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#21
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
Robert Baer wrote:
Bernhard Kuemel wrote: Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist. Hi! I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware (exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period. What methods do you think are suitable? Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue, if necessary. I thought about this: ROMs/PROMs, replacing them when checksum fails. * add - 3 in "parallel" using majority logic for output a and checking. But it's still semiconductor storage, susceptible to cosmic ray damage and stuff. So should be shielded from that. ROM/PROM masters, being copied once a year to flash ROM. * see above. 1000 flash ROMs, refreshing once a year from the ones that still have a valid checksum. * see above. ** Semiconductor storage is useless in a RAD environment. Not if shielded. It must be the fuse type arrays, the non-reprogrammable ones. Non electronic masters: Microfilm/microfiche * Degrades - maybe not as fast as the old acetate movie films, but 100 year life is not realistic (but may be better in a RAD environment). HD-Rosetta (ion beam engraved nickel disc) * of ideas mentioned,this seems the best. now,how does it get read? By going on the Microsoft help pages. Not sure where the MSFT stock price will be 1000 years from now though :-) glass CD/DVD * maybe good enough for 20-10 years. Paper [2] * NOPE! Leather,if kept in a dry environment is at least an order of magnitude better (eg: Dead Sea scrolls). Proven technology. Proven characteristics. Good enough for a few thousand years. Nope. The dead sea scrolls, like many other ancient documents, were written on parchment paper and on papyrus. And they were just tucked into a cave without much other protection. Nowadays one could even engrave in porcelain with a laser. That's last way longer than 1000 years if nobody runs the bulldozer over it. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#22
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
In sci.electronics.design Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 03 May 2013 18:28:17 -0700, John Larkin wrote: People tell me that Spanish, like Cervantes, has changed very little compared to English. I asked a co-worker who was fluent in Chinese about this once. If I remember right, he said that he could read written Chinese as old as a couple of thousand years and it would pretty much make sense. He also said that he could understand written Japanese, but if he tried to speak it, someone fluent in spoken Japanese wouldn't understand him; the pronunciation would be wrong. Also Latin, which was the reason that the legal profession adopted it as their favored language. Since it's a dead language, it's unlikely to change. I figured it was a customer lock-in tactic, like EBCDIC and Word .doc . 1000 years from now, it will look as strange as Olde English. Pic related: http://xkcd.com/771/ (sfw) Matt Roberds |
#23
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On May 3, 2:00*am, Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist. |
#24
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
In article ,
Joerg wrote: * NOPE! Leather,if kept in a dry environment is at least an order of magnitude better (eg: Dead Sea scrolls). Proven technology. Proven characteristics. Good enough for a few thousand years. Nope. The dead sea scrolls, like many other ancient documents, were written on parchment paper and on papyrus. And they were just tucked into a cave without much other protection. Ummm... parchment *is* leather. Well, hide, at least. It's an animal product, not paper. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#25
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
Dave Platt wrote:
In article , Joerg wrote: * NOPE! Leather,if kept in a dry environment is at least an order of magnitude better (eg: Dead Sea scrolls). Proven technology. Proven characteristics. Good enough for a few thousand years. Nope. The dead sea scrolls, like many other ancient documents, were written on parchment paper and on papyrus. And they were just tucked into a cave without much other protection. Ummm... parchment *is* leather. Well, hide, at least. It's an animal product, not paper. True, it is an animal product. But some of the dead sea scrolls were written on papyrus and that is not animal-based. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#26
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
In article , Bernhard Kuemel
wrote: Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist. Hi! I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware (exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period. What methods do you think are suitable? Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue, if necessary. I thought about this: ROMs/PROMs, replacing them when checksum fails. ROM/PROM masters, being copied once a year to flash ROM. 1000 flash ROMs, refreshing once a year from the ones that still have a valid checksum. Non electronic masters: Microfilm/microfiche HD-Rosetta (ion beam engraved nickel disc) glass CD/DVD Paper [2] punched cards The drawback of the non electronic masters is their reader system which can fail mechanically/optically (dust, gears, ...) and requires electronic components/firmware themselves. Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic) capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras, actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably difficult. Thanks, Bernhard [1] http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta [2] something like http://ronja.twibright.com/optar/ [3] A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind uploading ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_u...ial_sectioning ) becomes possible. No semiconductor will continue to work for 1,000 years - the carefully crafted variations in impurity concentrations (the doping) will diffuse out to uniformity long before. The smaller the features, the faster this will happen. The lower the temperature, the slower the diffusion, but this isn't much help over 1000 years, even at arctic temperatures. As for long-term storage of information, two thoughts come to mind. First, for the millennium celebrations, The New York Times decided to make and widely disperse a umber to time capsules; these being intended to be opened 1,000 years hence. Basically nothing worked except nickel sheets with natural-language texts engraved into the surface using an electron beam. The text was rendered in English and a number of other languages, so it would also serve as a Rosetta Stone. Anyway, the whole process was described in a set of articles in the NYT Magazine published in 1999. More recently, the ability to convert arbitrary text into DNA, and to read the text back gives us a way to store huge amounts of binary information for millennia. One can also store bulk binary on nickel sheet by writing code blocks in hexadecimal, with embedded error correcting codes. Joe Gwinn Some links: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/02/ar...-for-times-cap sule.html http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/05/ma...time-capsule.h tml?pagewanted=all&src=pm http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...82598835075431 50.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ature11875.htm l |
#27
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
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#28
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
On 2013-05-04, Joe Gwinn wrote:
One can also store bulk binary on nickel sheet by writing code blocks in hexadecimal, with embedded error correcting codes. or more compact symbologies like QR or matrix codes. -- ⚂⚃ 100% natural --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
#30
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1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility
wrote:
In sci.electronics.design Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 03 May 2013 18:28:17 -0700, John Larkin wrote: People tell me that Spanish, like Cervantes, has changed very little compared to English. I asked a co-worker who was fluent in Chinese about this once. If I remember right, he said that he could read written Chinese as old as a couple of thousand years and it would pretty much make sense. He also said that he could understand written Japanese, but if he tried to speak it, someone fluent in spoken Japanese wouldn't understand him; the pronunciation would be wrong. I was totally surprised this week when I worked with several Chinese scientists at our university. I asked why they don't speak Mandarin or Cantonese when among themselves. "He is from Shanghai and we are from the north so we can't understand each other at all". [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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