Economics of SATA hard drive

Makes more sense to do it the other way, buy a SATA drive
and a SATA PCI card, because that will be used only in the
dinosaur that wont be that fast anyway. No point in crippling
the speed of the hard drives in a new fast system by having
them on a PCI card.

It would still be faster than the drives.


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"Merrill P. L. Worthington" wrote in message
...


Rod Speed wrote:


Makes more sense to do it the other way, buy a SATA drive
and a SATA PCI card, because that will be used only in the
dinosaur that wont be that fast anyway. No point in crippling
the speed of the hard drives in a new fast system by having
them on a PCI card.

What kind of advantage do you think SATA has over IDE? Does it have any
other than the size of the cable?

Do you think SATA drives are faster than PATA? Do you think SATA drives
use the entire bandwidth available on a SATA connection for data transfer?
Do you think PATA drives use the entire nbandwidth available on a PATA
connection. Do you think there's a speed advantage of SATA drives over
PATA drives?

What is the max read/write rate of any hard drive? Does it exceed the
speed of PATA? SATA? Is it close?


Exactly. A Raptor still doesn't use up pre-3.0 SATA.


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"Warra" wrote in message
...
On 22 Jun 2006, Ed wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote

Yes, but one PATA channel may well not be enough,
most obviously if you want to have two optical drives,
you're stuffed, no where to put the PATA hard drives.

To the rescue!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822998008

Cool.

But after all this discussion, you have forgotten the first 4 words of
my OP:

"Am in the UK".

:-)

I assumed you could find something similar. Maybe I should have found a link
to the manufacturer.


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"kony" wrote

I still look for boards with
maximum # of PCI slots, particularly towards the bottom of
the board so they aren't conflicting with good video card
cooling if utilized.

Me too. Look as this little goodie! Not too many like that for socket AM2.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128010


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"kony" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 23:34:02 -0700, "Ed Light"
wrote:


The OP presently has a pata m/b and doesn't really want a pci sata card.
One
alternative suggested was to get a pata drive and later it would still
work
on a newer motherboard, then that newer motherboards have only one pata
channel, then that having a hd and dvd on the same channel should drop the
udma speed to the dvd's. Now my post is relevant.

... except that it won't... drop the UDMA speed to either
the HDD or DVD. They can each run at their own speed.

Kony, I was going through the suggested suggestions. My post itself was
relevant -- it was suggested that putting a DVD on a channel with a HD would
slow down the HD. I showed that on my system it didn't.

That one was misunderstood alot.


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kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote

we can see this with any kinds of add-on cards that
the 3rd party cards are trailing behind the motherboard
adoption of PCI Express supportive chipsets. So far
only video cards have made a significant transition, enough
to expect a good choice of technology from most manufacturers.

Bet there wont be to support PATA drives
that are now well past their useby date.

Do you mind if I quote this at a later date?

Yep, just as long as you keep that GOOD
CHOICE OF TECHNOLOGY, claim.

I'm pretty sure there will be PATA
cards available at reasonable cost.

Separate matter entirely to your GOOD CHOICE OF TECHNOLOGY claim.

And thats a ****ed config anyway, having the boot drive
on one of those in a new system, needlessly complicated.

MUCH more viable to buy a SATA drive now and use
it as the boot drive in the new system when he gets it.

There may be a few, but there wont be a good choice with those.

Cabling alone is a major downside
with a card that supports hard drives.

That is ridiculous.

Nope.

Cabling is a non-issue.

Wrong.

SATA cables are a little better in an esthetic sense but we can
see there is no problem at all using PATA cables and cards.

There is with a PCI Express RAID card for
PATA drives on the card design alone, let
alone the LENGTH of standard cable allowed.

I have 2 systems with two PCI PATA cards in them
currently. Cables are quite manageable if one merely
chooses the right length of cable, rounded if desirable.

No thanks, I'm not stupid enough to flout the ATA standard.

You dont need to with SATA.

So we see with most add-on card functionality,

Yes, but there isnt that much in the way
of addon card functionality needed now.

... but that's exactly the case with a PATA hard drive!

Wrong.

The OP doesn't NEED addon card at all!

Yes he does, to get no constraints on what
he can choose to buy with the new system.

Rather you argue that he should get one anyway...

Yes, so he isnt crippled in his choices
at all when he buys the new system.

He can buy whatever is good value at that time and doesnt have
to give a damn about PATA drive support or free card slots etc.

so apparently the argument of built-in feature sets is
never really enough for some people, there is always
the chance a feature addition will be desirable and
after all it IS why there are slots on boards.

Yes, BUT FAR FEWER THAN THERE USED TO BE.

there is no reason to expect otherwise with PATA cards,

Every reason in face, its a technology thats passing its useby date
which isnt that easy to handle on a small addon card cable wise.

I have no explaination as to why you keep mentioning cables.

Yep, you havent got a clue about those basics.

Cables are trivial, very easy to install and use on PATA.
It is not an issue.

Wrong with the DESIGN OF A PCI Express
RAID CARD THAT SUPPORTS PATA DRIVES.

No technology is past it's useby date when:

A) The system supports it.

Wrong again when the support is slipping away and quite
a few new motherboards only support two PATA drives
and at least one of them will be used by the DVD burner.

B) Brand new current generation products are being sold

What matters is being able to use almost anything on offer.

That gives you much more choice on what to buy.

C) Next gen systems are expected to
support it, at least 1 channel/2 devices.

Fat lof of good that will be if you need more than that.

D) Addon cards ARE expected to be in the market,

We'll see with PCI Express RAID cards that support PATA drives.

It wouldnt surprise me if no one bothers.

as there are still the present PCI cards even if one didn't want
(or have a free slot for) the anticipated PCI Express versions.

Irrelevant WITH THE NEW SYSTEM.

SATA is slightly superior,

Its greatly superior WITH NEW SYSTEMS WHICH HAVE LOTS
OF SATA PORTS AND BUGGER ALL PATA PORTS, AT LEAST
ONE OF WHICH WILL BE NEEDED FOR THE DVD BURNER.

but that slight edge

It isnt a slight edge, its a major advantage WITH NEW
SYSTEMS WHICH HAVE LOTS OF SATA PORTS AND
BUGGER ALL PATA PORTS, AT LEAST ONE OF
WHICH WILL BE NEEDED FOR THE DVD BURNER.

is easily outweighed by the details or costs of implementation.

Fantasy.

It is among the last things to consider unless
one simply must have a particular drive that
only comes in SATA format like a WD Raptor,

Wrong, as always.

but then if low latency is really that important
there is also SCSI if the buyer is considering a
PCI card to support whichever drive technology.

Nope, lousy value in personal desktop systems now.

especially since there are still quite a few new
PATA products being sold but modern motherboards
are cutting back to only one PATA channel.

I doubt too many will want to move too much from their dinosaurs
to their new system. Most just discard the system and start over
with a new one and move at most the monitors etc.

"Most" just buy a whole OEM system,

Yes, but he's clearly not one of those when he
clearly plans to move that drive to the new system.

but if you are claiming they won't move stuff to their new system

No I'm not. I was just rubbing your nose in the poor market
there will be for PCI Express RAID cards for PATA drives.

then it innvalidates your entire argument about buying the SATA hard drive...

Like hell it does when he clearly wants to move that drive to the new system.

it is completely pointless if it wouldn't be moved to the new system.

Yes, but he clearly wants to move that drive to the new system.

What I was commenting on there is how much of a market the
small number of people like him will be, and that that will have
a real effect on the prospects for a decent PCI Express RAID
card that supports PATA drives. It wouldnt surprise me if there
turns out to **** all choice of those and there may not even
be one available at the time that he buys a new system.

In other words, **** all of a market for that particular product.

If you Google,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ATA+benchmarks

look at the very first hit, it happens to be KT266A...
http://www.tecchannel.de/ueberblick/...70/index3.html

... and this is even BEFORE one tries to use the PCI bus for
other concurrent things like audio or whatever.

75MB/s is still sufficient for single drive use.
For more drives too when not reading sequentially.

Sufficent can depend on your definition,

Nope, on how you plan to use it.

Which is a definition,

Nope.

so your "nope" is doubly wrong.

Nope.

as it is still a reduction and this already seen without any other
contention for bus throughput. Now more than ever people are
building HTPC or other special needs that can have an impact.

HTPCs arent particularly demanding on the hard drive anyway.

Quite wrong.

Quite right.

Capture some uncompressed video
while playing back another video.

Only a fool does that with an HTPC. Anyone with a clue has
digital capture cards that dont bother with uncompressed video.

I have 4 in a rather elderly 900MHz PC and I can
capture 4 channels simultaneously and play back
anything I like without that missing a beat.

HTPCs are often optimized for small size which means
they have less space for HDDs, fewer of them.

Irrelevant, they still arent demanding of the drive when done properly.

Such systems have have only one drive

Yes, as does mine.

and uncompressed video

Only a fool bothers with uncompresssed video in an HTPC.

is too bandwidth intensive to be captured to a remote
destination on a lan so a local drive has to do it.

See above.

Granted one might prefer to use lossless compression

Or get real radical and use decent modern digital TV capture cards.
That way the compression is done back in the TV station etc.

which eases the HDD performance requirement,
but either way we have a signficant data rate

No you dont, mine handles 4 of those cards fine, on a system
which has always had a less than dazzling hard drive performance,
and can play back stuff over the lan or from the hard drive fine too.

and we haven't even considered the PCI utilization of this system yet.

Its just not a problem with decent modern digital TV capture cards.

Recall that at that time even using an sound card from the most
popular manufacturer caused a problem, when a PCI IDE card
was used. We haven't even considered any other devices yet.

Irrelevant to whether a SATA drive on a
PCI card will work fine in that dinosaur.

If it's such a dinosaur, the last thing that makes sense
is to spend extra money on another PCI card for it.

Wrong when that costs peanuts when you buy it from the right
source. It makes a lot of sense to get a SATA drive so that you
arent limited at all in the choice of the new system with that drive
used as the boot drive in the new system.

Merrill P. L. Worthington wrote
Rod Speed wrote
kony wrote
Merrill P. L. Worthington wrote

Ya think? Prove it.

no need to prove what is common knowledge.

There is no problem doing it, IDT (independant
device timing) means the HDD will run at full
speed unless the optical was a PIO drive.

And its trivial to prove anyway, just use a decent benchmark
like HDTach with and without the DVD drive on the cable.

And if you have enough of a clue to be using a DVD burner
because they are so cheap now that its not worth bothering
with DVD readers anymore, plenty of those are ATA100 anyway.

So with your continual personal contradictions, do you think anybody is actually doing
much more than laughing at your posts?

Its you thats getting ****ed on from a great height by everyone, ******.

Ed Light wrote:

Hmm I'd like to filter out belligerents. Guess I'll start with Rod.

No one gives a fly red **** what you do or do not read.

You havent managed to contribute a damned thing either.

Ed Light wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Ed Light wrote:
"Horst Franke" nospam@invalid wrote in message
...
In news:K6omg.198$lv.167@fed1read12 Ed Light typed:
My PATA HD and DVD are on the same channel and the HD benches up
to its maximum of 40 Mb/S.
Device manager lists them at UDMA 133 and 33. Win XP Home. Whether
this can happen may depend on the bios.

Hi Ed, and what has this to do with the OP's inquery?
He asked about SATA!
Horst

You missed part of the thread. Though I had some news server
problems and maybe answered a bit off the appropriate sub-thread.
Not sure. I had to skip some messages that wouldn't load.

The OP presently has a pata m/b and doesn't really want a pci sata
card. One alternative suggested was to get a pata drive and later it
would still work on a newer motherboard, then that newer
motherboards have only one pata channel, then that having a hd and
dvd on the same channel should drop the udma speed to the dvd's.

No it doesnt.

Now my post is relevant.

No it isnt, its just plain wrong.

You're not following the thread. Well, OK.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Ed Light wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Ed Light wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Ed Light wrote:
My PATA HD and DVD are on the same channel and the HD benches up
to its maximum of 40 Mb/S.

Device manager lists them at UDMA 133 and 33. Win XP Home.

Whether this can happen may depend on the bios.

Nope, not anymore.

How far back? KT133? Pentium 1?

Back about then.

Someone could have an old board, so I was right.

Nope. You never ever are.

Ta da. Well bye, I've got you filtered.

Usual puerile stunt. Pity it wont save your bacon, ******.