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  #11  
Old January 14th 05, 12:24 AM
notritenoteri
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem it is
the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about building
grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings are well enough
grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In building design it is possible
to reach a very high level of lightening and surge protection. the issue is
one of cost mostly. PC are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as
telecom guy in a building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening
or surges are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening
protection engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the stuff
blows.
As I said its the data thats important.
BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery inverter pack
to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip". That gets you one that
plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and outputs to 2 sockets for a total of
800 watts AC on the other side.
That's it said my piece


"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article , "notritenoteri"
wrote:

MOst surge protectors aren't much good they just don't operate fast

enough.
If U insist on protection a good UPS which convers AC to DC charges a
battery pack then provides AC out the other side with an inverter is the
best bet for my money. You can buy these in Canada where I am for about
$200. They have to be maintained and the batteries do go after about 5
years. As to RAID 1 I think you really need 4 drives, controller that

is
smart and the software but maybe your definition is different than mine.


At the risk of starting one of those whiny surge protector threads,
the devices used can actually react fast enough. Some of them conduct
in nanoseconds. The problem is with the physics - it is hard to get
the dumped energy into the ground fast enough. Ground wiring is
a secondary consideration in building construction, and even adding
an extra extension cord to a surge protector can render it useless,
due to the inductance of the cord preventing the dumped energy from
getting to ground in time. (The Tripplite ISObar outlet has an
insurance policy, that in invalidated if another extension cord is
used with the product.)

As for the UPS, the UPS acronym is used rather carelessly by the
marketing people. Your typical cheap home UPS is actually an SPS.
An SPS has no filtering capability to speak of, and uses a relay
to switch operating modes. It looks like this:

SPS - Normal operation SPS - Battery operation

AC ---X---X----AC AC ---X X----AC
/
DC DC

You can tell an SPS, because it remains stone cold to the touch
while operating. After all, in normal operation, AC is just being
passed through the device, via a relay.

A real UPS looks like this, and the path stays the same
all the time:

AC -----DC------AC

Such a UPS gets warm/hot, because the inverter on the output
making the AC, dissipates energy just like the switcher inside
your ATX power supply. A real UPS typical costs $1K (for no
good reason that I can see).

Paul


"Mercury" wrote in message
...
Everything man makes turns to dust right?

I don't believe in tempting fate. There are plenty of low quality UPS

and
surge protectors out there. I will generalise and say most low cost

consumer
stuff is complete rubbish until I am proven otherwise.You can have a

*good*
surge protector for as little as $US30. Many surge protectors are only

good
for 1 surge!A good true online UPS for an average power computer can

cost
$US250 or less.

RAID 1 costs 1 extra disc drive and a controller capable. It will

protect
you from drive failures.

There is no replacement for quality proven backups kept off-site. This

is
most important.

My sisters house got blown by lightning - oven, fax, x computers, TV's

etc.
The only thing that worked afterwards was the traction engine.

Prevention is better than cure.



"notritenoteri" wrote in message
...
YOu want to worry about something? Worry about your data. Your MB is
obsolete, Your OS is obselescent and going obsolete and the only

thing
that's of any value is your data. All the stuff about UPS's is

theory.
Are
you running NASA and a lunar lander mission? If you are you should

be
shot
for having only a single system. Given enough time EVERY piece of
equipment
will fail including $1000 UPS's.
I power my system on and off all the time. I don't shut down when
lightening
storms are overhead and I never worry about the telephone lines or

cable.
But I live where the power wiring is fairly new ~15 years and its

above
ground. If lightening is going to get you its going to get you. I

have
heard claims that buried power and phone cables are susceptable to
problems
but I've never seen proof.

"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51, "Travis King"
wrote:

What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I

take
good
care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer

for
the
most part constantly except when I leave town or do something

with
the
inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.

If the case temp is not excessive, the electrolytic caps should
be good for 10 years. Solder joints under stress, could be
anyone's guess (more likely to happen with a P4 retail heatsink
and its high clamping forces).

In ten years, you can expect several PSU failures, and any one of
those PSU failures could damage the motherboard.

If you have a lot of lightning storms, or bad quality power,
that could influence how long the mobo lasts. Look carefully
at any modem, cable modem, ADSL wires etc, to see if there are
any protection devices to take a (nearby) lightning hit, before
it gets to the motherboard. For example, on a phone line, there
may be a carbon block at the entry point, and you could enhance
that by using a second protection device nearer the computer.
For the really paranoid, a wireless network would reduce the
wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real ($1K purchase
price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.

On the motherboard itself, the Vcore circuit is the circuit under
the most stress. If the MOSFETs are cool to the touch, that is
a good sign. I've never read any MTBF estimates for switching
regulators on motherboards, so don't know whether they are
good for a 1 million hour MTBF or not.

Large BGA packages also have a rating, for solder joint
reliability. For example, a BGA with 750 pins, will last for
about 10 years, with a certain daily temperature variation.
From the Via web page:

* 552-pin BGA VT8366A North Bridge
* 376-pin BGA VT8233 South Bridge

so you have little risk of a failure there (caps will fail
first).

Handling the processor a lot (removal, regrease, reposition
heatsink) will cut into the life expectancy, if say the
processor gets cracked, and it happens to overload the Vcore
circuit. If the processor has the rubber bumpers on the top
of the chip, that will cut that risk a bit.

I would say your biggest exposure, is to external factors.

Paul






  #12  
Old January 14th 05, 08:38 AM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:
THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
stuff blows.
As I said its the data thats important.
BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
That's it said my piece

  #13  
Old January 14th 05, 01:05 PM
Peter R. Fletcher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:50:06 -0500, (Paul) wrote:

......
wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real ($1K purchase
price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.


I think that you are being unduly negative about cheap "UPSes". You
are absolutely correct that they are not true UPSes, since:
a) they normally connect the mains power (effectively) straight
through to the controlled devices, thus offering no _intrinsic_
protection from spikes; and
b) they have to switch to inverter mode when the power fails, which
takes finite time.
However:
a) almost all SPSes include at least as much separate surge protection
on the mains supply line as a decent standalone surge protector would
provide; and
b) All except the cheapest, no-name, ones switch fast enough so that a
normal computer system power supply does not "notice" the transient
power loss (though network switches, hubs, and the like may "glitch").
For most home and SOHO users, an SPS will provide cost-effective
protection against most of the data loss problems which might
otherwise be caused by brownouts and/or power outages, while their
built in (but unrelated) surge protection circuitry is a _lot_ better
than nothing as insurance against damage from power line spikes.

Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher
  #14  
Old January 14th 05, 05:12 PM
Milleron
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

w_tom,
I read your referenced thread with great interest. The principles were
clearly explained but some of the stuff about different types of
surges was over my head (I'm a physician whose use and knowledge of
electricity is pretty much limited to dc defibrillators).
At my newly constructed home, I employed an electrician whose business
is limited to surge protection to provide and install the whole-house
suppressor. He put in an Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSP Ultra that comes
with a $100,000 warranty. He says he's never in his career seen a
claim against Cutler Hammer for damage occurring in spite of this
unit. I have faith in this electrician and his recommendations, but
the whole-house suppressor was MUCH smaller than what I expected from
my minuscule knowledge of electricity.
Here's my question: This unit is mounted on the side of the
circuit-breaker box, so where is it's connection to ground? It is
very clearly within ten feet of the external earthing rod, but does it
connect to this through the inside of the breaker box? Can you give
me a brief explanation, of how this thing is wired to protect all the
circuits in the house? Also, in one of your posts, you mentioned that
phones and cable do not require separate protection because they have
built-in surge suppression, and, yet, my guy installed a companion
module (on the whole-house suppressor) for cable (not phone)
connections. Is that superfluous?

Thanks for all the time you take to provide us with these
explanations. They're great.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:38:02 -0500, w_tom wrote:

We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:
THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
stuff blows.
As I said its the data thats important.
BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
That's it said my piece


Ron
  #15  
Old January 14th 05, 06:24 PM
notritenoteri
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it does point
to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
against rare events is probably not worth it. On the other hand spending
money on the best possible lightening protection for a radio antenna tower
may be worthwhile.
Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat misleading. The
facts are "it depends"
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:
THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
stuff blows.
As I said its the data thats important.
BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
That's it said my piece



  #16  
Old January 14th 05, 07:44 PM
Rob Stow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

notritenoteri wrote:
You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it does point
to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
against rare events is probably not worth it. On the other hand spending
money on the best possible lightening protection for a radio antenna tower
may be worthwhile.
Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat misleading. The
facts are "it depends"


And "easily installed" doesn't matter much to people like me.

I live in a rental apartment and I have to deal as best I can
with the existing wiring. Screwing around with the wiring is not
an option for me. I - and many others like me - have to do the
best I can with surge suppressors and UPSes.

"w_tom" wrote in message
...

We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:

THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
stuff blows.
As I said its the data thats important.
BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
That's it said my piece




  #17  
Old January 14th 05, 08:23 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What you describe as describe as "all SPSes include at least
as much separate surge protection on the mains supply line as
a decent standalone surge protector would provide;" is really
near zero protection for numerous reasons. Both the plug-in
UPS and power strip protector have the same protector
circuit. And both are typically so grossly undersized to be
ineffective. Always start with the numbers. In this case
joules.

In another post and in those previously cited posts are
examples of how joules define protection. Notice that so many
plug-in protectors AND their plug-in UPS counterparts may be
rated at 345 joules. As joules increase, the life expectancy
of that protector increases exponentially. IOW if the plug-in
protector is good for two same size surges, then the 1000
joule 'whole house' protector is good for something on the
order of 300 of those same size surges.

Then it continues farther. The plug-in protector has no
earth ground. Therefore the manufacturer avoids the entire
topic altogether. This is how one identified ineffective (and
grossly overpriced - yes grossly overpriced) plug-in
protectors. 1) No dedicated wire connection to earth ground
AND 2) manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing.

Further details will be provided in response to Milleron.
But the plug-in protectors are on the order of 10 and 50 times
more expensive per protected appliance. So yes, what you are
calling cheap protectors are really overpriced and expensive
protectors that also are not effective.

BTW, UPSes switch in milliseconds. (One must be careful to
buy power supplies with numerical specs that read: Hold up
time, full load: 16ms. typical). Surges do their damage and
are done in microseconds. 300 consecutive surges could pass
through a UPS before the UPS even considered switching to
battery power. Plug-in UPSes have one function - data
protection. They do not provide the hardware protection so
often implied.

You want a UPS that also provides hardware protection? That
is typically the building wide UPS that also makes this all so
important 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground.
Plug-in UPSes are for data protection; not for hardware
protection.

"Peter R. Fletcher" wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:50:06 -0500, (Paul) wrote:
......
wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real ($1K purchase
price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.


I think that you are being unduly negative about cheap "UPSes". You
are absolutely correct that they are not true UPSes, since:
a) they normally connect the mains power (effectively) straight
through to the controlled devices, thus offering no _intrinsic_
protection from spikes; and
b) they have to switch to inverter mode when the power fails, which
takes finite time.
However:
a) almost all SPSes include at least as much separate surge protection
on the mains supply line as a decent standalone surge protector would
provide; and
b) All except the cheapest, no-name, ones switch fast enough so that a
normal computer system power supply does not "notice" the transient
power loss (though network switches, hubs, and the like may "glitch").
For most home and SOHO users, an SPS will provide cost-effective
protection against most of the data loss problems which might
otherwise be caused by brownouts and/or power outages, while their
built in (but unrelated) surge protection circuitry is a _lot_ better
than nothing as insurance against damage from power line spikes.

Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher

  #18  
Old January 14th 05, 08:28 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Plug in protectors claim to protect from one type of surge.
Do some punching. As one arm swings out, the other
withdrawals. That 1-2 punching is an example of a surge that
typically does not do damage. Now instead punch with both
left and right arms simultaneously. That is the common mode
surge that typically damages electronics.

Lightning seeks earth ground. It comes down any and all
'arms', passes through punching bag, and exits out other side
of punching bag. The plug-in protector does not stop, block,
or absorb such destructive surges. IOW it does not sit
between surge and the electronics - even though they hope you
will assume that. And effective protector connects earlier
where wires enter the building so that the 'surge down all
wires simultaneously' all find the same earth ground.

Lightning in 1752 found earth ground destructively via a
church steeple. Franklin simply gave lightning a better path
to earth. Lightning is the 'all arms moving forward at the
same time" type of surge. You don't stop, block, or filter
what miles of sky could not even stop. You 'shunt' lightning
to earth ground. That is also what the 'whole house'
protector does. It provides lightning with a short path to
earth ground.

You are surprised how small the Cutler Hammer unit is. It
need not be large because it does not stop, block, or absorb
the energy. Wire is also not massive because it too carry
massive electrical energy and does not try to stop or block
it. A surge protector is nothing more than a wire. A wire
that conducts only during the rare and short transient. It
can be small because the transient is only in microseconds.

In a parallel example, try to push a common nail into wood.
You cannot. It takes the force of a backhoe to drive that
nail. However, we hit that nail with only a 20 oz hammer.
Does the human arm have same energy as the backhoe? Of course
not. People often confuse energy with power. The hammer has
low energy but high power. Lightning has low energy but high
power. The protector need not be monstrous because 1) it does
not stop or absorb the energy, and 2) the energy is not as
massive as urban myths portray. Too many only 'feel' that a
lightning strike is high energy.

The electrical circuit is best demonstrated by an NIST
figure used in an example from:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
They demonstrate why a fax machine was damaged. Notice that
the phone line was not 'earthed' less than 10 feet to the same
single point ground as AC electric. Telephone line protector
is inside the box labeled NID.

The 'whole house' protector is located where 'Arrestor' is
labeled. Notice that the destructive surge goes through
Arrestor, then to earth ground. Since it need not pass
through fax machine to get earth ground, then an AC electric
surge does not damage fax machine.

All electronic appliances contain effective protection.
Anything that is going to work on the end of a power cord
(those grossly overpriced plug-in protectors) is already
inside electronics - as even required by industry standards.
But we worry that internal electronics protection might be
overwhelmed. So we install a 'whole house' protector on every
incoming utility wire - to same earth ground.

Demonstrated in various posts is the AC electric 'whole
house' protector (such as the Cutler Hammer), the telco
provided protector, and a ground block for cable wire (no
protector required). All are only as effective as that earth
ground.

Now about earthing. Engineered discussed this in two
discussions in the newsgroup misc.rural entitled:
Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv and http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Depending on the problem with transients, the earth ground
may need be enhanced. Important is the neighborhood history.
Also important is the geology. Does the ground tend to
attract more CG lightning? For example, mid-west storms may
be spectacular, but most of the lightning remains sky to sky.
WV is a region with high numbers of CG (cloud to ground)
strikes per thunderstorm.

Those discussions also mention equipotential which is why
Ufer grounds and halo grounds make the protector even more
effective.

Also is earth conductive or is it sand. I believe that
previous discussion also tells a story of a house struck
multiple times - and lightning rods did not work. Why?
Lightning rods were earthed poorly in non-conductive sand.
Bottom line - a surge protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. In most locations, a single ground rod may
provide massive increase in protection. A house that does not
at least meet post 1990 National Electrical Code earthing
requirements does not have the necessary earth ground.

Also in that misc.rural discussion would be how wire must be
routed. For example, no sharp bends and no splices. A ground
wire bundled with other wires may only induce more surges on
that other wire (which is but another reason why plug-in
protectors have no effective earth ground).

There is much to read. Come back with questions. The
simple earthing of surges is surprisingly not intuitively
obvious. In discussing this, I was amazed how many don't even
know what a Ben Franklin air terminal (lightning rod) does -
AND yet would recommend surge protectors. Many even argue
pointed verse blunt lighting rods - when earth ground defines
the effectiveness of that rod. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.

Milleron wrote:
tom,
I read your referenced thread with great interest. The principles were
clearly explained but some of the stuff about different types of
surges was over my head (I'm a physician whose use and knowledge of
electricity is pretty much limited to dc defibrillators).
At my newly constructed home, I employed an electrician whose business
is limited to surge protection to provide and install the whole-house
suppressor. He put in an Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSP Ultra that comes
with a $100,000 warranty. He says he's never in his career seen a
claim against Cutler Hammer for damage occurring in spite of this
unit. I have faith in this electrician and his recommendations, but
the whole-house suppressor was MUCH smaller than what I expected from
my minuscule knowledge of electricity.
Here's my question: This unit is mounted on the side of the
circuit-breaker box, so where is it's connection to ground? It is
very clearly within ten feet of the external earthing rod, but does it
connect to this through the inside of the breaker box? Can you give
me a brief explanation, of how this thing is wired to protect all the
circuits in the house? Also, in one of your posts, you mentioned that
phones and cable do not require separate protection because they have
built-in surge suppression, and, yet, my guy installed a companion
module (on the whole-house suppressor) for cable (not phone)
connections. Is that superfluous?

Thanks for all the time you take to provide us with these
explanations. They're great.

  #19  
Old January 14th 05, 08:39 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Effective protection costs so little. For example, go to
Home Depot or Radio Shack from something called a grounding
block for incoming cable TV line. It costs less than $2
retail. Connect this grounding block less than 10 feet using
12 AWG or heavier wire. Now the CATV line is fully surge
protected. Yes, the cable line requires no surge protector.
A surge protector is nothing more than a temporary connection
to earth ground. BUT the ground block has already made that
protection connection using a 12 AWG wire. Where is the big
cost?

Unfortunately we still don't build new homes for transistor
safety. So effective protection often must be installed as an
after thought. Sometimes, this means the incoming cable -
improperly installed - must be moved. Now we are talking big
bucks; and only because humans were the reasons for failure.
I recently had this discussion with some cable installer who
keep saying, "Is that what they were saying", or "That's
right. They said something about that". Every incoming
wire must connect to single point earth ground. That
connection is either via a protector or hard wire. The
telephone company even installs a 'whole house' protector ....
for free. But again, it is only as effective as the earth
ground provided by the home builder.

I don't see where all this expense is. Many waste big bucks
on plug in protectors that (quietly) don't even claim to
provide effective protection. The missing information is that
damning. IOW those expensive protectors also are ineffective
solutions. The less expensive 'whole house' protector
connected 'less than 10 feet' to protection is the less
expensive and more effective solution.

Which wire is most often struck? Wire highest on telephone
pole. AC electric. This is a direct strike to the computer
inside the house IF effective 'whole house' protectors do not
connect to that all so essential single point earth ground.

"It depends" is a discussion about the human who did or did
not install effective protection - and what it takes to
correct that mistake. There is no reason for any electronics
to be damaged by surges. And some locations make protection
far more essential. The need for earthed protection varies
even with geology AND can vary significantly even within the
same town.

notritenoteri wrote:
You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it
does point to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary
precautions to protect against rare events is probably not worth it.
On the other hand spending money on the best possible lightening
protection for a radio antenna tower may be worthwhile.
Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat
misleading. The facts are "it depends"

  #20  
Old January 14th 05, 11:00 PM
notritenoteri
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Equipment can be replaced data mostly can't . Any problem that can be fixed
by the application of money is not a problem, at most an inconvenience. Data
is not one of those. Lost data is a problem.
"Rob Stow" wrote in message
news:AqUFd.78839$6l.50962@pd7tw2no...
notritenoteri wrote:
You're right 5 years with no damage doesn't prove anything but it does

point
to the fact that the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
against rare events is probably not worth it. On the other hand

spending
money on the best possible lightening protection for a radio antenna

tower
may be worthwhile.
Your claim that protection is easily installed is somewhat misleading.

The
facts are "it depends"


And "easily installed" doesn't matter much to people like me.

I live in a rental apartment and I have to deal as best I can
with the existing wiring. Screwing around with the wiring is not
an option for me. I - and many others like me - have to do the
best I can with surge suppressors and UPSes.

"w_tom" wrote in message
...

We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:

THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
stuff blows.
As I said its the data thats important.
BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
That's it said my piece






 




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