Upgrade help please...

Current machine is a 300 Celeron with 256 RAM. Max CPU upgrade on the
mobo is to 466, hardly worth the bother. RAM is at max now.
Saw abare-bones 2.4 gig Celeron, USB 2, 512 DDR RAM, Intel Mobo, case,
assembled for $199 on Ebay. I can use my OS (ME), FD, HDs, burner, AGP
video card, modem NIC etc.
I don't game, do graphics etc. Just need more power for multi-tasking
and need USB 2.0 to upload to an MP3 player. I'm out of slots on this
machine and a combo card to free up a PCI slot would be another $70
into an obsolete box.
Is that a reasonably good deal for my requirements or should I look
for something else?
TIA
DFB

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:09:44 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:

Current machine is a 300 Celeron with 256 RAM. Max CPU upgrade on the
mobo is to 466, hardly worth the bother. RAM is at max now.
Saw abare-bones 2.4 gig Celeron, USB 2, 512 DDR RAM, Intel Mobo, case,
assembled for $199 on Ebay. I can use my OS (ME), FD, HDs, burner, AGP
video card, modem NIC etc.
I don't game, do graphics etc. Just need more power for multi-tasking
and need USB 2.0 to upload to an MP3 player. I'm out of slots on this
machine and a combo card to free up a PCI slot would be another $70
into an obsolete box.
Is that a reasonably good deal for my requirements or should I look
for something else?
TIA
DFB

Is your video card the newer AGP2 type, that uses 1.5V? It wouldn't
be if it's the same age as your motherboard & CPU. Most if not all
semi-modern Intel boards can't use the old AGP1, 3.3V cards. The easy
way to tell is looking at the video card, there will be a notch in the
contacts.. on an incompatible card the notch will be towards the back
of the system, but on compatible cards there will be a 2nd notch
towards the front of the system.

For your understated needs the above sounds more than adequate
performancewise, though you have to be careful about really good
prices on ebay, generally they use cheap memory, case, power supply..
in other words anything possible. A cheap power supply might fail and
damage the system, or at least shorten the lifespan of it. AT $200
each you might not be able to assume they took the greatest care
assembling it either, it might be thrown together so quickly that any
benefit to having it pre-assembled, is outweighed by having to
double-check everything.

You ought to price the componets in that barebones and see how close
you can come... if it's only ~ $30-50 more for a decent case you
wouldn't mind using long-term, and a quality power supply you can rely
on, it's money well-spent, especially if you hope to get anywhere near
the number of years out of this system as your current one.


Dave

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:01:10 GMT, kony wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:09:44 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:

Current machine is a 300 Celeron with 256 RAM. Max CPU upgrade on the
mobo is to 466, hardly worth the bother. RAM is at max now.
Saw abare-bones 2.4 gig Celeron, USB 2, 512 DDR RAM, Intel Mobo, case,
assembled for $199 on Ebay. I can use my OS (ME), FD, HDs, burner, AGP
video card, modem NIC etc.
I don't game, do graphics etc. Just need more power for multi-tasking
and need USB 2.0 to upload to an MP3 player. I'm out of slots on this
machine and a combo card to free up a PCI slot would be another $70
into an obsolete box.
Is that a reasonably good deal for my requirements or should I look
for something else?
TIA
DFB

Is your video card the newer AGP2 type, that uses 1.5V? It wouldn't
be if it's the same age as your motherboard & CPU. Most if not all
semi-modern Intel boards can't use the old AGP1, 3.3V cards. The easy
way to tell is looking at the video card, there will be a notch in the
contacts.. on an incompatible card the notch will be towards the back
of the system, but on compatible cards there will be a 2nd notch
towards the front of the system.

For your understated needs the above sounds more than adequate
performancewise, though you have to be careful about really good
prices on ebay, generally they use cheap memory, case, power supply..
in other words anything possible. A cheap power supply might fail and
damage the system, or at least shorten the lifespan of it. AT $200
each you might not be able to assume they took the greatest care
assembling it either, it might be thrown together so quickly that any
benefit to having it pre-assembled, is outweighed by having to
double-check everything.

You ought to price the componets in that barebones and see how close
you can come... if it's only ~ $30-50 more for a decent case you
wouldn't mind using long-term, and a quality power supply you can rely
on, it's money well-spent, especially if you hope to get anywhere near
the number of years out of this system as your current one.


Dave

Many thanks. I believe you saved me from a mistake. I have the 32 meg
Matrox G450, which replaced an S-3 Virge (?) which came with the
system in 1999 or 2000. Since it fit right in the AGP slot I guess it
is the 3.3v type. The mobo spec is 1.5v. There are two notches on the
card but only one actually in the contact area. I looked at some
pictures of 1.5v cards on Ebay and I see what you refer to. The 1.5v
cards have two notches right in the contact area actually dividing the
contacts into three sections. I really don't want to give up the
G450. The text resolution it produces in conjunction with the 955DF
monitor is really nice.
The mobo was referred to an an Intel but the only thing that came up
in a Google search as a F845DA Motherboard was something from Artex
called a Foxconn. Don't know whether that is bad or good. Irrelevant
now.
I guess I'll replace the NIC card with the NIC/USB 2.0 combo card and
limp along a while longer.
Again, many thanks.
DFB

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:11:25 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:


Many thanks. I believe you saved me from a mistake. I have the 32 meg
Matrox G450, which replaced an S-3 Virge (?) which came with the
system in 1999 or 2000. Since it fit right in the AGP slot I guess it
is the 3.3v type. The mobo spec is 1.5v. There are two notches on the
card but only one actually in the contact area. I looked at some
pictures of 1.5v cards on Ebay and I see what you refer to. The 1.5v
cards have two notches right in the contact area actually dividing the
contacts into three sections. I really don't want to give up the
G450. The text resolution it produces in conjunction with the 955DF
monitor is really nice.

The AGP2 cards will fit in both old and new AGP slots. When you
mentioned the G450 I had though it did support AGP2, and that's also
suggested on Matrox's FAQ:
http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/faqs/home.cfm ,
but then you write above that it has only the one "notch".

Here's a picture of a G450, is yours not similar in the cotact area?
http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage....106-143-03.jpg

The mobo was referred to an an Intel but the only thing that came up
in a Google search as a F845DA Motherboard was something from Artex
called a Foxconn. Don't know whether that is bad or good. Irrelevant
now.

I would say bad, I had assumed you meant an Intel brand board, not
just Intel chipset. Having the more expensive Intel chipset is
sometimes coinciding with overall higher cost/quality construction of
the board in general, but if it's difficult to even get specs on the
board it may be more trouble than the slight cost savings are worth.

I guess I'll replace the NIC card with the NIC/USB 2.0 combo card and
limp along a while longer.
Again, many thanks.
DFB

That $70 option you mentioned isn't the cheapest way to go, you could
instead buy an ISA 10Mb NIC, they're even being thrown away quite
often. It would slow down filesharing on a 100Mb lan but broadband is
a lot slower than 10Mb.

An other option for the NIC is an external with USB connection... just
removing the NIC, buying a ~$20 USB NIC and having the free PCI slot
for the USB2 card.

On the other hand, your system isn't just slow, it's age "might' make
it less reliable in the future. Now IS a good time to think about
replacing it.


Dave

Sounds like it. Think future expansions though, make sure there is anough
room for more cards etc if you want to add them.


"D F Bonnett" wrote in message
news
Current machine is a 300 Celeron with 256 RAM. Max CPU upgrade on the
mobo is to 466, hardly worth the bother. RAM is at max now.
Saw abare-bones 2.4 gig Celeron, USB 2, 512 DDR RAM, Intel Mobo, case,
assembled for $199 on Ebay. I can use my OS (ME), FD, HDs, burner, AGP
video card, modem NIC etc.
I don't game, do graphics etc. Just need more power for multi-tasking
and need USB 2.0 to upload to an MP3 player. I'm out of slots on this
machine and a combo card to free up a PCI slot would be another $70
into an obsolete box.
Is that a reasonably good deal for my requirements or should I look
for something else?
TIA
DFB

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:26:54 GMT, kony wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:11:25 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:


Many thanks. I believe you saved me from a mistake. I have the 32 meg
Matrox G450, which replaced an S-3 Virge (?) which came with the
system in 1999 or 2000. Since it fit right in the AGP slot I guess it
is the 3.3v type. The mobo spec is 1.5v. There are two notches on the
card but only one actually in the contact area. I looked at some
pictures of 1.5v cards on Ebay and I see what you refer to. The 1.5v
cards have two notches right in the contact area actually dividing the
contacts into three sections. I really don't want to give up the
G450. The text resolution it produces in conjunction with the 955DF
monitor is really nice.

The AGP2 cards will fit in both old and new AGP slots. When you
mentioned the G450 I had though it did support AGP2, and that's also
suggested on Matrox's FAQ:
http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/faqs/home.cfm ,
but then you write above that it has only the one "notch".

Here's a picture of a G450, is yours not similar in the cotact area?
http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage....106-143-03.jpg

The mobo was referred to an an Intel but the only thing that came up
in a Google search as a F845DA Motherboard was something from Artex
called a Foxconn. Don't know whether that is bad or good. Irrelevant
now.

I would say bad, I had assumed you meant an Intel brand board, not
just Intel chipset. Having the more expensive Intel chipset is
sometimes coinciding with overall higher cost/quality construction of
the board in general, but if it's difficult to even get specs on the
board it may be more trouble than the slight cost savings are worth.

I guess I'll replace the NIC card with the NIC/USB 2.0 combo card and
limp along a while longer.
Again, many thanks.
DFB

That $70 option you mentioned isn't the cheapest way to go, you could
instead buy an ISA 10Mb NIC, they're even being thrown away quite
often. It would slow down filesharing on a 100Mb lan but broadband is
a lot slower than 10Mb.

An other option for the NIC is an external with USB connection... just
removing the NIC, buying a ~$20 USB NIC and having the free PCI slot
for the USB2 card.

On the other hand, your system isn't just slow, it's age "might' make
it less reliable in the future. Now IS a good time to think about
replacing it.


Dave

Dave,
Again many thanks for a yeoman effort to assist a stranger.
Rather than persisting with the assumption that the G450 was the same
as the Virge and a G250 with the single slot, I pulled the card and
noted that there are two slots so it must be the newer AGP2 type. I
was unaware of the backward compatibility or that there are two types
of AGP cards until you mentioned it.

The system in question is here..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...y=44 943&rd=1
The board specs appear to be here...
http://www.arktechinc.com/fox845da.htm

Again, I do no gaming or graphics, just need more balls for
multi-tasking.

Does this look like a reasonable deal or should I run like hell?

I could probably get a new PS, mobo w/CPU, and some RAM and put it in
the case I have or into new case but I'm not sure my skill level is
up to dealing with all the connections, jumpers etc. The HDs, cards,
etc are no sweat.
Again, many thanks..
DFB

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:30:53 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:


Dave,
Again many thanks for a yeoman effort to assist a stranger.
Rather than persisting with the assumption that the G450 was the same
as the Virge and a G250 with the single slot, I pulled the card and
noted that there are two slots so it must be the newer AGP2 type. I
was unaware of the backward compatibility or that there are two types
of AGP cards until you mentioned it.

The system in question is here..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...y=44 943&rd=1
The board specs appear to be here...
http://www.arktechinc.com/fox845da.htm

Again, I do no gaming or graphics, just need more balls for
multi-tasking.

Does this look like a reasonable deal or should I run like hell?

I could probably get a new PS, mobo w/CPU, and some RAM and put it in
the case I have or into new case but I'm not sure my skill level is
up to dealing with all the connections, jumpers etc. The HDs, cards,
etc are no sweat.
Again, many thanks..
DFB

It's a budget board but possibly (somewhat) better quality than the
rest of the parts. The heatsink is the worst I've seen in a long
time, a $2 special that's bound to be loud. The case looks cheap but
if the looks don't disagree with you the larger issue might be
cooling... the front appears to have a place for a fan but no fan, but
more importantly it's doubtful a lot of air will be flowing though
either the power supply or the mostly obstructed rear fan under it...
would help a lot to cut out those stamped-in-metal fan holes before
building a system in that case, but with it already assembled that's
more work for you than if it wasn't.

The power supply "looks" like junk. Not having specs or seeing it up
close I can only guess, as it's not recognizable as any decent make
and the stamped-in grill plus 2nd socket for monitor are not present
on any decent power supply. I would assume it's really on worth
~220W, but it's conceivable that the components you'd use would only
need 220W. The larger issue would be the amount of ripple, fan
quality, lifespan, noise, omission of some saftey circuitry. Some
people have such systems run fine for years though, and when a part
does fail they simply replace it... could come out to being similar
cost, more or less, but then there's the extra downtime of the system,
time to reinstall windows if a different motherboard or other
frustrations either way.

I guess what I"m trying to write is that $200 is just a bit too cheap
for quality components unless you buy a part at a time when you see
good deals on each. Your Celeron 300 box has lasted approx. 5 years,
but I dont' think that combo on eBay would. It might last 2-4 though,
it would be your gamble, also depending on how often, how long, how
demanding your uses are. My advice would be to build your own now,
while your present system still works, taking your time at buying
parts and building something you'll have an in-depth knowledge of,
which is bound to help in the long run. It's not absolutely terrible
to use USB1 for an MP3 player in the meantime... not great to have to
wait but there's always something to do to fill a few seconds,
checking email or (whatever).



Dave

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:56:13 GMT, kony wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:30:53 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:


Dave,
Again many thanks for a yeoman effort to assist a stranger.
Rather than persisting with the assumption that the G450 was the same
as the Virge and a G250 with the single slot, I pulled the card and
noted that there are two slots so it must be the newer AGP2 type. I
was unaware of the backward compatibility or that there are two types
of AGP cards until you mentioned it.

The system in question is here..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...y=44 943&rd=1
The board specs appear to be here...
http://www.arktechinc.com/fox845da.htm

Again, I do no gaming or graphics, just need more balls for
multi-tasking.

Does this look like a reasonable deal or should I run like hell?

I could probably get a new PS, mobo w/CPU, and some RAM and put it in
the case I have or into new case but I'm not sure my skill level is
up to dealing with all the connections, jumpers etc. The HDs, cards,
etc are no sweat.
Again, many thanks..
DFB

It's a budget board but possibly (somewhat) better quality than the
rest of the parts. The heatsink is the worst I've seen in a long
time, a $2 special that's bound to be loud. The case looks cheap but
if the looks don't disagree with you the larger issue might be
cooling... the front appears to have a place for a fan but no fan, but
more importantly it's doubtful a lot of air will be flowing though
either the power supply or the mostly obstructed rear fan under it...
would help a lot to cut out those stamped-in-metal fan holes before
building a system in that case, but with it already assembled that's
more work for you than if it wasn't.

The power supply "looks" like junk. Not having specs or seeing it up
close I can only guess, as it's not recognizable as any decent make
and the stamped-in grill plus 2nd socket for monitor are not present
on any decent power supply. I would assume it's really on worth
~220W, but it's conceivable that the components you'd use would only
need 220W. The larger issue would be the amount of ripple, fan
quality, lifespan, noise, omission of some saftey circuitry. Some
people have such systems run fine for years though, and when a part
does fail they simply replace it... could come out to being similar
cost, more or less, but then there's the extra downtime of the system,
time to reinstall windows if a different motherboard or other
frustrations either way.

I guess what I"m trying to write is that $200 is just a bit too cheap
for quality components unless you buy a part at a time when you see
good deals on each. Your Celeron 300 box has lasted approx. 5 years,
but I dont' think that combo on eBay would. It might last 2-4 though,
it would be your gamble, also depending on how often, how long, how
demanding your uses are. My advice would be to build your own now,
while your present system still works, taking your time at buying
parts and building something you'll have an in-depth knowledge of,
which is bound to help in the long run. It's not absolutely terrible
to use USB1 for an MP3 player in the meantime... not great to have to
wait but there's always something to do to fill a few seconds,
checking email or (whatever).



Dave

Dave,
You da man! I've really gotten an education the last couple of days.
You've made it very clear that quality varies widely, even among parts
with theoretically identical specifications.
I'm going to chicken out and just get the 20 gig MP3 player and see
how much time it takes to load from USB1.1. The plan is to use it for
audiobooks, so there is no repeat listening. If the process is too
time consuming I'll replace the ISA modem with an SMC ISA NIC that I
still have in an IBM PS/1 I saved for back up. I'll remove the
SOHOware PCI NIC and save it, putting a USB 2.0 card in that spot.
Then I'll get a USB or serial modem of any speed as I only use it to
fax out. I'll then consider building my own system at my leisure.
It will likely be in an ATX case, I guess, max width must be less than
7 7/8" wide to fit in a computer desk. I'll have to find out what the
good brands are for the various components. There is not much worth
saving inside the current box except for the drives, NIC, and vid
card. Fortunately, money is not an issue at this stage of the game.
Can you recommend any good books on the subject of hardware? I guess
they go out of date at lightspeed, though.
Again, many thanks and best regards..
DFB

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:30:17 +0800, "Chris"
wrote:

Sounds like it. Think future expansions though, make sure there is anough
room for more cards etc if you want to add them.


"D F Bonnett" wrote in message
news
Current machine is a 300 Celeron with 256 RAM. Max CPU upgrade on the
mobo is to 466, hardly worth the bother. RAM is at max now.
Saw abare-bones 2.4 gig Celeron, USB 2, 512 DDR RAM, Intel Mobo, case,
assembled for $199 on Ebay. I can use my OS (ME), FD, HDs, burner, AGP
video card, modem NIC etc.
I don't game, do graphics etc. Just need more power for multi-tasking
and need USB 2.0 to upload to an MP3 player. I'm out of slots on this
machine and a combo card to free up a PCI slot would be another $70
into an obsolete box.
Is that a reasonably good deal for my requirements or should I look
for something else?
TIA
DFB

Chris,
Many thanks for your comments. I'd say opinions certainly vary about
these systems. BTW, there would be 4 PCI slots left over as this has
1 AGP and 5 PCI slots. Vid card would take the AGP and NIC and modem 1
each. I don't have exotic requirements, just the need for a bit more
power than the Celeron 300 w/256 RAM that I have now. I do require
reliability though.
Again, my thanks
DFB

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:30:27 GMT, D F Bonnett
wrote:


Dave,
You da man! I've really gotten an education the last couple of days.
You've made it very clear that quality varies widely, even among parts
with theoretically identical specifications.

Yep, it's more true of power supplies and heatsink "max CPU" ratings
than many other parts.

I'm going to chicken out and just get the 20 gig MP3 player and see
how much time it takes to load from USB1.1. The plan is to use it for
audiobooks, so there is no repeat listening. If the process is too
time consuming I'll replace the ISA modem with an SMC ISA NIC that I
still have in an IBM PS/1 I saved for back up. I'll remove the
SOHOware PCI NIC and save it, putting a USB 2.0 card in that spot.
Then I'll get a USB or serial modem of any speed as I only use it to
fax out. I'll then consider building my own system at my leisure.
It will likely be in an ATX case, I guess, max width must be less than
7 7/8" wide to fit in a computer desk.

It's not hard to find a case that's 7 7/8, but many are VERY close to
7 7/8... I have 3 cases near me right now, all look pretty typical
so far as width goes, all 3 are +- 1/16 of 7 7/8. Considering where
most of these are coming from I'd guess they were using metric, 20 cm.


I'll have to find out what the
good brands are for the various components. There is not much worth
saving inside the current box except for the drives, NIC, and vid
card. Fortunately, money is not an issue at this stage of the game.
Can you recommend any good books on the subject of hardware? I guess
they go out of date at lightspeed, though.
Again, many thanks and best regards..
DFB

There are lots of good choices, but lots of bad ones too. Generally
sticking with the larger name-brands helps. Intel, Asus, Gigabyte,
and MSI make some of the better motherboards. Antec, Sparkle/Fortron,
, PC Power&Cooling, Delta, et al., make good power supplies, more
accurately rated in their capacity.

Antec is easily one of the most popular cases, while Enlight makes
decent ones as well but with more dated designs and I think they
recently switched to .8mm thick metal in same models that previously
used 1.0mm thick metal. I'll build a system for someone with .8mm if
that's what the budget dictates but for my own systems I always go
with 1mm... older cases were even thicker but apparently because of
the war, there's a shortage of metal. ;-)

Aluminum is nice too but mostly from a weight savings, and even then
it has to be thicker else the case is flimsy, particularly with larger
cases. You might visit http://www.newegg.com from time to time, they
occasionally have some good deals on Antec cases including power
supply, and newegg is one of the best online resellers to deal with
while still maintaining competitive pricing. Antec cases aren't too
hard to find though, I've heard they're even sold at Staples now.
Just beware of the power supply in them, be sure it's an Antec power
supply as sometimes I've seen low-grade junk swapped in, or used in
the other name-sake variants of the Antec (actually Chen Ming makes
them and they're resold under many labels).


Dave