Does more memory require a more powerful fan?

In alt.comp.hardware, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 10:20:48 -0500, John McGaw
wrote:

On 1/22/2017 8:48 PM, micky wrote:
The t hread about free installation of 10 has piqued my interest.

Which is better, a small form factor PC running a 64bit version of 10
using 8Gigs RAM, or a full size case running a 32bit version with 4gigs?


Alternatively, I ordered 8gigs for my computer that had the bad memory**
Does that mean I need a bigger fan?

Do they sell more powerful fans that will fit the same spot. It's only
about 3x3"!!

It's already running borderline hot, according to Speccy, but when I put
in the new RAM I was going to clean out the dust, which I can see
through the plastic grill on the front of the box.

I don't thnk there is room in a SFF case for a second fan.


How well designed is the computer in question? I have three 'small form
factor PCs' in the form of two Shuttle cubes and an even-smaller mini-ITX
system. The newest Shuttle has 32gB of memory and a relatively serious
graphics card and is served by a single 3" fan for both the case and CPU
cooling and the cores in that never get beyond ~70C when running all-out at
100%. The mini-ITX is not so well designed and I worked for a long time
reworking the case's poorly-considered cooling solution and it needs a
server-grade heatsink and fan on the CPU and a high-volume 12cm extracting
air from the front (after I performed surgery on the front panel) to
maintain the sort of cooling Shuttle accomplishes with a single 3" fan.

Considering that a stick of high-performance DDR3 probably uses 5W at the
max and then only occasionally I can't see adding a few of them would push
and decent computer over the cliff.

Yeah, the heat from the RAM is not a concern after all. Several things
combined to make me get concerned.

In alt.comp.hardware, on Fri, 27 Jan 2017 06:10:23 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:17:11 -0500,
"Mayayana" wrote:

"Paul" wrote

| Duster gases are such as 1,1-difluoroethane, 1,1,1-trifluoroethane,
| or 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane. Hydrocarbons, like butane, were
| often used in the past, but their flammable nature forced
| manufacturers to use fluorocarbons.
|
| When inhaled, gas duster fumes may produce psychoactive effects
| and may be harmful to health."

Dang. Right now on the radio, the Beatles are singing "I get high". I
otoh have never in my life been high.
|

Interesting point. Compressed air has always seemed
like hype to me. There's no problem vacuuming as long
as one doesn't touch the components. I've done it many
times with no problems.

Assuming I was willing to do this, I have an upright with a hose, I have
a small shop-vac, and I'm sure that somewhere I have a little one meant
to vacuum the car. And I have a cannister kind, the main kind other
than upright. This one will blow as well as suck. Which ones would
you be willing to use? Seems to me I can regulate both the sucking
and the blowing by taping some cardboard over the tube's end.

I did put some air in my basket. Two days ago there was 4 cans of
Falcon Dust-off for 12.50, the same price as for 2 cans!, but i wasn't
quick enough, and they're up to 20 dollars now, so it's one can for me.
But I have to put together $49 and I'm 74c short. Last time I was 10
cents short. Definitely running out of things to buy. I can't buy
the air somewhere else because then I'll be 8 dollars and 74 cents
short.


I was given one of these as a gift, and it fits onto a hoover vacuum tube fitting.

https://www.amazon.ca/Micro-Vacuum-A.../dp/B000BSJCLY

I use that for cleaning the fins on a CPU heatsink, and not much more.
I don't vacuum out the whole PC with a thing like that, because it
would be too slow. The adapter has a circular ring for "breaking
the vacuum" and reducing the flow rate at the tip.

When you said this I remembered that I had one!

I wasn't even looking for it yet, but I found it just now, on top of the
antique typewriter that no one looks at anymore. . At least the hose
and the adapter with the ring for varying the air flow. Ithink there
are little tools, a brush with a 45 degree bend, a straight tube.
Haven't found them yet. Maybe they work.

Now, that kit is an "acquired taste", and I really don't use all the
fittings on the end. The main hose and adapter are a good start.

I could just as easily, on the sink in question, remove the
fan and get most of the dust blockage with a rag, once it is
exposed. Using the vacuum allows getting most of it, without
disassembly.

I probably wouldn't have bought that, if it hadn't been given to
me, but it did fit the vacuum good, so no complaint there.

I'll bet most of those are bought by people as gifts for others. I
only bought it because it was marked down 80% or so. And I like
gadgets.

But what I do will depend on how dirty it is and where the dirt is.
And whether I can blow it off with mouth, and whether the aerosol duster
has come in the mail yet.

Paul

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 23:34:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Fri, 27 Jan 2017 08:18:30 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 01:41:25 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:17:11 -0500,
"Mayayana" wrote:


Interesting point. Compressed air has always seemed
like hype to me. There's no problem vacuuming as long
as one doesn't touch the components. I've done it many
times with no problems.

Assuming I was willing to do this, I have an upright with a hose, I have
a small shop-vac, and I'm sure that somewhere I have a little one meant
to vacuum the car. And I have a cannister kind, the main kind other
than upright. This one will blow as well as suck. Which ones would
you be willing to use? Seems to me I can regulate both the sucking
and the blowing by taping some cardboard over the tube's end.


What he says is correct: "there's no problem vacuuming as long as one
doesn't touch the components."


But you shouldn't use a vacuum cleaner because there is always a risk
that you may accidentally touch a component. Saying "I've done it many
times with no problems" is like saying "I've driven without wearing a
seatbelt many times with no problems." Right, but accidents *do*
happen.

I do remember the time I was over in 5F, in Brooklyn, and I was being
careful, didn't even notice making a mistake, but I must have touched
something a lot hotter than 110V, and the shock or the fear knocked me
10 feet back. Started my shoulder dislocating every few days, when it
hadn't done that for 8 years. I think there was 2000 volts nearby.


It was many years ago, but I was once working inside a plugged-in and
turned-on radio (I don't remember why) when I accidentally touched
something I should have. Fortunately I wasn't electrocuted, but I was
knocked halfway across the room.

As I said, accidents *do* happen.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 09:56:02 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 23:34:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Fri, 27 Jan 2017 08:18:30 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 01:41:25 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:17:11 -0500,
"Mayayana" wrote:


Interesting point. Compressed air has always seemed
like hype to me. There's no problem vacuuming as long
as one doesn't touch the components. I've done it many
times with no problems.

Assuming I was willing to do this, I have an upright with a hose, I have
a small shop-vac, and I'm sure that somewhere I have a little one meant
to vacuum the car. And I have a cannister kind, the main kind other
than upright. This one will blow as well as suck. Which ones would
you be willing to use? Seems to me I can regulate both the sucking
and the blowing by taping some cardboard over the tube's end.


What he says is correct: "there's no problem vacuuming as long as one
doesn't touch the components."


But you shouldn't use a vacuum cleaner because there is always a risk
that you may accidentally touch a component. Saying "I've done it many
times with no problems" is like saying "I've driven without wearing a
seatbelt many times with no problems." Right, but accidents *do*
happen.

I do remember the time I was over in 5F, in Brooklyn, and I was being
careful, didn't even notice making a mistake, but I must have touched
something a lot hotter than 110V, and the shock or the fear knocked me
10 feet back. Started my shoulder dislocating every few days, when it
hadn't done that for 8 years. I think there was 2000 volts nearby.


It was many years ago, but I was once working inside a plugged-in and
turned-on radio (I don't remember why) when I accidentally touched
something I should have.


Sorry, typo. That should be "shouldn't have," of course.


Fortunately I wasn't electrocuted, but I was
knocked halfway across the room.

As I said, accidents *do* happen.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 08:59:29 -0500, micky wrote:

====snip====


I'll bet most of those are bought by people as gifts for others. I
only bought it because it was marked down 80% or so. And I like
gadgets.

But what I do will depend on how dirty it is and where the dirt is.
And whether I can blow it off with mouth, and whether the aerosol duster
has come in the mail yet.

I've been vacuuming out PC cases for nigh on two decades without the
slightest hint of ESD induced damage. During that time, I've seen the
risk of ESD from using vacuum cleaners to clean out electronic devices
(notably PCs) mentioned almost every time this question of cleaning the
accumulating dust out of such kit is raised.

This begged the question in my mind as to whether the risk of ESD when
vacuuming out a PC is a fallacy or, at the very least, overstated or even
whether I've been saved from harming the many PCs that had been entrusted
into my care simply by pure 'dumb luck'.

Otoh, it could be that the Nilfisk GS80 that my dad, God rest his soul,
gifted to me when he retired from his job of maintaining the air
conditioning plant for the IBM mainframes owned/leased by the Finance
House that he had been working for over two decades ago, was specced up
for clean room use and kitted out with antistatic hose and attachments to
suppress the ESD hazard.

The question of 'dumb luck' in my case, most likely arises out of my not
giving the ESD risk of using a vacuum cleaner a moment's thought and a
long time ignorance of the possibility that my favourite vacuum cleaner
of choice just happened to be ESD risk free by design[1].

Since my own experience of (aggressively) vacuuming out PCs safely is
most likely based on using an ESD protected model of Nilfisk vacuum
cleaner, I'm still non the wiser as to whether the risk of ESD damage
using common or garden domestic vacuum cleaners is real, overstated or
imagined. Sorry, I'm afraid to say my vacuuming success can't be used as
anecdotal guidance in the matter of safely cleaning dust and fluff out of
IT kit. :-(

[1] I've tried looking for the specifications of that GS80 to see whether
there is any mention of an antistatic feature. Unfortunately, whilst you
can still buy genuine Nilfisk spares for this model, it's one that is so
old (either a '64 or a '74 model) that Nilfisk either no longer have the
documentation or else aren't prepared to post it up on a webpage (it
might just exist as a paper document which they CBA to digitise and
publish).

However, I did come across mention of antistatic hoses and attachments
when browsing Nilfisk's commercial and industrial product offerings and
the fact that the hose supplied with my GS80 seems to be made of natural
rubber encasing a steel reinforcing coil rather than the cheap plastic
tat that unfortunately passes for vacuum cleaning hose these days, I
rather fancy that it is indeed an anti-static hose, bearing in mind the
fact that it was also once used for cleaning a mainframe computer room.

The only puzzling aspect with regard to the application of antistatic
measures with a double insulated appliance such as that GS80 vacuum
cleaner is just how do you make provision for a grounding connection? My
best guess is that Nilfisk are relying on the polarised mains connectors
(at *each* end of the line cord) to guarantee a connection to the neutral
pin via a 2.2 Megohm safety resistor. They do make it a point that only
genuine Nilfisk mains cords be used to replace worn or faulty mains cords.

A further thought occurs to me in regard of static build up along the
typical length of plastic hose becoming a problem simply on account of
there being such a lengthy path for the moving air and dust mixture[2] to
build up a dangerously high static voltage. It may be that using a
conductive hose with a metallic bodied vacuum cleaner is enough on its
own to eliminate the ESD problem without having to ground the vacuum
cleaner via a safety earth. It's quite possible that the body of the
cleaning operative may be the only earth leakage path required to prevent
static build up once the source of the problem has been tamed in this way.

If there is an ESD issue with vacuuming IT kit, it's quite possible it
only arose once the vacuum cleaner manufacturers started cutting costs by
replacing expensive metal with cheap plastic.

[2] Static voltage risk with vacuum cleaners is due to a phenomena known
as tribolelectric generation (rubbing materials together such as dust
particles in an air stream rubbing against the inside of a an insulated
hose or a metallic adapter on the end of an insulated hose).

Presumably, if you're holding onto a metal attachment on the end of the
vacuum cleaner hose with one hand whilst holding onto the case with the
other, the risk of ESD should be eliminated. The movement of air (and
dust) around the components themselves won't be able to build up a
dangerous static voltage on the component connections since they'll
simply be discharged to case ground continuously and many orders of
magnitude faster than they can build up (which would neatly account for
why using a dry paintbrush has never ime caused ESD induced damage). The
danger of ESD from vacuuming is more a consequence of static build up on
the end of the hose rather than a rapid flow of dusty air around the
components themselves.

--
Johnny B Good

"Mayayana" wrote:

"Paul" wrote

| Duster gases are such as 1,1-difluoroethane, 1,1,1-trifluoroethane,
| or 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane. Hydrocarbons, like butane, were
| often used in the past, but their flammable nature forced
| manufacturers to use fluorocarbons.
|
| When inhaled, gas duster fumes may produce psychoactive effects
| and may be harmful to health."
|

Interesting point. Compressed air has always seemed
like hype to me. There's no problem vacuuming as long
as one doesn't touch the components. I've done it many
times with no problems.

Compressed air is _much_ more effective. I was able to borrow a small
unit used to drive nail guns etc. It blew out a spectacular amount of
dust. Much more than I could vacuum. Here's the type of unit
http://tinyurl.com/hp28z98.

In alt.comp.hardware, on Sun, 29 Jan 2017 04:01:30 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 08:59:29 -0500, micky wrote:

====snip====


I'll bet most of those are bought by people as gifts for others. I
only bought it because it was marked down 80% or so. And I like
gadgets.

But what I do will depend on how dirty it is and where the dirt is.
And whether I can blow it off with mouth, and whether the aerosol duster
has come in the mail yet.

I've been vacuuming out PC cases for nigh on two decades without the
slightest hint of ESD induced damage. During that time, I've seen the
risk of ESD from using vacuum cleaners to clean out electronic devices
(notably PCs) mentioned almost every time this question of cleaning the
accumulating dust out of such kit is raised.

This begged the question in my mind as to whether the risk of ESD when
vacuuming out a PC is a fallacy or, at the very least, overstated or even
whether I've been saved from harming the many PCs that had been entrusted
into my care simply by pure 'dumb luck'.

Otoh, it could be that the Nilfisk GS80 that my dad, God rest his soul,
gifted to me when he retired from his job of maintaining the air
conditioning plant for the IBM mainframes owned/leased by the Finance
House that he had been working for over two decades ago, was specced up
for clean room use and kitted out with antistatic hose and attachments to
suppress the ESD hazard.

So are you saying your father made you immune to ESD. That's wonderful.

My father taught me not to complain when the dentist made something
hurt.

Oh, no, you're crediting the vacuum cleaner. When I first skimmed this,
I thought that was humor.

The question of 'dumb luck' in my case, most likely arises out of my not
giving the ESD risk of using a vacuum cleaner a moment's thought and a
long time ignorance of the possibility that my favourite vacuum cleaner
of choice just happened to be ESD risk free by design[1].

Since my own experience of (aggressively) vacuuming out PCs safely is
most likely based on using an ESD protected model of Nilfisk vacuum
cleaner, I'm still non the wiser as to whether the risk of ESD damage
using common or garden domestic vacuum cleaners is real, overstated or
imagined. Sorry, I'm afraid to say my vacuuming success can't be used as
anecdotal guidance in the matter of safely cleaning dust and fluff out of
IT kit. :-(

[1] I've tried looking for the specifications of that GS80 to see whether
there is any mention of an antistatic feature. Unfortunately, whilst you
can still buy genuine Nilfisk spares for this model, it's one that is so
old (either a '64 or a '74 model) that Nilfisk either no longer have the
documentation or else aren't prepared to post it up on a webpage (it
might just exist as a paper document which they CBA to digitise and
publish).

However, I did come across mention of antistatic hoses and attachments
when browsing Nilfisk's commercial and industrial product offerings and
the fact that the hose supplied with my GS80 seems to be made of natural
rubber encasing a steel reinforcing coil rather than the cheap plastic
tat that unfortunately passes for vacuum cleaning hose these days, I
rather fancy that it is indeed an anti-static hose, bearing in mind the
fact that it was also once used for cleaning a mainframe computer room.

The only puzzling aspect with regard to the application of antistatic
measures with a double insulated appliance such as that GS80 vacuum
cleaner is just how do you make provision for a grounding connection? My
best guess is that Nilfisk are relying on the polarised mains connectors
(at *each* end of the line cord) to guarantee a connection to the neutral
pin via a 2.2 Megohm safety resistor. They do make it a point that only
genuine Nilfisk mains cords be used to replace worn or faulty mains cords.

A further thought occurs to me in regard of static build up along the
typical length of plastic hose becoming a problem simply on account of
there being such a lengthy path for the moving air and dust mixture[2] to
build up a dangerously high static voltage. It may be that using a
conductive hose with a metallic bodied vacuum cleaner is enough on its
own to eliminate the ESD problem without having to ground the vacuum
cleaner via a safety earth. It's quite possible that the body of the
cleaning operative may be the only earth leakage path required to prevent
static build up once the source of the problem has been tamed in this way.

If there is an ESD issue with vacuuming IT kit, it's quite possible it
only arose once the vacuum cleaner manufacturers started cutting costs by
replacing expensive metal with cheap plastic.

You can't blame them if it didn't cause any bad side effect until a)
home computers were invented, b) enough time went by for them to be
dusty. They probably switched to plastic 20 years earlier. I actually
have a cannister vacuum cleaner, can't remember where I got it -- I know
I didnt' pay for it -- with a cloth hose, and I must have gotten some
acid on the hose because a couple inches of it got bad. I spliced it
with a piece of metal pipe. I would think there would have been a long
wire spring in it but I don't remember that.

[2] Static voltage risk with vacuum cleaners is due to a phenomena known
as tribolelectric generation (rubbing materials together such as dust
particles in an air stream rubbing against the inside of a an insulated
hose or a metallic adapter on the end of an insulated hose).

Presumably, if you're holding onto a metal attachment on the end of the
vacuum cleaner hose with one hand whilst holding onto the case with the
other, the risk of ESD should be eliminated. The movement of air (and

I would think so. I've never actually gotten a static shock here. I
used to get them someplace with better carpeting, but I bought the house
from a young guy who didnt' buy the most expensive. Synthetic I guess.

dust) around the components themselves won't be able to build up a
dangerous static voltage on the component connections since they'll
simply be discharged to case ground continuously and many orders of

Could I try it out by vacuuming away from the PC and see if I made the
slightest spark touching the stove, maybe. Is an electric stove
grounded. I would think so. If not that, the breaker box?

magnitude faster than they can build up (which would neatly account for
why using a dry paintbrush has never ime caused ESD induced damage). The
danger of ESD from vacuuming is more a consequence of static build up on
the end of the hose rather than a rapid flow of dusty air around the
components themselves.

Hmmm. As luck would have it, i went to Target tonight to pick up a
Logitech K400 wireless keyboard for when I'm too lazy to get out of bed.

It was $20 Friday on sale from $30 they said, and tonight when I looked
in the computer accesory department, it was $30!! But online now, it's
still $20. Things are sometimes cheaper online but I don't think that's
fair, and I dont' think it's in the corporate interest. Shoudlnt' they
reward people who go to the trouble to go to the store? It will make
them more likely to come back.

And right next to it was aerosol air, for $5 a can, Cheaper than online
which was $8. Also 10 oz. Endust instead of Dust-Off. This raises
the question, is it better to get the dust off, or to end it. Should we
take up arms and end it? Or should we decide that life is hard and end
it?

I think it's cheaper because the brand online uses air from K4 (the less
touristy mountain 20 miles from K2), and the brand I bought uses air
from next to the waste disposal facility on the south side.

In alt.comp.hardware, on Sat, 28 Jan 2017 09:56:02 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 23:34:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Fri, 27 Jan 2017 08:18:30 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 01:41:25 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:17:11 -0500,
"Mayayana" wrote:


Interesting point. Compressed air has always seemed
like hype to me. There's no problem vacuuming as long
as one doesn't touch the components. I've done it many
times with no problems.

Assuming I was willing to do this, I have an upright with a hose, I have
a small shop-vac, and I'm sure that somewhere I have a little one meant
to vacuum the car. And I have a cannister kind, the main kind other
than upright. This one will blow as well as suck. Which ones would
you be willing to use? Seems to me I can regulate both the sucking
and the blowing by taping some cardboard over the tube's end.


What he says is correct: "there's no problem vacuuming as long as one
doesn't touch the components."


But you shouldn't use a vacuum cleaner because there is always a risk
that you may accidentally touch a component. Saying "I've done it many
times with no problems" is like saying "I've driven without wearing a
seatbelt many times with no problems." Right, but accidents *do*
happen.

I do remember the time I was over in 5F, in Brooklyn, and I was being
careful, didn't even notice making a mistake, but I must have touched
something a lot hotter than 110V, and the shock or the fear knocked me
10 feet back. Started my shoulder dislocating every few days, when it
hadn't done that for 8 years. I think there was 2000 volts nearby.


It was many years ago, but I was once working inside a plugged-in and
turned-on radio (I don't remember why) when I accidentally touched
something I should have. Fortunately I wasn't electrocuted, but I was
knocked halfway across the room.

As I said, accidents *do* happen.

When I was 12 or 13, I was trying to fix the Lionel train transformer,
and I had no meter or anything. I just took it apart and looked at it,
and eventually I noticed it was plugged in but I hadn't gotten a shock.
So I replaced the plug.

In alt.comp.hardware, on Sun, 29 Jan 2017 16:48:44 +1100, Gordon Levi
wrote:

"Mayayana" wrote:

"Paul" wrote

| Duster gases are such as 1,1-difluoroethane, 1,1,1-trifluoroethane,
| or 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane. Hydrocarbons, like butane, were
| often used in the past, but their flammable nature forced
| manufacturers to use fluorocarbons.
|
| When inhaled, gas duster fumes may produce psychoactive effects
| and may be harmful to health."
|

Interesting point. Compressed air has always seemed
like hype to me. There's no problem vacuuming as long
as one doesn't touch the components. I've done it many
times with no problems.

Compressed air is _much_ more effective. I was able to borrow a small
unit used to drive nail guns etc. It blew out a spectacular amount of
dust. Much more than I could vacuum. Here's the type of unit
http://tinyurl.com/hp28z98.

You know, I have something like that too. At an auto junkyard near
here they also take in other junk, and one time I bought the pump, 2 gas
weedwackers and something else I can't recall. I coudlnt' make one good
weedwacker from two bad ones, but I think I fixed the 3rd thing and the
pump worked, once I bought a hose etc. I have an attachment with a
trigger that's meant to blow.

I keep this think in the kitchen because Idon't know where else but
ccan't I turn it on t here and check for static. I know you don't worry
but I'm a newbie and people tell me to be careful.

In alt.comp.hardware, on Sat, 28 Jan 2017 10:34:54 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:


It was many years ago, but I was once working inside a plugged-in and
turned-on radio (I don't remember why) when I accidentally touched
something I should have.=20


Sorry, typo. That should be "shouldn't have," of course.


I figured. Though I know people who need shocks periodicaly to revive
them. I think most were zombies when they were young.