Life expectancy

No no tell us how you make sure ground loops don't occur in a large multi
floor building with literally hundreds of power consuming devices at a real
reasonable cost.

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Ground loops is why surge protection must be the single
point ground. Problems created by ground loop (the damaged
fax machine) is demonstrated by the NIST figure and previously
cited discussion in:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Which would you believe? Lies promoted by half truths on
retail store shelves? Or fact demonstrated by telephone and
911 emergency operators who never need remove headsets during
every lightning storm. Effective protection is demonstrated by
telephone switching computers that connect to overhead wires
everywhere in town. Its not called faith. Its called facts.
1) Demonstrated by theory and 2) proven by example virtually
everywhere in the civilized world.

Posted was well understood and repeatedly proven even before
WWII. One classic myths is that surge protectors operate too
slow. Even the GDTs that routinely provided surge protection
before WWII and that were much slower were also fast enough
for surge protection. These are facts know to those who
understood how surge protectors work. 'Surge protector works
too slow' is but another myth. Obviously a myth because it is
routinely promoted without numbers. One must believe such
myths only on faith.

notritenoteri wrote:
Are you selling lightening protection? You have so much faith. Tell
us about ground loops.

If I were you I'd be worrying more about the state of the power company's
feed. If you live in a fairly new development say less tha 10 years old its
likley to be in pretty good shape. WHere you might have an issue with
grounding and the general state of the power grid is on an old
neighbourhood. What no one has mentioned is that grounding rods etc
eventually corrode.
BAck up your data. In my opinion you're worrying about the wrong stuff. I've
had a PC at home since the Apple II and never had power surge or brown out
problems. I've been wiped out by data loss though because I don't practice
what I preach and I was in the Data centre business.
"Milleron" wrote in message
...
My house was built this year, so its earthing should be up to 1990
national building codes. But how can I be sure the builder did it
correctly? I don't think this is anything that the local building
inspector can test. I doubt he could tell the difference between a
10-inch grounding rod and one that was driven 20 feet into the ground,
if he even inspects this feature at all. How can I tell if my house
is earthed correctly?

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:28:21 -0500, w_tom wrote:

Plug in protectors claim to protect from one type of surge.
Do some punching. As one arm swings out, the other
withdrawals. That 1-2 punching is an example of a surge that
typically does not do damage. Now instead punch with both
left and right arms simultaneously. That is the common mode
surge that typically damages electronics.

Lightning seeks earth ground. It comes down any and all
'arms', passes through punching bag, and exits out other side
of punching bag. The plug-in protector does not stop, block,
or absorb such destructive surges. IOW it does not sit
between surge and the electronics - even though they hope you
will assume that. And effective protector connects earlier
where wires enter the building so that the 'surge down all
wires simultaneously' all find the same earth ground.

Lightning in 1752 found earth ground destructively via a
church steeple. Franklin simply gave lightning a better path
to earth. Lightning is the 'all arms moving forward at the
same time" type of surge. You don't stop, block, or filter
what miles of sky could not even stop. You 'shunt' lightning
to earth ground. That is also what the 'whole house'
protector does. It provides lightning with a short path to
earth ground.

You are surprised how small the Cutler Hammer unit is. It
need not be large because it does not stop, block, or absorb
the energy. Wire is also not massive because it too carry
massive electrical energy and does not try to stop or block
it. A surge protector is nothing more than a wire. A wire
that conducts only during the rare and short transient. It
can be small because the transient is only in microseconds.

In a parallel example, try to push a common nail into wood.
You cannot. It takes the force of a backhoe to drive that
nail. However, we hit that nail with only a 20 oz hammer.
Does the human arm have same energy as the backhoe? Of course
not. People often confuse energy with power. The hammer has
low energy but high power. Lightning has low energy but high
power. The protector need not be monstrous because 1) it does
not stop or absorb the energy, and 2) the energy is not as
massive as urban myths portray. Too many only 'feel' that a
lightning strike is high energy.

The electrical circuit is best demonstrated by an NIST
figure used in an example from:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
They demonstrate why a fax machine was damaged. Notice that
the phone line was not 'earthed' less than 10 feet to the same
single point ground as AC electric. Telephone line protector
is inside the box labeled NID.

The 'whole house' protector is located where 'Arrestor' is
labeled. Notice that the destructive surge goes through
Arrestor, then to earth ground. Since it need not pass
through fax machine to get earth ground, then an AC electric
surge does not damage fax machine.

All electronic appliances contain effective protection.
Anything that is going to work on the end of a power cord
(those grossly overpriced plug-in protectors) is already
inside electronics - as even required by industry standards.
But we worry that internal electronics protection might be
overwhelmed. So we install a 'whole house' protector on every
incoming utility wire - to same earth ground.

Demonstrated in various posts is the AC electric 'whole
house' protector (such as the Cutler Hammer), the telco
provided protector, and a ground block for cable wire (no
protector required). All are only as effective as that earth
ground.

Now about earthing. Engineered discussed this in two
discussions in the newsgroup misc.rural entitled:
Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv and http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Depending on the problem with transients, the earth ground
may need be enhanced. Important is the neighborhood history.
Also important is the geology. Does the ground tend to
attract more CG lightning? For example, mid-west storms may
be spectacular, but most of the lightning remains sky to sky.
WV is a region with high numbers of CG (cloud to ground)
strikes per thunderstorm.

Those discussions also mention equipotential which is why
Ufer grounds and halo grounds make the protector even more
effective.

Also is earth conductive or is it sand. I believe that
previous discussion also tells a story of a house struck
multiple times - and lightning rods did not work. Why?
Lightning rods were earthed poorly in non-conductive sand.
Bottom line - a surge protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. In most locations, a single ground rod may
provide massive increase in protection. A house that does not
at least meet post 1990 National Electrical Code earthing
requirements does not have the necessary earth ground.

Also in that misc.rural discussion would be how wire must be
routed. For example, no sharp bends and no splices. A ground
wire bundled with other wires may only induce more surges on
that other wire (which is but another reason why plug-in
protectors have no effective earth ground).

There is much to read. Come back with questions. The
simple earthing of surges is surprisingly not intuitively
obvious. In discussing this, I was amazed how many don't even
know what a Ben Franklin air terminal (lightning rod) does -
AND yet would recommend surge protectors. Many even argue
pointed verse blunt lighting rods - when earth ground defines
the effectiveness of that rod. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.
snip
Ron

Lets assume a protector adjacent to a computer will earth a
100 amp transient via that wall receptacle. Due to wire
impedance, that 50 foot of 12 AWG wire (back to circuit
breaker box) may be about 130 ohms impedance (not resistance -
impedance). 100 amps times 130 ohms is 13,000 volts. Will
that 100 amp transient find earth ground via 13,000 volts of
wire? Of course not. Those 100 amps will find other
(destructive) paths to earth ground such as through a mouse
wire touching the baseboard heat and via the computer's
modem. Notice how a modem is damaged.

Furthermore, if that 50 foot of 12 AWG wire is earthing a
100 amp transient, then that ground wire induces transients on
all adjacent wires. Now we have surges on other equipment
thanks to that plug-in protector. Where is the protection?
How does that 130 ohm impedance of wire create an earth ground
AND not create induced transients?

Wall receptacle does not provide an earth ground. Just
another reason why the plug-in protector manufacturer fears to
even discuss earthing. That wall receptacle (and plug-in
protector) has all but no earth ground. And as we know even
from pre-WWII GE and Westinghouse science papers - no earth
ground means no effective protection.

Wall receptacles provide 'safety' or 'equipment' ground.
They are not 'earth ground' due to too much wire impedance.
Wire impedance is a basic electrical concept that plug-in
protector manufacturers hope you will not learn - to sell
their ineffective, undersized, and overpriced product to the
naive.

Why must a 'whole house' protector make a 'less than 10
foot' connection to earth ground? Why must earthing wire have
no sharp bends and no splices and not be inside metallic
conduit? Why must the earthing wire remain separated from
other wires? Same reasons that a wall receptacle is not earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. So
plug-in manufacturers avoid the entire topic hoping others
will promote myths. Leythos has promoted that myth: "Every
outlet in the house has a earth ground ..."

What does a ground fault indicator on that UPS report? It
reports a defective safety ground. It cannot report a good
safety ground. It can only report when the safety ground is
defective. Furthermore, that UPS ground indicator says
nothing - zero - about earth ground. But they hope others
will confuse the word 'ground' with 'earth' to promote
protector myths.

Leythos wrote:
My house, built in the early 70's, here in the USA, has a large ground
rod just outside the house, within about 4' of the breaker panel. Every
outlet in the house has a earth ground in addition to the neutral (three
prong receptacles). Each of my UPS's has ground fault indicator.

I'll keep using the APC UPS's I have, I've seen what happens when people
don't protect their electronics.

To understand a surge, one must first draw a complete
electric circuit. Charges from a cloud may fall 4 kilometers
to the east. Now a cloud must connect those cloud borne
charges to earth borne charges. What, electrically, is the
shortest path? 5 kilometers diagonally? Of course not. The
shortest electrical path is 3 kilometers directly down to AC
electric utility wires. Then 2 kilometers east through
underground (or overhead) utility wires to the end of the
block. Then through transformer (or household appliances)
into earth. Then another 2 kilometers east through earth to
those earth borne charges. Now we have a complete circuit.
Anything that has both an incoming and outgoing path in that
circuit may be damaged. Homes are the end of a utility
distribution system may become an incoming and outgoing path
in that circuit.

Other transformers may have been an incoming path. But with
no outgoing electrical path, those other transformers would
suffer no damage. Some then assume lightning is capricious.
Reality: those humans failed to first remember their
elementary school science. Both incoming and outgoing path
must exist to have electricity flow. Electricity of a
destructive surge would only pass through the last
transformer.

Milleron wrote:
Interesting point about being the last house on the street. Several
years ago, we had a nasty summer electrical storm in central Ohio that
knocked out power to many homes and neighborhoods. We had no
lightning real close to my house, but we lost power. We have
underground wiring with transformers every so often. I'm sure it's
exactly like overhead wires. At any rate the crew that came out
pointed out that our transformer was the LAST one in a long chain.
They thought the strike was distant and surged all the way to that
point. It ruined our transformer (took 30 hours to replace it), but
there was no damage at all in any of the houses that drew power from
that particular transformer. What happened in this scenario? If the
surge went to earth at that point, what killed the transformer without
hurting any of the transformers farther up the line?

How did the 100 amps get to the wall receptacle? Assuming that it came
from outside, then, by exactly the same 'logic' that you are using, it
should have been grounded through "other paths to earth ground" long
before it got there. If lightning is going to strike your computer
room, or even (probably) your house, under which circumstances your
example might be more realistic, there is probably little you can do
to save your hardware. If you calculate _instantaneous_ charge flow at
a wall socket at the peak of a big, lightning-induced, transient, you
may come up with tens or hundreds of amps as an answer, but it isn't
really helpful or meaningful to use normal concepts of current flow in
thinking about very short (microseconds) transients.

In any event, no protective device will block 100% of a transient
(true UPSes possible excepted, since they should totally disconnect
the mains from the supplied device). The object of in-line surge
suppressors is to provide a sufficiently low impedance path to ground
for the peak of the transient that the power that gets through via the
(typically much higher impedance) path through the protected equipment
is not sufficient to do damage. It's like home security - the object
there is not to make your house thief-proof, which is next to
impossible, but to make it sufficiently challenging for the potential
thief that (s)he will look elsewhere.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 03:34:55 -0500, w_tom wrote:

Lets assume a protector adjacent to a computer will earth a
100 amp transient via that wall receptacle. Due to wire
impedance, that 50 foot of 12 AWG wire (back to circuit
breaker box) may be about 130 ohms impedance (not resistance -
impedance). 100 amps times 130 ohms is 13,000 volts. Will
that 100 amp transient find earth ground via 13,000 volts of
wire? Of course not. Those 100 amps will find other
(destructive) paths to earth ground such as through a mouse
wire touching the baseboard heat and via the computer's
modem. Notice how a modem is damaged.

Furthermore, if that 50 foot of 12 AWG wire is earthing a
100 amp transient, then that ground wire induces transients on
all adjacent wires. Now we have surges on other equipment
thanks to that plug-in protector. Where is the protection?
How does that 130 ohm impedance of wire create an earth ground
AND not create induced transients?

Wall receptacle does not provide an earth ground. Just
another reason why the plug-in protector manufacturer fears to
even discuss earthing. That wall receptacle (and plug-in
protector) has all but no earth ground. And as we know even
from pre-WWII GE and Westinghouse science papers - no earth
ground means no effective protection.

Wall receptacles provide 'safety' or 'equipment' ground.
They are not 'earth ground' due to too much wire impedance.
Wire impedance is a basic electrical concept that plug-in
protector manufacturers hope you will not learn - to sell
their ineffective, undersized, and overpriced product to the
naive.

Why must a 'whole house' protector make a 'less than 10
foot' connection to earth ground? Why must earthing wire have
no sharp bends and no splices and not be inside metallic
conduit? Why must the earthing wire remain separated from
other wires? Same reasons that a wall receptacle is not earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. So
plug-in manufacturers avoid the entire topic hoping others
will promote myths. Leythos has promoted that myth: "Every
outlet in the house has a earth ground ..."

What does a ground fault indicator on that UPS report? It
reports a defective safety ground. It cannot report a good
safety ground. It can only report when the safety ground is
defective. Furthermore, that UPS ground indicator says
nothing - zero - about earth ground. But they hope others
will confuse the word 'ground' with 'earth' to promote
protector myths.

Leythos wrote:
My house, built in the early 70's, here in the USA, has a large ground
rod just outside the house, within about 4' of the breaker panel. Every
outlet in the house has a earth ground in addition to the neutral (three
prong receptacles). Each of my UPS's has ground fault indicator.

I'll keep using the APC UPS's I have, I've seen what happens when people
don't protect their electronics.


Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher

This whole discussion is turning into a big show-boat of technical
knowledge. Somebody went to college I went to college too two degrees worth
and I managed a university data centre for 17 years I've spent most of my
career in the IT industry mostly in telecom and facilities management. I
don't know bugger all, really. Anecdotal evidence, racial memories or
whatever you want to call it suggest lightening and surges aren't a problem
at least in my part of the world. What I do know is that in North America in
Canada where I live which believe it or not has lightening storms even in
January, lightening is a minor inconvenience with the standards that are in
place. Interruption of service is an issue but a real UPS with the proper
maintenance (both money issues not problems) will solve that.
The big deal is loss of data. Whoever started this thread is worrying about
the wrong thing in my opinion but hey that's what salesmen count on.


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Lets assume a protector adjacent to a computer will earth a
100 amp transient via that wall receptacle. Due to wire
impedance, that 50 foot of 12 AWG wire (back to circuit
breaker box) may be about 130 ohms impedance (not resistance -
impedance). 100 amps times 130 ohms is 13,000 volts. Will
that 100 amp transient find earth ground via 13,000 volts of
wire? Of course not. Those 100 amps will find other
(destructive) paths to earth ground such as through a mouse
wire touching the baseboard heat and via the computer's
modem. Notice how a modem is damaged.

Furthermore, if that 50 foot of 12 AWG wire is earthing a
100 amp transient, then that ground wire induces transients on
all adjacent wires. Now we have surges on other equipment
thanks to that plug-in protector. Where is the protection?
How does that 130 ohm impedance of wire create an earth ground
AND not create induced transients?

Wall receptacle does not provide an earth ground. Just
another reason why the plug-in protector manufacturer fears to
even discuss earthing. That wall receptacle (and plug-in
protector) has all but no earth ground. And as we know even
from pre-WWII GE and Westinghouse science papers - no earth
ground means no effective protection.

Wall receptacles provide 'safety' or 'equipment' ground.
They are not 'earth ground' due to too much wire impedance.
Wire impedance is a basic electrical concept that plug-in
protector manufacturers hope you will not learn - to sell
their ineffective, undersized, and overpriced product to the
naive.

Why must a 'whole house' protector make a 'less than 10
foot' connection to earth ground? Why must earthing wire have
no sharp bends and no splices and not be inside metallic
conduit? Why must the earthing wire remain separated from
other wires? Same reasons that a wall receptacle is not earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. So
plug-in manufacturers avoid the entire topic hoping others
will promote myths. Leythos has promoted that myth: "Every
outlet in the house has a earth ground ..."

What does a ground fault indicator on that UPS report? It
reports a defective safety ground. It cannot report a good
safety ground. It can only report when the safety ground is
defective. Furthermore, that UPS ground indicator says
nothing - zero - about earth ground. But they hope others
will confuse the word 'ground' with 'earth' to promote
protector myths.

Leythos wrote:
My house, built in the early 70's, here in the USA, has a large ground
rod just outside the house, within about 4' of the breaker panel. Every
outlet in the house has a earth ground in addition to the neutral (three
prong receptacles). Each of my UPS's has ground fault indicator.

I'll keep using the APC UPS's I have, I've seen what happens when people
don't protect their electronics.

How does 100 amps get to a wall receptacle? Destructive
transients are current sources. That means voltage will
increase, as necessary, to maintain that 100 amps. If 100 amps
into the protector and adjacent computer requires thousands of
volts, then thousands of volts will be provided. However if
something else closer makes the earth ground connection, then
voltage need not increase to maintain 100 amps. Instead that
closer computer, or TV, or modem becomes the destroyed
appliance. If permitted inside a building, that surge will
find some destructive path to earth ground via appliances.
This is called a direct strike. Human failure is required to
permit a surge inside the building.

If lightning strikes your house - IOW strikes AC electric
wires on a utility pole - AND if electronic damage occurs,
then you (the human) are reason for that failure. Two
reasons. 1) Because effective surge protection is available,
so effective, and understood for so long. 2) Because
effective surge protection is so inexpensive - tens of times
less money per appliance compared to plug-in protectors.

Don't post this myth: "no protective device will block 100%
of a transient". Only mythical protectors block, stop, filter
or absorb destructive transients. Effective protectors
'shunt' surges. That means an effective protector is located
at the service entrance AND connected 'less than 10 foot' to
earth ground. So effective and so inexpensive that surge
damage is considered unnecessary.

You need not install such protection. No law requires it.
But it is grossly irresponsible to tell others that no
protector device will work. They worked just fine even before
WWII, as even demonstrated in peer reviewed science papers.
The Empire State Building is struck about 25 times per year.
Where is all the FM and TV electronics damage?

Why does a 'building wide' (real) UPS provide protection?
UPS also does not stop, block or absorb surges. Again, those
verbs would only promote myths. The 'real' UPS includes a
'whole house' protector circuit. A UPS that does provide
effective protection is also typically connected 'less than 10
foot' to single point earth ground. Same principles apply.

A protector adjacent to appliances does not provide
effective protection, is typically undersized, and costs tens
of times more money per protected appliance. How to identify
the ineffective protector? 1) It has no dedicated earthing
connection AND 2) it avoids all discussion about earthing.
Two simple statements identify effective protection.

How to install effective protection? Spend less money. Use
well proven human knowledge. Earth before destructive
transients can enter a building. Never think a surge
protector will stop or block surges no matter how often that
myth is promoted. A surge protector is only as effective as
its earth ground.

"Peter R. Fletcher" wrote:
How did the 100 amps get to the wall receptacle? Assuming that it came
from outside, then, by exactly the same 'logic' that you are using, it
should have been grounded through "other paths to earth ground" long
before it got there. If lightning is going to strike your computer
room, or even (probably) your house, under which circumstances your
example might be more realistic, there is probably little you can do
to save your hardware. If you calculate _instantaneous_ charge flow at
a wall socket at the peak of a big, lightning-induced, transient, you
may come up with tens or hundreds of amps as an answer, but it isn't
really helpful or meaningful to use normal concepts of current flow in
thinking about very short (microseconds) transients.

In any event, no protective device will block 100% of a transient
(true UPSes possible excepted, since they should totally disconnect
the mains from the supplied device). The object of in-line surge
suppressors is to provide a sufficiently low impedance path to ground
for the peak of the transient that the power that gets through via the
(typically much higher impedance) path through the protected equipment
is not sufficient to do damage. It's like home security - the object
there is not to make your house thief-proof, which is next to
impossible, but to make it sufficiently challenging for the potential
thief that (s)he will look elsewhere.

If power loss creates damage, then what electronic parts are
damaged? To claim a blackout causes damage means failed
electronic parts are identified. I do this. I learned by
replacing parts AND tracing the destructive circuit to its
source. Power loss damages computer hardware when a human
buys defective hardware - often because he 'saved' money. An
electrician temporarily disconnecting a neutral wire can also
destroy electronics. Was that damage from the resulting
blackout? No. Blackout was only another symptom of the
failure. Too many only assume damage was created by the
blackout only because damaged happened. This is how junk
science reasoning gets promoted.

Purpose of an adjacent UPS is as notritenoteri has posted:
to protect data. A plug-in UPS contains same protector
circuit found in power strip protectors. How do you know?
The numbers. Review numbers on both that plug-in UPS and for
power strip protector. What are both protector circuits rated
in? Joules. Why? They both use the same protector
circuit. Why is a plug-in UPS any better than a power strip
protector? It is not. They both have the same protector
circuit. IOW they both claim the same ineffective
protection. Neither provides superior protection.

You want 'data' protection? Install the UPS. You want
'hardware' protection? Earth ground every incoming utility
wire either by direct hardwire connection or via a surge
protector. Some earthing connections are even required by
electrical codes. Power loss does not damage hardware.
Unfortunately much computer hardware purchased by computer
assemblers is defective by design - as demonstrated by what is
damaged.

The original poster asked how to prolong an Asus
motherboard. One solution starts with power supply
selection. Many power supplies installed by computer
assemblers are missing essential functions. Inferior supplies
may even fail during power loss. Many essential power supply
functions may exist only if the manufacturer includes a long
list of numeric specs. Numbered specs are essential. But
again, these numbers are too complex for those computer
assemblers who instead may blame a blackout. No numeric
specifications with that power supply? Then expect weird
failures - such as damage created by a blackout or even Asus
motherboard damage.

Leythos wrote:
I agree with the above, and I was pretty sure that I said the same thing
- power loss is what we experience the most, and uncontrolled power loss
does impact the life expectancy of the hardware systems.

What is comes down to is simply this ... and this is always
a source of disagreement. Engineers first learn both the
underlying theory of what happens AND also identify the
failure at each individual component. It is the standard
requirement of understanding the problem both theoretically
and experimentally. That is called science. Sometimes a
technician will see a failure, see that it coincided with an
event, and the associate the two as same. And so we have this
myth about power blackouts causing hardware problems.

Blackout and voltage sags (brownouts) do not harm hardware.
UPSes may be helpful for hardware protection WHEN that
hardware is defective. One source of motherboard damage are
power supplies that do not contain essential functions. Power
supplies often purchased by computer assemblers who only
understand one number - price. If a blackout or brownout
causes hardware damage or other power related service calls,
then the hardware was defective when purchased and installed
by that shameful computer assembler.

Some details. Just because a UPS has a joules rating does
not mean it features protection. Basic technical knowledge
would make that obvious. UPSes and power strip protectors
both have joules ratings. IOW both provide same protection
using same protector circuit. Both provide same ineffective
protection for the same repeated reason using the same
circuit.

Power supplies have no warning about power cycling because
power cycling is not a problem to properly designed power
supplies. In the world of rumors, power cycling causes
damage. Again, that can occur when hardware is missing
essential functions that were common even 30 years ago. It is
a problem created by bean counter mentalities who promote
themselves as computer experts.

You can blame problems on anything but the human. Its
easy. The user would not know differently. And
unfortunately, either do so many computer assemblers who never
even learned basic functions of power supplies and UPSes. For
example, the Ground Fault Indicator does not say anything
about earth ground. Its function is not relevant to anything
in this discussion. To test earth ground, the UPS would
require a complete electric circuit through Earth ground.
Where is the complete circuit through Earth ground? It does
not exist - obviously it does not exist.

That Ground Fault indicator only reports a defective SAFETY
ground. Safety ground is different from earth ground even
though both share some components. Furthermore, that Ground
Fault Indicator cannot even report a good Safety ground. It
can only report when the Safety ground is defective AND says
absolutely nothing about Earth ground. But the Ground Fault
Indicator can have technicians confusing Safety ground with
Earth ground to promote the myths about hardware protection.

A plug-in UPS is only for data protection. Hardware
protection of the Asus motherboard is provided by things such
as a 'whole house' protector AND by a power supply that
actually meets Intel specs - requirements that were standard
even 30 years ago. Many power supplies today do not even
contain functions considered essential 30 years ago. That
would explain hardware damage and other power related
problems.

Leythos wrote:
You know, what it really comes down to is this: Like it or not, those
crude devices you say have no merit, actually save people from data loss
and hardware loss more times that I can count.

Not every cheap PSU comes with a warning about cycling AC power source
to many times or too frequently, in fact, I don't know of ANY PSU that
comes with that warning.

It's still a simple matter of experience in most cases a UPS
(residential device connected to a line with ground) is going to be of
more benefit that not having the device.

When I was at the local computer store today I looked at every unit, all
but one claimed joules protection level, most had ground fault
indicators and reverse polarity indicators (meaning a swapped hot/neut).

As a good example of how well a UPS works, we had a new client that had
no UPS's in their buildings - not one and 70+ computers. On the average
they required service related to power problems at least once a week (8
buildings across the USA). After installing the UPS's at each device,
there were no more power related service calls, not more lost data, and
no more devices that were "broken" by storms. Even when other hardware
in the buildings, not protected by a UPS was damaged, the computers
protected by them were fine.

So, you can list all the technical spec's, the NEC, and anything else
you want, but the simple fact is that a UPS, even a cheap one, will pay
for itself after the first power outage or other event where the systems
survive.

"Blackout and voltage sags (brownouts) do not harm hardware." where is this
axiom written? Science you say? More like junk science. This NG is full of
people with problems that was caused by everything from bad design to the
wind. How much practical experience have you had I'm curious. I obviously
live on another planet where the techies are mostly concerned about fixing
the problem. You tell me where I can get one of these power supplies that
is guaranteed not to be responsible in any fashion whatsover for problems
caused by blackouts or brown outs. I haven't heard of any but I don't know
many of the answers in fact I don't know most of them. WHat an advertising
advantage "we guarantee our power supplies are perfect in the event of
blackouts or brownouts" .
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
What is comes down to is simply this ... and this is always
a source of disagreement. Engineers first learn both the
underlying theory of what happens AND also identify the
failure at each individual component. It is the standard
requirement of understanding the problem both theoretically
and experimentally. That is called science. Sometimes a
technician will see a failure, see that it coincided with an
event, and the associate the two as same. And so we have this
myth about power blackouts causing hardware problems.

Blackout and voltage sags (brownouts) do not harm hardware.
UPSes may be helpful for hardware protection WHEN that
hardware is defective. One source of motherboard damage are
power supplies that do not contain essential functions. Power
supplies often purchased by computer assemblers who only
understand one number - price. If a blackout or brownout
causes hardware damage or other power related service calls,
then the hardware was defective when purchased and installed
by that shameful computer assembler.

Some details. Just because a UPS has a joules rating does
not mean it features protection. Basic technical knowledge
would make that obvious. UPSes and power strip protectors
both have joules ratings. IOW both provide same protection
using same protector circuit. Both provide same ineffective
protection for the same repeated reason using the same
circuit.

Power supplies have no warning about power cycling because
power cycling is not a problem to properly designed power
supplies. In the world of rumors, power cycling causes
damage. Again, that can occur when hardware is missing
essential functions that were common even 30 years ago. It is
a problem created by bean counter mentalities who promote
themselves as computer experts.

You can blame problems on anything but the human. Its
easy. The user would not know differently. And
unfortunately, either do so many computer assemblers who never
even learned basic functions of power supplies and UPSes. For
example, the Ground Fault Indicator does not say anything
about earth ground. Its function is not relevant to anything
in this discussion. To test earth ground, the UPS would
require a complete electric circuit through Earth ground.
Where is the complete circuit through Earth ground? It does
not exist - obviously it does not exist.

That Ground Fault indicator only reports a defective SAFETY
ground. Safety ground is different from earth ground even
though both share some components. Furthermore, that Ground
Fault Indicator cannot even report a good Safety ground. It
can only report when the Safety ground is defective AND says
absolutely nothing about Earth ground. But the Ground Fault
Indicator can have technicians confusing Safety ground with
Earth ground to promote the myths about hardware protection.

A plug-in UPS is only for data protection. Hardware
protection of the Asus motherboard is provided by things such
as a 'whole house' protector AND by a power supply that
actually meets Intel specs - requirements that were standard
even 30 years ago. Many power supplies today do not even
contain functions considered essential 30 years ago. That
would explain hardware damage and other power related
problems.

Leythos wrote:
You know, what it really comes down to is this: Like it or not, those
crude devices you say have no merit, actually save people from data loss
and hardware loss more times that I can count.

Not every cheap PSU comes with a warning about cycling AC power source
to many times or too frequently, in fact, I don't know of ANY PSU that
comes with that warning.

It's still a simple matter of experience in most cases a UPS
(residential device connected to a line with ground) is going to be of
more benefit that not having the device.

When I was at the local computer store today I looked at every unit, all
but one claimed joules protection level, most had ground fault
indicators and reverse polarity indicators (meaning a swapped hot/neut).

As a good example of how well a UPS works, we had a new client that had
no UPS's in their buildings - not one and 70+ computers. On the average
they required service related to power problems at least once a week (8
buildings across the USA). After installing the UPS's at each device,
there were no more power related service calls, not more lost data, and
no more devices that were "broken" by storms. Even when other hardware
in the buildings, not protected by a UPS was damaged, the computers
protected by them were fine.

So, you can list all the technical spec's, the NEC, and anything else
you want, but the simple fact is that a UPS, even a cheap one, will pay
for itself after the first power outage or other event where the systems
survive.