Straight-Up Replacement For P4P800-E?

Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially
melted.


In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a
board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card,
work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory.

Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible.

Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and
upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and
so-forth?

Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available?
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially
melted.


In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a
board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card,
work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory.

Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible.

Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and
upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and
so-forth?

Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available?

I just did an "upgrade" and this was my solution.

4CoreDual-SATA2
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.as...2%20R2.0&s=775

2 slots DDR, 2 slots DDR2 (use only one type at a time)
Real AGP 8X video slot
Fake PCI Express x16 slot (x4 wiring only)
VIA PT880 Ultra chipset, 8237S with two SATAII ports
LAN doesn't seem to be as good as my old ones.
Likely does not have a functioning EIST (cannot find evidence of it).

I combined this with an E4700 2.6GHz/FSB800, a low
spec processor, that wasn't that much cheaper than
some of the processors with more cache. What one person
did with theirs, is use windshield defroster paint, to
modify the BSEL code on the contacts, to read FSB1066.
Their claim is, the motherboard behaves better if
fooled into thinking the processor is FSB1066, than
if you use the clock adjustment and set it to 266MHz.
(In my rush to assembly the new system, I didn't spend
time "painting" my processor, so for the moment it is
still at 2.6GHz. Taking my system apart again is not
something I'd enjoy doing right now - my heatsink screws
on from the solder side of the motherboard.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115045

The board does not have a full set of overclocking
features, and a minus is a missing VID control.

Now for the specs part.

SuperPI 1 million digits (either my AthlonXP 3200+ or my P4 at 3.1GHz)
Between 45 and 50 seconds.

SuperPI 1 million digits on E4700, with two sticks memory running DDR2-533.

Got 24 seconds. So not quite a doubling.

SuperPI uses a single core.

In practice, I was surprised to find some things did not
speed up. I have a game with a relatively long load time, and
the new processor really didn't help. And the disk light is
not on continuously for that either, so the loading process
is not disk bound. Whether that is due to the absolutely
crappy VIA memory performance, remains to be seen.

If the processor was $135 and the motherboard around $70 or so,
then you'd have a "side-grade" for about $200.

The reason I did it the way I did, is Win2K only supports 2 cores,
so that decision was an easy one. I wanted to keep my AGP card
for the moment. I could have reused my DDR400 RAM, but opted to
double the amount of RAM, by getting 2x1GB DDR2.

My upgrade isn't particularly clever, but it also isn't
as expensive as doing it right.

Intel(R) Processor Identification Utility
Version: 3.9.20080910
Time Stamp: 2008/11/01 04:28:00
Number of processors in system: 1
Current processor: #1
Cores per processor: 2
Disabled cores per processor: 0
Processor Name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E4700 @ 2.60GHz
Type: 0
Family: 6
Model: F
Stepping: B
Revision: B6
Maximum CPUID Level: A
L1 Instruction Cache: 2 x 32 KB
L1 Data Cache: 2 x 32 KB
L2 Cache: 2 MB
Packaging: LGA775
EIST: Yes ---- Processor, yes, but motherboard ?
MMX(TM): Yes
SSE: Yes
SSE2: Yes
SSE3: Yes
SSE4: No
Enhanced Halt State: No ---- Doesn't seem to have much power management
Execute Disable Bit: No
Hyper-Threading Technology: No
Intel(R) 64 Architectu Yes
Intel(R) Virtualization Technology: No
Expected Processor Frequency: 2.60 GHz
Reported Processor Frequency: 2.60 GHz
Expected System Bus Frequency: 800 MHz
Reported System Bus Frequency: 800 MHz

*******
I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether
there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you
could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you
get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your
box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years,
and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about
the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board
being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new
chip to the board.

The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January),
and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but
if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty.

Paul

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially
melted.


In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a
board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card,
work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory.

Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible.

Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and
upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and
so-forth?

Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available?
--
PeteCresswell


the only place i found a decent 478 board was on ebay and it was not cheap.
that was about six months ago.

"Paul" wrote in message ...
I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether
there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you
could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you
get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your
box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years,
and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about
the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board
being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new
chip to the board.

The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January),
and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but
if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty.

Paul, is there a known issue with ICH5 failures? If so, it sure hasn't
surfaced with any of my IC7-G's. Or are you saying Asus' use of
passive cooling on their motherboards has more to do with it?

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:42:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially
melted.


In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a
board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card,
work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory.

Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible.

Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and
upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and
so-forth?

Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available?

Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like
what you had


http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14

On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:03:00 -0500, bandit wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:42:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Mine just bit the big one. One chip up in smoke/partially
melted.


In the interest of economy, the first thing I'm thinking of is a
board that will take the P4800's CPU, accept it's graphics card,
work with a couple SATA drives, and use it's memory.

Windows XP, hoping to avoid Vista as long as possible.

Am I on the wrong track here? Should I bite the bullet and
upgrade to a more up-to-date MB - buying new memory, CPU, and
so-forth?

Is there even a memory/CPU/SATA-compatible replacement available?

Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like
what you had


http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14


Better yet go down this page there a couple more that look more like
you're

http://computers.shop.ebay.com/items...=p3286.c0.m282

Per bandit:
Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like
what you had


http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14

That's *exactly* what I had.

But I just got back from Micro Center with a new MB....

But I might just buy that one too - since it would give me a nice
cheap backup.... or maybe an extra box...

Thanks
--
PeteCresswell

marcos wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ...
I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether
there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you
could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you
get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your
box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years,
and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about
the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board
being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new
chip to the board.

The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January),
and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but
if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty.

Paul, is there a known issue with ICH5 failures? If so, it sure hasn't
surfaced with any of my IC7-G's. Or are you saying Asus' use of
passive cooling on their motherboards has more to do with it?


It is not "known", as in being generally acknowledged by all the manufacturers.
Gigabyte is the only company to provide a FAQ page (someone else found this
for me). And while ICH4 is mentioned in this article, the evidence in the
news groups, is that ICH5 is far and away the worst chip.

http://tw2005.giga-byte.com/Motherbo...AQ/FAQ_456.htm

The evidence is there for you to examine. The burn mark on the chip,
is right over top of where the USB I/O pads get their power. (I looked
up the ball-out diagram for the chip, and overlaid the picture on
the ball pattern.) The failure is a "latchup type", and the I/O pads
electrically form an SCR (silicon controlled rectifier), a PNPN junction,
which shorts the VDD and VSS at the pad. This causes a couple of amperes of
current to be drawn, causing severe local heating. Even if a heatsink
was placed on top of the chip, it makes no difference to the underlying
mechanism.

Damage can go two ways. If the bond wires or other interconnect, burn out
quickly enough, all that is lost, is all USB functioning. The
Device Manager still shows all USB entries (because the logic blocks
are undamaged). In that case, just the USB I/O pad itself has lost
power, and cannot talk to a USB device any more. People report
that none of their USB interfaces work (all six fail at the same time),
but otherwise the computer is unaffected.

If the bond wires remain intact, the area of the fault starts to heat
up, and irreversible damage takes place. Machines with the burn mark,
no longer boot up.

The issue is, why did it happen in the first place ? I found an Intel
technical journal article, where they make the claim that their
I/O pads have a 6KV resilience to electrostatic discharge, which
is high when compared to a lot of other chips. So if the Intel
design was so bulletproof, why would ESD be causing these latchup
failures ? Many other motherboard designs, with chips from Nvidia,
ATI, VIA, SIS, and so on, don't seem to have this problem.

A second potential cause, might be if the 5V compatible interfaces
on the chip, really aren't 5V compatible. In that case, there may
be a sensitivity to sequencing of power supply rails at startup.
So far, I've only heard of a couple people having chip damage
at boot. The vast majority die while the machine is running,
which is more consistent with some other cause, like ESD.

Passive cooling is perfectly appropriate for that chip, because
its power dissipation and normal operating temperature, make cooling
via the chip top, and via the ball array on the bottom, good enough.
They don't install heatsinks, purely as a means to remove the
heat from an ESD failure. If a heatsink was present, all it
would do, is protect the plastic.

I've experienced latchup failures in the lab, but none of mine
were the major "burn" type failures. There is also something
called "micro latchup", where individual CMOS gates can latch
up, and that causes the chip to malfunction rather than burn.
In that case, the PNPN junction formed, is too weak to cause
a thermal incident.

The above is my own analysis of all of the symptoms provided
by posters. None of the above has been obtained from any
authoritative source, so these theories are my own. The Gigabyte
FAQ points at a potential source of the problem, without laying
blame at Intel's feet in so many words.

Whether you experience a problem or not, may depend on how
much you use the USB ports. One poster lost a total of
four or five motherboards to this problem, and I really
would have liked to understand what the guy was doing to
the boards, to make so many failures show up in one
household. For that one guy at least, he seemed to know
the recipe for disaster.

If you have an ICH5 on the motherboard, I'd at least recommend
that you stop using the USB port on the front panel of the
computer. The rear ports would be marginally safer. And using
a separate PCI USB2 card for USB devices, could extend the life
of the motherboard considerably.

Even the USB ports on PCI cards have been known to fail -
just ask the people who have NEC USB chips on a PCI card,
as to how many ports still work. But when a NEC port fails,
nothing burns.

Paul

Paul wrote:
marcos wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ...
I'm a bit curious about your old board. I've always wondered whether
there is a "hidden warranty" for ICH5/ICH5R failures. Perhaps you
could contact Asus Tech Support, and see what kind of response you
get. Before phoning, you'd want your bill of sale and your
box serial number in front of you. The regular warranty is 3 years,
and I'm curious whether anyone in the industry feels any guilt about
the "combusting ICH5/ICH5R". I've read one report of an Asus board
being repaired under warranty, and they actually soldered a new
chip to the board.

The serial number on my P4C800-E Deluxe is 41xxxxxxxx (= 2004, January),
and my date of purchase is May 17, 2004. Mine is still working, but
if the ICH5R does decide to blow, I'd be outside the 3 year warranty.

Paul, is there a known issue with ICH5 failures? If so, it sure hasn't
surfaced with any of my IC7-G's. Or are you saying Asus' use of
passive cooling on their motherboards has more to do with it?


It is not "known", as in being generally acknowledged by all the
manufacturers.
Gigabyte is the only company to provide a FAQ page (someone else found this
for me). And while ICH4 is mentioned in this article, the evidence in the
news groups, is that ICH5 is far and away the worst chip.

http://tw2005.giga-byte.com/Motherbo...AQ/FAQ_456.htm

The evidence is there for you to examine. The burn mark on the chip,
is right over top of where the USB I/O pads get their power. (I looked
up the ball-out diagram for the chip, and overlaid the picture on
the ball pattern.) The failure is a "latchup type", and the I/O pads
electrically form an SCR (silicon controlled rectifier), a PNPN junction,
which shorts the VDD and VSS at the pad. This causes a couple of amperes of
current to be drawn, causing severe local heating. Even if a heatsink
was placed on top of the chip, it makes no difference to the underlying
mechanism.

Damage can go two ways. If the bond wires or other interconnect, burn out
quickly enough, all that is lost, is all USB functioning. The
Device Manager still shows all USB entries (because the logic blocks
are undamaged). In that case, just the USB I/O pad itself has lost
power, and cannot talk to a USB device any more. People report
that none of their USB interfaces work (all six fail at the same time),
but otherwise the computer is unaffected.

If the bond wires remain intact, the area of the fault starts to heat
up, and irreversible damage takes place. Machines with the burn mark,
no longer boot up.

The issue is, why did it happen in the first place ? I found an Intel
technical journal article, where they make the claim that their
I/O pads have a 6KV resilience to electrostatic discharge, which
is high when compared to a lot of other chips. So if the Intel
design was so bulletproof, why would ESD be causing these latchup
failures ? Many other motherboard designs, with chips from Nvidia,
ATI, VIA, SIS, and so on, don't seem to have this problem.

A second potential cause, might be if the 5V compatible interfaces
on the chip, really aren't 5V compatible. In that case, there may
be a sensitivity to sequencing of power supply rails at startup.
So far, I've only heard of a couple people having chip damage
at boot. The vast majority die while the machine is running,
which is more consistent with some other cause, like ESD.

Passive cooling is perfectly appropriate for that chip, because
its power dissipation and normal operating temperature, make cooling
via the chip top, and via the ball array on the bottom, good enough.
They don't install heatsinks, purely as a means to remove the
heat from an ESD failure. If a heatsink was present, all it
would do, is protect the plastic.

I've experienced latchup failures in the lab, but none of mine
were the major "burn" type failures. There is also something
called "micro latchup", where individual CMOS gates can latch
up, and that causes the chip to malfunction rather than burn.
In that case, the PNPN junction formed, is too weak to cause
a thermal incident.

The above is my own analysis of all of the symptoms provided
by posters. None of the above has been obtained from any
authoritative source, so these theories are my own. The Gigabyte
FAQ points at a potential source of the problem, without laying
blame at Intel's feet in so many words.

Whether you experience a problem or not, may depend on how
much you use the USB ports. One poster lost a total of
four or five motherboards to this problem, and I really
would have liked to understand what the guy was doing to
the boards, to make so many failures show up in one
household. For that one guy at least, he seemed to know
the recipe for disaster.

If you have an ICH5 on the motherboard, I'd at least recommend
that you stop using the USB port on the front panel of the
computer. The rear ports would be marginally safer. And using
a separate PCI USB2 card for USB devices, could extend the life
of the motherboard considerably.

Even the USB ports on PCI cards have been known to fail -
just ask the people who have NEC USB chips on a PCI card,
as to how many ports still work. But when a NEC port fails,
nothing burns.

Here is a photo of a damaged southbridge chip:
http://onfinite.com/libraries/179057/2ea.jpg
I had one P4P800 Deluxe MB lost with an almost identical damage after
having plugged a new mouse in the rear USB connector. After that
replaced the MB and bought a 25 dollar NEC USB board to this computer
and two other computers. They have been running flawlessly for a couple
of years now.

--
th

Per bandit:
Look at this I think it might be what you want it looks just like
what you had


http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P4P800-SE-M...d=p3286.c0.m14

Just pulled the trigger on the order. Now I have a spare that
takes advantage of the memory and CPU in the burned board.

FWIW, the Gigabyte EP45-DS3L/quad processor/high-end GeForce
graphics card/500w power supply that I blew almost five hundred
bucks on is clearly faster, but equally clearly not five hundred
bucks faster.

For my money P4's will be running Windows XP quite usably for a
long time yet.

Thanks again.
--
PeteCresswell