, which
is one release older than the 71.84 drivers.

Whatever recommendation you get on using an older set of drivers for an
older card will be based on [very] limited personal experiences. The 71.84s
still work with TNT2 cards. Use them.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."


"D. K. Kraft" wrote in message
...
While rebuilding (literally) my parents' computer--

And installing Win 98 SE (they already own it and we're trying to keep the
budget down), I (probably) mistakenly installed DirectX 9.0c while
downloading/installing all the OS updates. Now, their TNT2 Ultra card
fails all 3D rendering tests through the DX diagnostic utility. This is
running the 45.23 drivers from nVidia. No problems running with this
driver previously under DX 8.1, btw, so I can only conclude the issue is
with DX 9.0c.

My parents' aren't gamers and primarily use the machine for 2D apps, but
this annoys me as the tech doing the rebuild, and I'd like to resolve it,
if possible to do so without purchasing a new VC. Would moving up to a
new nVidia driver help? I was staying with the 45.23 set based on
recommendations for the older nVidia VC's, but if this might solve the
rendering problem, I'm willing to give it a try. Of course, there's
always the scorched earth method of wiping the C: partition and
reinstalling the OS with DX 8.1, but I was hoping not to do that all over
again.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance for any and all replies --
--
/\ /\ | "I have studied many philosophers and
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | many cats. The wisdom of cats is
-T- | infinitely superior."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Hippolyte Taine (1828-1893)

"D. K. Kraft" wrote in message ...

While rebuilding (literally) my parents' computer--

And installing Win 98 SE (they already own it and we're trying to keep the
budget down), I (probably) mistakenly installed DirectX 9.0c while
downloading/installing all the OS updates. Now, their TNT2 Ultra card
fails all 3D rendering tests through the DX diagnostic utility. This is
running the 45.23 drivers from nVidia. No problems running with this
driver previously under DX 8.1, btw, so I can only conclude the issue is
with DX 9.0c.

My parents' aren't gamers and primarily use the machine for 2D apps, but
this annoys me as the tech doing the rebuild, and I'd like to resolve it,
if possible to do so without purchasing a new VC. Would moving up to a
new nVidia driver help? I was staying with the 45.23 set based on
recommendations for the older nVidia VC's, but if this might solve the
rendering problem, I'm willing to give it a try. Of course, there's
always the scorched earth method of wiping the C: partition and
reinstalling the OS with DX 8.1, but I was hoping not to do that all over
again.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions greatly appreciated.

With patience akin to a cat's, First of One, on 6/13/05 7:32 PM typed:
DXDiag is trying to run the rendering tests through DX9 calls, which the old
driver cannot handle. Have you tried the latest drivers, 71.84?

BTW, DX9.0c support was added to the drivers only recently in 66.94, which
is one release older than the 71.84 drivers.

Whatever recommendation you get on using an older set of drivers for an
older card will be based on [very] limited personal experiences. The 71.84s
still work with TNT2 cards. Use them.


Thanks for the advice, First. My basis for sticking with the 45.23 drivers
was due to the general opinion that newer drivers didn't render 2D that great
with older cards (such as TNT2 & GeForce 2), and some less than stellar
results of my own trying the 53.04 drivers. I will definitely give the latest
a spin and see what happens, though.

I really appreciate knowing when DX 9.0c support was added the nVidia driver
sets, that will be useful in the future with other machine rebuilds/updates.


Thanks again!
--
/\ /\ | "I have studied many philosophers and
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | many cats. The wisdom of cats is
-T- | infinitely superior."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Hippolyte Taine (1828-1893)

In article , D. K. Kraft says...
While rebuilding (literally) my parents' computer--

And installing Win 98 SE (they already own it and we're trying to keep the
budget down), I (probably) mistakenly installed DirectX 9.0c while
downloading/installing all the OS updates. Now, their TNT2 Ultra card fails
all 3D rendering tests through the DX diagnostic utility. This is running the
45.23 drivers from nVidia. No problems running with this driver previously
under DX 8.1, btw, so I can only conclude the issue is with DX 9.0c.

Or the fact 45.23 don't support DX9.0c....


--
Conor


"Be incomprehensible. If they can't understand, they can't disagree"

D. K. Kraft wrote:

Thanks for the advice, First. My basis for sticking with the 45.23
drivers was due to the general opinion that newer drivers didn't
render 2D that great with older cards (such as TNT2 & GeForce 2),

What "general opinion"? This opionion is simply BS. 2D performance
remains unaffected between different driver releases because it's
stagnating at a very high level for several card generations and didn't
suffer from any changes at all. The only thing why sometimes older
drivers are better is that newer drivers tend to get optimized for
current GPUs which can lead to some performance hits on older cards. But
that's a 3D-related problem only...

Benjamin

With patience akin to a cat's, Benjamin Gawert, on 6/14/05 8:12 AM typed:
D. K. Kraft wrote:

Thanks for the advice, First. My basis for sticking with the 45.23
drivers was due to the general opinion that newer drivers didn't
render 2D that great with older cards (such as TNT2 & GeForce 2),


What "general opinion"? This opionion is simply BS. 2D performance
remains unaffected between different driver releases because it's
stagnating at a very high level for several card generations and didn't
suffer from any changes at all. The only thing why sometimes older
drivers are better is that newer drivers tend to get optimized for
current GPUs which can lead to some performance hits on older cards. But
that's a 3D-related problem only...

Benjamin

Well, Benjamin, I beg to differ, although I admit I should have clarified my
"general opinion" source. I was referring to the circle of colleagues of mine
also performing IT and computer repair/building on the side. We generally
deal with non-gaming people, who value crisp, clear, visible text on their
machines, and responsiveness when it comes to 2D redraw, over 3D capabilities.
And from our combined experience, we've found that although the differences
between the nVidia Detonator and ForceWare drivers on cards with the
TNT/GeForce2 chipsets are subtle, there *are* differences.

For example, I did try the 71.84 ForceWare drivers on my parents' machine,
and although it solved the 3D rendering problem vis a vis DirectX 9.0c being
on board, it appeared the driver fought against the OS with regard to the
refresh rate, insisting on "Adapter Default," while Win 98 SE tried to set it
for the rate I'd chosen that would be easiest on the eyes. This apparent
conflict resulted in some kind of refresh rate (I'm unsure at what level) that
gave myself and my parents eye fatigue and headaches when viewing the screen
for more than 15 minutes. (BTW, their box is running an AMD Sempron 2800+ CPU,
just to note.) Additionally, text appeared subtly shifted, as though it had
been given a soft focus, which my mom found "blurry." After a short time of
working with the video set up this way, I had to agree: although the
differences weren't large, they were at a level that would cause a great deal
of annoyance with daily computer work.

My stance usually is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," and thus will be
reinstalling the OS on my parents' machine to allow for DirectX 8.1 and the
45.23 Detonator drivers--which have proven themselves to work flawlessly for
the applications and programs they use. It really was my mistake to install
DX 9.0c in the first place, since my parents' don't use any programs or games
that require this version.

It may very well be that there is a "comfort zone," for the TNT/GeForce2
chipset with the Detonator drivers that the ForceWare drivers, all power to
their backward compatibility, just don't deliver. For that possibility alone,
I don't think the recommendation to remain with the Detonator drivers for this
particular chipset should be dismissed out of hand. Ultimately, users need to
experiment with the available drivers and see which set provides the video
response they find usable. YMMV, as usual.


Apologies for the long post, but I had more than two whiskers' worth to say --
--
/\ /\ | "I have studied many philosophers and
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | many cats. The wisdom of cats is
-T- | infinitely superior."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Hippolyte Taine (1828-1893)

There were actually noticeable bugs in the 45.23 drivers when I used it with
my Geforce3. For example, running Pro|Engineer 2000i under Win98SE and
opening multiple 3D windows would cause screen corruption. The next release
fixed it.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."


"D. K. Kraft" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the advice, First. My basis for sticking with the 45.23
drivers was due to the general opinion that newer drivers didn't render 2D
that great with older cards (such as TNT2 & GeForce 2), and some less than
stellar results of my own trying the 53.04 drivers. I will definitely
give the latest a spin and see what happens, though.

I really appreciate knowing when DX 9.0c support was added the nVidia
driver sets, that will be useful in the future with other machine
rebuilds/updates.

D. K. Kraft wrote:

Well, Benjamin, I beg to differ, although I admit I should have
clarified my "general opinion" source. I was referring to the circle
of colleagues of mine also performing IT and computer repair/building
on the side. We generally deal with non-gaming people, who value
crisp, clear, visible text on their machines, and responsiveness when
it comes to 2D redraw, over 3D capabilities. And from our combined
experience, we've found that although the differences between the
nVidia Detonator and ForceWare drivers on cards with the TNT/GeForce2
chipsets are subtle, there *are* differences.

Well, on our location we have over 3500 employees doing 2D and 3D work
we have to take care for, and we do driver developments with Nvidia and
ATI GPUs for non-standard applications. And there definitely are no
differences in 2D handling in the last generations of
Detonator/Forceware...

For example, I did try the 71.84 ForceWare drivers on my parents'
machine, and although it solved the 3D rendering problem vis a vis
DirectX 9.0c being on board, it appeared the driver fought against
the OS with regard to the refresh rate, insisting on "Adapter
Default," while Win 98 SE tried to set it for the rate I'd chosen
that would be easiest on the eyes. This apparent conflict resulted
in some kind of refresh rate (I'm unsure at what level) that gave
myself and my parents eye fatigue and headaches when viewing the
screen for more than 15 minutes.

And Your knowlegded colleagues didn't tell You that the refresh rate has
exactly _nothing_ to do with the 2D part of drivers?

(BTW, their box is running an AMD
Sempron 2800+ CPU, just to note.) Additionally, text appeared subtly
shifted, as though it had been given a soft focus, which my mom found
"blurry."

Of course depending on the age and quality of the CRT that You use there
is a deep impact on the image quality dependend on the refresh rate. But
this also has _nothing_ to to with 2D performance of the driver...

After a short time of working with the video set up this
way, I had to agree: although the differences weren't large, they
were at a level that would cause a great deal of annoyance with daily
computer work.

Understandable. The refresh rate is a imminent part of working
ergonomics as is the display quality.

My stance usually is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," and thus will
be reinstalling the OS on my parents' machine to allow for DirectX
8.1 and the 45.23 Detonator drivers--which have proven themselves to
work
flawlessly for the applications and programs they use. It really was
my mistake to install DX 9.0c in the first place, since my parents'
don't use any programs or games that require this version.

I'm not confident with Win98 since I never used it, but Your refresh
rate problem sounds very clear to conflict with remainings of older
drivers. If You don't remove _everything_ from old drivers before
installing newer ones, problems like the one You have can occur.

I wonder why Your competent and experienced colleagues didn't tell You
that. Even if You only have contact with Windows PCs one should know
that the refresh rate is something different than the 2D performance and
that such problems often come from remainings of older drivers...

Benjamin

In article , D. K. Kraft says...

Well, Benjamin, I beg to differ, although I admit I should have clarified my
"general opinion" source. I was referring to the circle of colleagues of mine
also performing IT and computer repair/building on the side.
For example, I did try the 71.84 ForceWare drivers on my parents' machine,
and although it solved the 3D rendering problem vis a vis DirectX 9.0c being
on board, it appeared the driver fought against the OS with regard to the
refresh rate, insisting on "Adapter Default,"

In that case, it looks like you and your circle of "computer building
friends" have about as much knowledge of building computers as an ice
cube.

Did any of you numpties actually bother to check that the monitor was
installed as the correct one?


--
Conor


"Be incomprehensible. If they can't understand, they can't disagree"