Life expectancy

If it raises your comfort level go for it. Remember UPS's are like cars they
need maintenace, at a minimum a new battery every so often.
"Leythos" wrote in message
...
In article , says...
What is comes down to is simply this ... and this is always
a source of disagreement.

[snip]

You win - but I'm still going to purchase, install, and use common UPS
devices on all of our systems and clients systems because I can see the
benefit of such devices each time there is a change in the AC line power
being supplied to the building.

--
--

(Remove 999 to reply to me)

Before cars had electronic ignitions, I built and installed
one in my late 1960s model. And then wondered why Detroit
could not do same. EPA regulations finally forced Detroit's
bean counters to let the engineers design (even better). Is
your experience (and theoretical training) anywhere near as
comprehensive?

Notice the difference between my posts and other. I keep
insisting on and providing numbers. Numbers alone suggest
underlying knowledge. No numbers suggests a poster has no
knowledge and is probably rationalizing junk science. Numbers
are a benchmark that should have made your question
irrelevant. Since you did not recognize the significance of
numbers, I better understand the breath and depth of your
experience.

How long can all power supply outputs be shorted before a
power supply is destroyed? Knowing of functions that must be
inside a power supply, then that answer is not only easy, but
can be provided with relative numbers. Many computer people
do not know that simple answer, would never understand why,
and do not even know the simple 3 word phrase that summarizes
that answer. But then one of my first jobs was design, debug,
and manufacturer of power supplies. Ever have a large
electrolytic capacitor explode in front of you? One supply
was a hybrid of switching and linear circuits for analog
operation. Of course, those with basic electrical knowledge
would appreciate why. Just more background so that lurkers
can appreciate which one here was posting technical facts and
not urban myths.

Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
experience, training, and education are significant. If you
did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
existed - no numbers required.

notritenoteri wrote:
"Blackout and voltage sags (brownouts) do not harm hardware." where
is this axiom written? Science you say? More like junk science.
This NG is full of people with problems that was caused by
everything from bad design to the wind. How much practical
experience have you had I'm curious. I obviously live on another
planet where the techies are mostly concerned about fixing
the problem. You tell me where I can get one of these power
supplies that is guaranteed not to be responsible in any
fashion whatsover for problems caused by blackouts or brown outs.
I haven't heard of any but I don't know many of the answers in fact
I don't know most of them. WHat an advertising advantage "we
guarantee our power supplies are perfect in the event of
blackouts or brownouts" .

Use facts from cars to discuss a UPS. How long does that
car battery last even in weather extremes? Six years? Nine
years? Battery backup systems in high reliability buildings
are surviving twenty years. So why does that plug-in UPS
battery always in a perfect environment typically last only
three years? Details may be found in technical concepts such
as the battery recharge circuit. So how good is that plug-in
UPS design? Serious battery backup or a disposable one?
These quality questions would be understood by computer
experts those with electrical knowledge. Just another
function that should be inside the box. Is it? Or are they
selling a UPS only on price?

notritenoteri wrote:
If it raises your comfort level go for it. Remember UPS's are like
cars they need maintenace, at a minimum a new battery every so often.

In article ,
Leythos wrote:

In article , says...
Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
experience, training, and education are significant. If you
did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
existed - no numbers required.

I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
sense.


You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.

Try a Google search on:

w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"

and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
you ?

Paul

Just trying to be helpful but I doubt your experience exceeds mine. I
started on an IBM 1620, after my first university degree but hey whose
counting..
BTW UPSs get used all the time IF they're UPS's.
"Leythos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
If it raises your comfort level go for it. Remember UPS's are like cars
they
need maintenace, at a minimum a new battery every so often.

From what I've read, I was working on these things before you were out
of school, I'm more than aware that they need to have the batteries
changed on scheduled intervals, more frequently if they are used
frequently.

And, again, it's not my comfort level that I'm raising, it's customer
down-time and cost related to power problems.

"Leythos" wrote in message
...
In article , says...
What is comes down to is simply this ... and this is always
a source of disagreement.

[snip]

You win - but I'm still going to purchase, install, and use common UPS
devices on all of our systems and clients systems because I can see
the
benefit of such devices each time there is a change in the AC line
power
being supplied to the building.

--
--

(Remove 999 to reply to me)




--
--

(Remove 999 to reply to me)

More BS. You obviously have never contracted for or installed one. All
batteries a have a finite life on them. The warrantee on the batteries is
usually 5 years and replacement is built into the maintenance contract
prices.. Besides except for Mil Sites and big organizations PC style UPSs
have only been around for 10 to 15 years to any great degree. When did the
Apple II Hit the market, April 1977 wasn't it?
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Use facts from cars to discuss a UPS. How long does that
car battery last even in weather extremes? Six years? Nine
years? Battery backup systems in high reliability buildings
are surviving twenty years. So why does that plug-in UPS
battery always in a perfect environment typically last only
three years? Details may be found in technical concepts such
as the battery recharge circuit. So how good is that plug-in
UPS design? Serious battery backup or a disposable one?
These quality questions would be understood by computer
experts those with electrical knowledge. Just another
function that should be inside the box. Is it? Or are they
selling a UPS only on price?

notritenoteri wrote:
If it raises your comfort level go for it. Remember UPS's are like
cars they need maintenace, at a minimum a new battery every so often.

I'm so happy for you. You have your numbers as a comfort and you can design
power supplies and even 1969 style car ignitions just great for the 2005
models. Tell me how do you fix the 90 micron lines on the chips? You must
have really really good eyesight and a steady hand.Your experience training
and education mean bugger all where the rubber meets the road so to speak.
You have obviously never fixed a real world problem if you think a cheap
multi-meter is much use to trouble shooting. Besides board swapping is a
time honoured tradition, the dead board goes back to the lab to be examined
in more detail by educated, experienced and trained monkeys like you .
Except now most of them are just test jigs and they say yes or no. In the
meantime the system is up and running and the guys paying the bills, the
customer are happy and that's what counts -- all the way to the bank.

Can you say pretentious?
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Before cars had electronic ignitions, I built and installed
one in my late 1960s model. And then wondered why Detroit
could not do same. EPA regulations finally forced Detroit's
bean counters to let the engineers design (even better). Is
your experience (and theoretical training) anywhere near as
comprehensive?

Notice the difference between my posts and other. I keep
insisting on and providing numbers. Numbers alone suggest
underlying knowledge. No numbers suggests a poster has no
knowledge and is probably rationalizing junk science. Numbers
are a benchmark that should have made your question
irrelevant. Since you did not recognize the significance of
numbers, I better understand the breath and depth of your
experience.

How long can all power supply outputs be shorted before a
power supply is destroyed? Knowing of functions that must be
inside a power supply, then that answer is not only easy, but
can be provided with relative numbers. Many computer people
do not know that simple answer, would never understand why,
and do not even know the simple 3 word phrase that summarizes
that answer. But then one of my first jobs was design, debug,
and manufacturer of power supplies. Ever have a large
electrolytic capacitor explode in front of you? One supply
was a hybrid of switching and linear circuits for analog
operation. Of course, those with basic electrical knowledge
would appreciate why. Just more background so that lurkers
can appreciate which one here was posting technical facts and
not urban myths.

Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
experience, training, and education are significant. If you
did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
existed - no numbers required.

notritenoteri wrote:
"Blackout and voltage sags (brownouts) do not harm hardware." where
is this axiom written? Science you say? More like junk science.
This NG is full of people with problems that was caused by
everything from bad design to the wind. How much practical
experience have you had I'm curious. I obviously live on another
planet where the techies are mostly concerned about fixing
the problem. You tell me where I can get one of these power
supplies that is guaranteed not to be responsible in any
fashion whatsover for problems caused by blackouts or brown outs.
I haven't heard of any but I don't know many of the answers in fact
I don't know most of them. WHat an advertising advantage "we
guarantee our power supplies are perfect in the event of
blackouts or brownouts" .

Leythos wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article ,
Leythos wrote:


In article , says...

Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
experience, training, and education are significant. If you
did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
existed - no numbers required.

I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
sense.


You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.

Try a Google search on:

w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"

and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
you ?


I don't really consider him an "opponent" more of a techno-spec freak.
While his information does provide some insight into protecting systems
from power problems, it's lacking any real-world experience. Anyone
that's used/purchased a UPS due to prior problems with power already
knows about the true and realized benefits of having one vs not having
one.

I see considerable merit in both perspectives.

Many years have passed since I graduated from electrical engineering at
college level, but w_tom's lectures ring true - in an ideal world, any
outlet you might have available to plug your electronics into would be
downstream of a whole building grounding system designed by experts in
the field in accordance with best practice and incorporating due
consideration for local conditions. In this ideal world, additional
surge suppressors within the building would provide no benefit, and the
utility of UPS systems would be limited to their ability to reduce data
corruption and downtime in the event of power outages or significant
voltage variations. As w_tom is at pains to point out, it is indeed
shortsighted of 'humans' to neglect proper grounding system design
during construction, since it is highly cost effective then but
frequently impractical to retrofit.

On the other hand, while I was in college my Dad was paying for it with
profits from volume sales of plug-in surge suppressors to corporations
with hundreds of PCs - and using their testimonials in subsequent
advertising. w_tom is big on numbers, but the only statistic I recall
was from a customer with ~2500 PCs who reported a 40% year-over-year
reduction in PC hardware failures after installing the surge suppressors.

Would this customer have achieved even better results by retrofitting
building grounding systems instead? Probably, see w_tom's lectures ;-)

Would retrofitting building grounding systems have been more cost
effective? Unknown - this would have involved negotiations with numerous
landlords and was not seriously pursued.

Did the manager who signed the surge suppressor purchase order have
authority to order grounding system retrofits instead? Absolutely not!


P2B

In article , P2B
wrote:

Leythos wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article ,
Leythos wrote:


In article , says...

Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
experience, training, and education are significant. If you
did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
existed - no numbers required.

I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
sense.


You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.

Try a Google search on:

w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"

and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
you ?


I don't really consider him an "opponent" more of a techno-spec freak.
While his information does provide some insight into protecting systems
from power problems, it's lacking any real-world experience. Anyone
that's used/purchased a UPS due to prior problems with power already
knows about the true and realized benefits of having one vs not having
one.

I see considerable merit in both perspectives.

Many years have passed since I graduated from electrical engineering at
college level, but w_tom's lectures ring true - in an ideal world, any
outlet you might have available to plug your electronics into would be
downstream of a whole building grounding system designed by experts in
the field in accordance with best practice and incorporating due
consideration for local conditions. In this ideal world, additional
surge suppressors within the building would provide no benefit, and the
utility of UPS systems would be limited to their ability to reduce data
corruption and downtime in the event of power outages or significant
voltage variations. As w_tom is at pains to point out, it is indeed
shortsighted of 'humans' to neglect proper grounding system design
during construction, since it is highly cost effective then but
frequently impractical to retrofit.

On the other hand, while I was in college my Dad was paying for it with
profits from volume sales of plug-in surge suppressors to corporations
with hundreds of PCs - and using their testimonials in subsequent
advertising. w_tom is big on numbers, but the only statistic I recall
was from a customer with ~2500 PCs who reported a 40% year-over-year
reduction in PC hardware failures after installing the surge suppressors.

Would this customer have achieved even better results by retrofitting
building grounding systems instead? Probably, see w_tom's lectures ;-)

Would retrofitting building grounding systems have been more cost
effective? Unknown - this would have involved negotiations with numerous
landlords and was not seriously pursued.

Did the manager who signed the surge suppressor purchase order have
authority to order grounding system retrofits instead? Absolutely not!


P2B

I'll be honest with you. I didn't read any of w_toms posts in this
thread. It is his presentation style that irks me. I've read some
of the threads he's participated in before. If he is trying to
be helpful, he picks a funny way to do it at times. Antagonizing
the people in your thread doesn't help.

Based on the wide range of news groups that end up with "surge
protector" threads like this, w_tom seems to use Google, to find
any group that is discussing surge protectors. There is nothing
wrong with that, as long as your sole purpose is not to pick fights
with people or hijack the thread they have started.

http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=w_t...e+protector%22

If anything, w_toms threads draw the best from other participants
in the thread. For example, I just noticed a reference to this product:

http://brickwall.com/howwork.htm

Certainly a different approach to the problem. Seems to be a subject
filled with loads of claims and counter-claims.

Paul

Review some false claims confronted in this thread followed
by an answer to the OP's original question.

Surge protectors don't operate fast enough. Claim was made
based upon insufficient technical knowledge. Claim confronted
with numbers. Author no longer makes that claim.

"in this country buildings are well enough grounded to be
safe in most circumstances". But that grounding is for human
safety. Earthing for transistor safety is significantly
different. We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Authors eventually abandoned that claim.

Ground Fault indicators and joules were noted in UPS as if
these provided hardware protection. Demonstrated was that
Ground Fault Indicator does not and could not detect a failed
earth ground. That joules alone don't prove protection is
being provided (which explains many 'protectors' with
insufficient joules). Author never challenged that facts;
having noted that grounding requirement in an earlier post.

"the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
against rare events is probably not worth it". And so he
would recommend spending $15 or $50 per protected appliance on
ineffective plug-in protectors rather than $1 per protected
appliance for an effective 'whole house' protector? He would
spend $thoundands on ineffective protectors? No wonder he
thought protection costs so much. The effective protector
costs tens of times less money. Author conceded that fact.

"uncontrolled power loss does impact the life expectancy of
the hardware systems" was stated only based upon a personal
opinion. Supporting facts were never provided. No components
could be identified as damaged by uncontrolled power loss.
Electronics sees same power down whether it is from an
unexpected power loss or normal shutdown. If unexpected power
loss impacts hardware life expectancy, then so does normal
power off. Author never could say why power loss was so
destructive nor could he identify parts that are damaged.
Author repeatedly made claims but could not explain why normal
power down also did not do same damage.

Once it was apparent that he could not challenge facts, an
author then resorted to claiming I did not have practical
experience. Even when examples of extensive design and
operation experience were provided, he continued his claims.
Why? He had no facts. He was left only to claim I could not
know the facts; only he could be correct because he had
experience (without the essential underlying theory).

The discussion ended here. Not able to dispute the facts -
starting with a myth that surge protectors operate too slow -
author is now left claiming only he has worldly experience.
Implied is an admission that the author also has no 'book
learning'. Author is even invited to define essential
functions that must be inside a power supply. He cannot.
Common among those who recommend a plug-in UPS to protect
hardware but don't know why.

One claim never made: a warranty proves that plug-in UPSes
or power strip protectors are effective hardware protection.
That would be another common myth that others use when
technical knowledge is insufficient.

Fact remains that a protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. Earthing is how serious, high reliability
facilities have done it for generations. Earthing is why the
telephone company's $multi-million dollar computer, connected
to overhead wires everywhere in town, need not shutdown during
thunderstorms. Single point earth ground is how effective
protection can be installed for tens of times less money
compared to plug-in protectors.

Returning to the OP's question. Asus motherboard life
expectancy can be preserved by addressing technical issues
such as the power supply. Too many power supplies (especially
those sold only on price) are missing essential functions -
such as circuits that protect motherboard. For typically
destructive transients, earthing every incoming utility to a
single point earth ground is essential. Connection made
either by hardware or via a 'whole house' protector. A good
power supply and a good single point earth ground is essential
to Asus motherboard life expectancy. And, or course, static
electric precautions since a static electric shock today can
cause a motherboard failure tomorrow or next month.

UPS is for data protection. Plug-in UPS does not provide
effective hardware protection. Anything inside a UPS that
would preserve life of a Asus motherboard are functions inside
a minimally acceptable power supply.

Travis King wrote:
What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I
take good care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the
computer for the most part constantly except when I leave town or
do something with the inside of the computer. Current MB
temperature is at 30 C.