Does more memory require a more powerful fan?

The t hread about free installation of 10 has piqued my interest.

Which is better, a small form factor PC running a 64bit version of 10
using 8Gigs RAM, or a full size case running a 32bit version with 4gigs?


Alternatively, I ordered 8gigs for my computer that had the bad memory**
Does that mean I need a bigger fan?

Do they sell more powerful fans that will fit the same spot. It's only
about 3x3"!!

It's already running borderline hot, according to Speccy, but when I put
in the new RAM I was going to clean out the dust, which I can see
through the plastic grill on the front of the box.

I don't thnk there is room in a SFF case for a second fan.

On 1/22/2017 5:48 PM, micky wrote:
The t hread about free installation of 10 has piqued my interest.

Which is better, a small form factor PC running a 64bit version of 10
using 8Gigs RAM, or a full size case running a 32bit version with 4gigs?
Alternatively, I ordered 8gigs for my computer that had the bad memory**
Does that mean I need a bigger fan?
Do they sell more powerful fans that will fit the same spot. It's only
about 3x3"!!
It's already running borderline hot, according to Speccy, but when I put
in the new RAM I was going to clean out the dust, which I can see
through the plastic grill on the front of the box.

I don't thnk there is room in a SFF case for a second fan.

I wondered about that heating issue myself, found these articles, based
on them - if you do any heavy processing you might want to monitor your
temperatures closely to see if you need more cooling. But since you're
already running 'borderline hot' I would improve the cooling based on
that comment alone.

4 sticks of ram will definately create more heat than 2 sticks of ram.
However the amount is very miniscule compared to say something like your
CPU or GPU. Why are you worried about heat from RAM? They output very
very little.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/309410-30-heat

One potential drawback of adding RAM to a laptop is that it can lead to
increased processor usage and heat generation. The more RAM you have,
the more data you will be able to send to the processor, which allows
for better computing speeds, but can also make the processor reach 100%
of its processing power. When a CPU nears 100% utilization, it will
generate more heat. If it gets too hot, the computer may shut down to
avoid damage.
https://www.techwalla.com/articles/t...ry-on-a-laptop



More electronic circuitry, more power consumption, more heat. But it
will be relatively insignificant. The major source of heat in all
computers is the CPU. The heat generated from RAM is miniscule in
comparison.
http://www.makeuseof.com/answers/add...enerates-heat/

micky wrote:

Which is better, a small form factor PC running a 64bit version of 10
using 8Gigs RAM, or a full size case running a 32bit version with 4gigs?

Impossible question, e.g. this machine is 64 bit, has 8GB and no fan,
not even any ventilation slots. Does that make it better or worse?

micky wrote:
The thread about free installation of 10 has piqued my interest.

Which is better, a small form factor PC running a 64bit version of 10
using 8Gigs RAM, or a full size case running a 32bit version with 4gigs?

Alternatively, I ordered 8gigs for my computer that had the bad memory**
Does that mean I need a bigger fan?

Do they sell more powerful fans that will fit the same spot. It's only
about 3x3"!!

It's already running borderline hot, according to Speccy, but when I put
in the new RAM I was going to clean out the dust, which I can see
through the plastic grill on the front of the box.

I don't thnk there is room in a SFF case for a second fan.

For a given square dimension of fan (80mm in your case),
there are two ways to increase airflow. Make the fan
thicker (go from 25mm to 37.5mm thick), or increase
the rotating speed. For example, to get away from
the "average" 35CFM 80mm fan, make it spin at 4000RPM.
The noise would drive you nuts! A typical fan might
be 1200RPM to 1800RPM or so. It's no accident that the
average fan is 35CFM - that's the "threshold of annoying".

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16835129238

Make sure that the case has sufficient intake vents.
And that any intakes are clear of debris. For example,
Antec Sonata cases have a window-screen air filter in
the front bezel, which must be cleaned every three months.
I just remove the filter and don't install it.

On my Antecs, I remove a portion of the plastic
front bezel, to leave more intake vent holes.

Some exhaust vents are fairly restrictive. You could
"dremel" off the honeycomb filter, and put a wire
finger guard in its place (the same guard as they use
on ATX supplies), for less arrestance. Any time you
do metalwork on a PC, pull *all* the hardware out of
the case, and thoroughly vacuum out the metal filings
before reassembly.

Those are examples of simple fixes.

*******

The best memory config for dual channel four slot desktops,
is to fill only two slots. Like this.

none DIMM none DIMM

That leaves room for cooling. No augmentation is necessary.

If you do it this way...

DIMM DIMM DIMM DIMM

there is a tendency for the middle two DIMMs to run
a bit warmer. If the DIMMs are luke-warm, you
probably don't have a problem. For example, on
my newest PC, the DIMMs all touch. There are no
air gaps at all for the center DIMMs. Older PCs
might have a tiny bit more room.

And note that, figuring out memory power is *not* additive.

The four DIMM config above, does *not* draw twice
the power of the two DIMM config. The additional
DIMMs, for accounting purposes, run in Refresh mode.
Because, only one DIMM per channel, can be doing
the expensive Read or Write cycle at a given time.
It's because of this, that the second DIMM per channel
causes a modest increase in overall power.

The power a DIMM burns, is related to the "cycle mix".
When a computer is in "Sleep" mode, that's when you get
a chance to empirically measure the "Refresh" power. While
the computer sleeps, the chips are all in auto refresh.

Now, these aren't very direct measures, but on my
machine with 8 DIMMs, it draws 7.5W while sleeping.
On my 4 DIMM computer, when it sleeps, it draws 5W of
power. This is just to give the basic idea, that a
sleeping DIMM is around 1 watt.

So when you add a second DIMM to a channel, both DIMMs
on a channel cannot do Writes at the same time. They
could both Refresh. One could Refresh, one could Write.
It means the "average" power per DIMM is now lower,
because on average, they get to do Refresh cycles
more often, in lieu of the more expensive Read or
Write cycles.

When you get a DIMM datasheet, it has a power number.
Like, 2 watts. That figure is attained, using an
"Industry standard cycle mix". In other words,
all the manufacturers agree to spec the memory
with 30% writes, and other percentages for
Refresh or whatever. They then quote a single,
monolithic power number of "2 watts". But,
as a stingy user, if you're saving watts,
you should know, that on average, the second
DIMM added to a channel, from a statistic
perspective, is running in Refresh the whole
time, so it counts as "1 watt". So two DIMMs
on a channel would be "3 watts". A single
DIMM on a channel is "2 watts".

These are all just rough rules of thumb.

If you download an actual memory chip datasheet,
it gives a breakout of the power for *every* cycle
type. When Kingston quotes a power number for their
DIMM, they just take a spreadsheet, dump in the
detailed numbers from the memory chip datasheet,
apply the industry standard cycle mix, and put the
resulting number in the DIMM data sheet as "2 watts".
A user, if they wanted, could reproduce some of that
arithmetic on their own.

When you don't populate a memory channel with a
DIMM at all, the terminator power is effectively
turned off. The pad drivers on the channel could
be disabled. This saves a watt on the Northbridge.

So using one DIMM, is the absolutely lowest power
config you can have. Adding a second DIMM to the
*same* channel, adds the lowest incremental power
increase (because for accounting purposes, the
second DIMM sits in Refresh all the time). When
you populate both channels with one DIMM, it leaves
nice air gaps for cooling. When you fill all
four slots, it's pretty hard for the middle
DIMMs (even though their average power is now
a bit lower), to get cooling.

I've only added a fan over DIMMs just one time.
And the DIMMs were running at *normal* VDimm
and were not boosted. I stuck a finger on the
new modules, and they were running pretty hot.
That does not normally happen.

Even the new computer, where the modules touch,
I haven't augmented the DIMM cooling on them.
I used the finger test, and they were OK.

Paul

"micky" wrote

| It's already running borderline hot, according to Speccy, but when I put
| in the new RAM I was going to clean out the dust, which I can see
| through the plastic grill on the front of the box.

Definitely vacuum out the dust. Carefully.
I wonder what you mean by borderline hot.
Different CPUs have different ratings. I've
never heard of RAM being especially sensitive.

In general, why have a small case with tight
quarters and limited expandabilitiy if you don't
have to? It makes sense for portability. If your
computer stays put then small makes little sense.
And it usually costs more.

I just use a typical fan in a mid-tower, but the AMD
CPUs I use have had built-in temp control for years
now, and I use a water-cooled heat sink. HWMonitor
tells me I'm currently running at 87F and 76F. I assume
that's CPU and board, respectively. Temp flow around
the two hard disks is in the 60s. (We keep the thermostat
in the low 60s in the Winter.)

One thing I do with all computers I build: Most
cases these days have holes everywhere. I don't
know why. It seems to be an idea that hotshots
will want about 8 large fans. But that means
arbitrary air flow. I use a single rear fan
and add filters to holes I want to use. Mostly I like
to use the front holes, so that air is drawn across
the board and drives. I also use the side hole across
from the board. The other holes I cover. For filter
material I buy a green pad that's sold as furnace
filter at Home Depot. It comes with plastic grid.
Using plastic ties it's easy to cut any size filter and
grid, then attach it using the ties through case holes.
I then occasionaly vacuum the filter by just running
the vacuum nozzle along the outside
of the case, over the vent holes. That keeps the
inside pretty much dust-free. If you don't use filters
you get a blanket of dust and may also get greasy
residue if smoking or cooking fumes are nearby.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 09:53:12 -0500,
"Mayayana" wrote:

"micky" wrote

| It's already running borderline hot, according to Speccy, but when I put

I should have said that I was referring to CPU here. (Although Speccy
does also give a temp for the Seagate hardddrive, and even one for the
WD external harddrive!! (though not the Seagate external HDD. They are
both in the same USB dock.)

More below

| in the new RAM I was going to clean out the dust, which I can see
| through the plastic grill on the front of the box.

Definitely vacuum out the dust. Carefully.
I wonder what you mean by borderline hot.
Different CPUs have different ratings. I've
never heard of RAM being especially sensitive.

In general, why have a small case with tight
quarters and limited expandabilitiy if you don't
have to? It makes sense for portability. If your
computer stays put then small makes little sense.
And it usually costs more.

I just use a typical fan in a mid-tower, but the AMD
CPUs I use have had built-in temp control for years
now, and I use a water-cooled heat sink. HWMonitor
tells me I'm currently running at 87F and 76F. I assume
that's CPU and board, respectively. Temp flow around
the two hard disks is in the 60s. (We keep the thermostat
in the low 60s in the Winter.)

One thing I do with all computers I build: Most
cases these days have holes everywhere. I don't
know why. It seems to be an idea that hotshots
will want about 8 large fans. But that means
arbitrary air flow. I use a single rear fan
and add filters to holes I want to use. Mostly I like
to use the front holes, so that air is drawn across
the board and drives. I also use the side hole across
from the board. The other holes I cover. For filter
material I buy a green pad that's sold as furnace
filter at Home Depot. It comes with plastic grid.
Using plastic ties it's easy to cut any size filter and
grid, then attach it using the ties through case holes.
I then occasionaly vacuum the filter by just running
the vacuum nozzle along the outside
of the case, over the vent holes. That keeps the
inside pretty much dust-free. If you don't use filters
you get a blanket of dust and may also get greasy
residue if smoking or cooking fumes are nearby.


I havent' done much work yet but these programs disagree about the
temperatu

Core Temp 1.5 says my cores are each from 35 to 37C.
Anvir says my CPU is 40C, though that's the same temp it says my C:
drive is. And
Speccy says each of my cores is varying from 40 to 48C. Just getting
mail for a few seconds will raise the temp, it seems.

Quite a discrepancy, if you ask me. I looked other times too and
Core-temp is always 5^C (9^F!) lower than Speccy. Don't they use the
same sensor?

"micky" wrote

| Speccy says each of my cores is varying from 40 to 48C. Just getting
| mail for a few seconds will raise the temp, it seems.
|
I don't know either of those programs, so I don't
know what to think. I just tried Core Temp and I
get a temp of 63F, while HWMonitor is telling me
91F. I'm guessing HWMonitor is more accurate.

The top temp you're getting is only 118F. The top
sustained allowable is apparently somewhere around
60C or 140F for AMD. So it doesn't sound like your
CPU is running excessively hot. On the other hand,
that doesn't tell you how it's running when it's at
full tilt.

Then again, you didn't say anything about the CPU.
I haven't used Intel since the 90s, so I'm not sure
what's normal there. You might want to check what's
normal for your CPU.

If you have AMD make sure you've enabled Cool 'n
Quiet in the BIOS. The name is silly, but it's a clever
technology that keeps the heat down by shutting
off the CPU for microseconds when it's not needed.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Tue, 24 Jan 2017 22:13:35 -0500,
"Mayayana" wrote:

"micky" wrote

| Speccy says each of my cores is varying from 40 to 48C. Just getting
| mail for a few seconds will raise the temp, it seems.
|
I don't know either of those programs, so I don't
know what to think. I just tried Core Temp and I
get a temp of 63F, while HWMonitor is telling me
91F.

Wow! I forgot that I have Hardware Monitor too. It pretty much agrees
with Speccy, though nowhere near exactly, and sometimes one is several
degrees higher than the other, and Core Temp still shows several
degrees lower than either.

I see that Core Temp has a screen called Adjust Offsets, where you can
choose a number to corrrect the temperature! I would do that if I were
sure what correct is. I guess they know they are wrong.

Core Temp also offers to do a variety of things if it gets too hot, and
it would be my favorite program of the 3, but it keeps closing on its
own, I think. Five times so far. I don't know if that's because I
haven't contributed any money, but otoh, I'm not going to contrtibute if
that won't fix it. I read the help screen and it doesn't say anything
about timing out.


I made the mistake of closing Hardware Monitor, I can't find an icon for
it, and when I search for it in the windows key, search field, I don't
find it. I think it starts on startup but the icon in the systray is
gone for now.

I'm guessing HWMonitor is more accurate.

The top temp you're getting is only 118F. The top
sustained allowable is apparently somewhere around
60C or 140F for AMD. So it doesn't sound like your
CPU is running excessively hot. On the other hand,
that doesn't tell you how it's running when it's at
full tilt.

Well what got me alarmed in the first place is that Speccy has 2 or 3
colors for the temperature number, and it was going for yellow to red
fairly often, but its number never actually got that high, and the other
two programs are not upset. (Speccy shows oodles of other things too.)
Core-Temp seems to actually look in a table that has my cpu processor
listed -- for example it lists the TJmax** -- so like I say, if it
will only stop stopping, I'll contribute.

Isn't TJmax a clothing store? Maybe they make processors too.

So I think I panicked for nothing, but when the memory comes, some time
between tomorrow and 2 weeks from now, I'll clean the insides. IIUC
there is no CPU fan and they call the case fan, just behind the grill, a
CPU fan. I think they had a shroud over everything, to route the
breeze past the CPU, so I can't tell how dirty it is until I take that
off.

I also bought a replacemnt fan, used, for $7. I bought it at 4 in the
morning on Monday and it arrived at noon on Tuesday, USPS first class
postage. But it came about 100 miles from Salisbury MD to Baltimore, in
one day. That's pretty good.

As to the grill dust, I got rid of that by putting my mouth up to it and
blowing . It took about 5 times to get each section. Since I can't
use a vacuum cleaner, I may use either the solder sucker bulb or my
mouth to blow the stuff away. Sure a little will resettle in the
computer but only 2 or 3 percent.


Then again, you didn't say anything about the CPU.
I haven't used Intel since the 90s, so I'm not sure
what's normal there. You might want to check what's
normal for your CPU.

If you have AMD make sure you've enabled Cool 'n
Quiet in the BIOS. The name is silly, but it's a clever
technology that keeps the heat down by shutting
off the CPU for microseconds when it's not needed.

Ha! But I've got Intel.

micky wrote:


Ha! But I've got Intel.


AMD = Cool N' Quiet
Intel = Enhanced Intel SpeedStep (EIST)

These show in many retail motherboards.

Paul

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 22:39:06 -0500, micky
wrote:


As to the grill dust, I got rid of that by putting my mouth up to it and
blowing . It took about 5 times to get each section. Since I can't
use a vacuum cleaner, I may use either the solder sucker bulb or my
mouth to blow the stuff away. Sure a little will resettle in the
computer but only 2 or 3 percent.



You might want to buy and use a can of compressed air. They are
inexpensive.