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#1
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially
melted. In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card, work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory. Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible. Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and so-forth? Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available? -- PeteCresswell |
#2
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially melted. In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card, work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory. Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible. Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and so-forth? Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available? I just did an "upgrade" and this was my solution. 4CoreDual-SATA2 http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.as...2%20R2.0&s=775 2 slots DDR, 2 slots DDR2 (use only one type at a time) Real AGP 8X video slot Fake PCI Express x16 slot (x4 wiring only) VIA PT880 Ultra chipset, 8237S with two SATAII ports LAN doesn't seem to be as good as my old ones. Likely does not have a functioning EIST (cannot find evidence of it). I combined this with an E4700 2.6GHz/FSB800, a low spec processor, that wasn't that much cheaper than some of the processors with more cache. What one person did with theirs, is use windshield defroster paint, to modify the BSEL code on the contacts, to read FSB1066. Their claim is, the motherboard behaves better if fooled into thinking the processor is FSB1066, than if you use the clock adjustment and set it to 266MHz. (In my rush to assembly the new system, I didn't spend time "painting" my processor, so for the moment it is still at 2.6GHz. Taking my system apart again is not something I'd enjoy doing right now - my heatsink screws on from the solder side of the motherboard.) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115045 The board does not have a full set of overclocking features, and a minus is a missing VID control. Now for the specs part. SuperPI 1 million digits (either my AthlonXP 3200+ or my P4 at 3.1GHz) Between 45 and 50 seconds. SuperPI 1 million digits on E4700, with two sticks memory running DDR2-533. Got 24 seconds. So not quite a doubling. SuperPI uses a single core. In practice, I was surprised to find some things did not speed up. I have a game with a relatively long load time, and the new processor really didn't help. And the disk light is not on continuously for that either, so the loading process is not disk bound. Whether that is due to the absolutely crappy VIA memory performance, remains to be seen. If the processor was $135 and the motherboard around $70 or so, then you'd have a "side-grade" for about $200. The reason I did it the way I did, is Win2K only supports 2 cores, so that decision was an easy one. I wanted to keep my AGP card for the moment. I could have reused my DDR400 RAM, but opted to double the amount of RAM, by getting 2x1GB DDR2. My upgrade isn't particularly clever, but it also isn't as expensive as doing it right. Intel(R) Processor Identification Utility Version: 3.9.20080910 Time Stamp: 2008/11/01 04:28:00 Number of processors in system: 1 Current processor: #1 Cores per processor: 2 Disabled cores per processor: 0 Processor Name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E4700 @ 2.60GHz Type: 0 Family: 6 Model: F Stepping: B Revision: B6 Maximum CPUID Level: A L1 Instruction Cache: 2 x 32 KB L1 Data Cache: 2 x 32 KB L2 Cache: 2 MB Packaging: LGA775 EIST: Yes ---- Processor, yes, but motherboard ? MMX(TM): Yes SSE: Yes SSE2: Yes SSE3: Yes SSE4: No Enhanced Halt State: No ---- Doesn't seem to have much power management Execute Disable Bit: No Hyper-Threading Technology: No Intel(R) 64 Architectu Yes Intel(R) Virtualization Technology: No Expected Processor Frequency: 2.60 GHz Reported Processor Frequency: 2.60 GHz Expected System Bus Frequency: 800 MHz Reported System Bus Frequency: 800 MHz ******* I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years, and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new chip to the board. The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January), and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty. Paul |
#3
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message ... Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially melted. In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card, work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory. Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible. Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and so-forth? Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available? -- PeteCresswell the only place i found a decent 478 board was on ebay and it was not cheap. that was about six months ago. |
#4
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
"Paul" wrote in message ...
I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years, and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new chip to the board. The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January), and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty. Paul, is there a known issue with ICH5 failures? If so, it sure hasn't surfaced with any of my IC7-G's. Or are you saying Asus' use of passive cooling on their motherboards has more to do with it? |
#5
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:42:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote: Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially melted. In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card, work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory. Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible. Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and so-forth? Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available? Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like what you had http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 |
#6
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:03:00 -0500, bandit wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:42:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote: Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially melted. In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card, work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory. Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible. Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and so-forth? Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available? Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like what you had http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 Better yet go down this page there a couple more that look more like you're http://computers.shop.ebay.com/items...=p3286.c0.m282 |
#7
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
Per bandit:
Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like what you had http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 That's *exactly* what I had. But I just got back from Micro Center with a new MB.... But I might just buy that one too - since it would give me a nice cheap backup.... or maybe an extra box... Thanks -- PeteCresswell |
#8
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
marcos wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years, and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new chip to the board. The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January), and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty. Paul, is there a known issue with ICH5 failures? If so, it sure hasn't surfaced with any of my IC7-G's. Or are you saying Asus' use of passive cooling on their motherboards has more to do with it? It is not "known", as in being generally acknowledged by all the manufacturers. Gigabyte is the only company to provide a FAQ page (someone else found this for me). And while ICH4 is mentioned in this article, the evidence in the news groups, is that ICH5 is far and away the worst chip. http://tw2005.giga-byte.com/Motherbo...AQ/FAQ_456.htm The evidence is there for you to examine. The burn mark on the chip, is right over top of where the USB I/O pads get their power. (I looked up the ball-out diagram for the chip, and overlaid the picture on the ball pattern.) The failure is a "latchup type", and the I/O pads electrically form an SCR (silicon controlled rectifier), a PNPN junction, which shorts the VDD and VSS at the pad. This causes a couple of amperes of current to be drawn, causing severe local heating. Even if a heatsink was placed on top of the chip, it makes no difference to the underlying mechanism. Damage can go two ways. If the bond wires or other interconnect, burn out quickly enough, all that is lost, is all USB functioning. The Device Manager still shows all USB entries (because the logic blocks are undamaged). In that case, just the USB I/O pad itself has lost power, and cannot talk to a USB device any more. People report that none of their USB interfaces work (all six fail at the same time), but otherwise the computer is unaffected. If the bond wires remain intact, the area of the fault starts to heat up, and irreversible damage takes place. Machines with the burn mark, no longer boot up. The issue is, why did it happen in the first place ? I found an Intel technical journal article, where they make the claim that their I/O pads have a 6KV resilience to electrostatic discharge, which is high when compared to a lot of other chips. So if the Intel design was so bulletproof, why would ESD be causing these latchup failures ? Many other motherboard designs, with chips from Nvidia, ATI, VIA, SIS, and so on, don't seem to have this problem. A second potential cause, might be if the 5V compatible interfaces on the chip, really aren't 5V compatible. In that case, there may be a sensitivity to sequencing of power supply rails at startup. So far, I've only heard of a couple people having chip damage at boot. The vast majority die while the machine is running, which is more consistent with some other cause, like ESD. Passive cooling is perfectly appropriate for that chip, because its power dissipation and normal operating temperature, make cooling via the chip top, and via the ball array on the bottom, good enough. They don't install heatsinks, purely as a means to remove the heat from an ESD failure. If a heatsink was present, all it would do, is protect the plastic. I've experienced latchup failures in the lab, but none of mine were the major "burn" type failures. There is also something called "micro latchup", where individual CMOS gates can latch up, and that causes the chip to malfunction rather than burn. In that case, the PNPN junction formed, is too weak to cause a thermal incident. The above is my own analysis of all of the symptoms provided by posters. None of the above has been obtained from any authoritative source, so these theories are my own. The Gigabyte FAQ points at a potential source of the problem, without laying blame at Intel's feet in so many words. Whether you experience a problem or not, may depend on how much you use the USB ports. One poster lost a total of four or five motherboards to this problem, and I really would have liked to understand what the guy was doing to the boards, to make so many failures show up in one household. For that one guy at least, he seemed to know the recipe for disaster. If you have an ICH5 on the motherboard, I'd at least recommend that you stop using the USB port on the front panel of the computer. The rear ports would be marginally safer. And using a separate PCI USB2 card for USB devices, could extend the life of the motherboard considerably. Even the USB ports on PCI cards have been known to fail - just ask the people who have NEC USB chips on a PCI card, as to how many ports still work. But when a NEC port fails, nothing burns. Paul |
#9
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
Paul wrote:
marcos wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years, and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new chip to the board. The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January), and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty. Paul, is there a known issue with ICH5 failures? If so, it sure hasn't surfaced with any of my IC7-G's. Or are you saying Asus' use of passive cooling on their motherboards has more to do with it? It is not "known", as in being generally acknowledged by all the manufacturers. Gigabyte is the only company to provide a FAQ page (someone else found this for me). And while ICH4 is mentioned in this article, the evidence in the news groups, is that ICH5 is far and away the worst chip. http://tw2005.giga-byte.com/Motherbo...AQ/FAQ_456.htm The evidence is there for you to examine. The burn mark on the chip, is right over top of where the USB I/O pads get their power. (I looked up the ball-out diagram for the chip, and overlaid the picture on the ball pattern.) The failure is a "latchup type", and the I/O pads electrically form an SCR (silicon controlled rectifier), a PNPN junction, which shorts the VDD and VSS at the pad. This causes a couple of amperes of current to be drawn, causing severe local heating. Even if a heatsink was placed on top of the chip, it makes no difference to the underlying mechanism. Damage can go two ways. If the bond wires or other interconnect, burn out quickly enough, all that is lost, is all USB functioning. The Device Manager still shows all USB entries (because the logic blocks are undamaged). In that case, just the USB I/O pad itself has lost power, and cannot talk to a USB device any more. People report that none of their USB interfaces work (all six fail at the same time), but otherwise the computer is unaffected. If the bond wires remain intact, the area of the fault starts to heat up, and irreversible damage takes place. Machines with the burn mark, no longer boot up. The issue is, why did it happen in the first place ? I found an Intel technical journal article, where they make the claim that their I/O pads have a 6KV resilience to electrostatic discharge, which is high when compared to a lot of other chips. So if the Intel design was so bulletproof, why would ESD be causing these latchup failures ? Many other motherboard designs, with chips from Nvidia, ATI, VIA, SIS, and so on, don't seem to have this problem. A second potential cause, might be if the 5V compatible interfaces on the chip, really aren't 5V compatible. In that case, there may be a sensitivity to sequencing of power supply rails at startup. So far, I've only heard of a couple people having chip damage at boot. The vast majority die while the machine is running, which is more consistent with some other cause, like ESD. Passive cooling is perfectly appropriate for that chip, because its power dissipation and normal operating temperature, make cooling via the chip top, and via the ball array on the bottom, good enough. They don't install heatsinks, purely as a means to remove the heat from an ESD failure. If a heatsink was present, all it would do, is protect the plastic. I've experienced latchup failures in the lab, but none of mine were the major "burn" type failures. There is also something called "micro latchup", where individual CMOS gates can latch up, and that causes the chip to malfunction rather than burn. In that case, the PNPN junction formed, is too weak to cause a thermal incident. The above is my own analysis of all of the symptoms provided by posters. None of the above has been obtained from any authoritative source, so these theories are my own. The Gigabyte FAQ points at a potential source of the problem, without laying blame at Intel's feet in so many words. Whether you experience a problem or not, may depend on how much you use the USB ports. One poster lost a total of four or five motherboards to this problem, and I really would have liked to understand what the guy was doing to the boards, to make so many failures show up in one household. For that one guy at least, he seemed to know the recipe for disaster. If you have an ICH5 on the motherboard, I'd at least recommend that you stop using the USB port on the front panel of the computer. The rear ports would be marginally safer. And using a separate PCI USB2 card for USB devices, could extend the life of the motherboard considerably. Even the USB ports on PCI cards have been known to fail - just ask the people who have NEC USB chips on a PCI card, as to how many ports still work. But when a NEC port fails, nothing burns. Here is a photo of a damaged southbridge chip: http://onfinite.com/libraries/179057/2ea.jpg I had one P4P800 Deluxe MB lost with an almost identical damage after having plugged a new mouse in the rear USB connector. After that replaced the MB and bought a 25 dollar NEC USB board to this computer and two other computers. They have been running flawlessly for a couple of years now. -- th |
#10
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Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?
Per bandit:
Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like what you had http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14 Just pulled the trigger on the order. Now I have a spare that takes advantage of the memory and CPU in the burned board. FWIW, the Gigabyte EP45-DS3L/quad processor/high-end GeForce graphics card/500w power supply that I blew almost five hundred bucks on is clearly faster, but equally clearly not five hundred bucks faster. For my money P4's will be running Windows XP quite usably for a long time yet. Thanks again. -- PeteCresswell |
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