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#21
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Ron, it is quite apparent that you do not know who you are posting with
on this newsgroup. These people, some of them work and/or have a financial interest in generic ink resellers aka known as relabelers. Others have some other interest in protecting these unprofessional companies who just use the word compatible (it really only means that the ink will squirt through the heads and the carts shoud physically fit the printer. They have no eye to measure print quality and they lie about everything else. They all but will not admit have problems with clogged printheads and fading but they are focused on thinking they are saving money and on how the OEMs are screwing them on ink. The only point they have is that OEM ink is really overpriced. What the industry needs is a generic ink mfg/formulator that can make prefilled carts and sell them in all venues (online and in stores) for under $5.00 that has the print quality, faded resistance, of the OEM and will have no greater risk of printhead clogging than OEM. Then you will see OEMs adjust their prices. If you notice that lower priced printers (under $200) are subsidized by high ink prices but the wide format printers are not cheap. Ink is still overpriced for these and so is the large sized paper. While digital DSLR cameraa are coming down they are still way overpriced compared to their film counterparts. I would like to see the Nikon DX and the Canon 5D under $500 and the cheaper DSLRs around $300 like the film cameras but that will never happen. The main thing is that there are a core group of posters that are aka like religious fundamentalists that will refute anything you say that makes sense and will twist any reviews to their liking. They have swelled heads and big egos. Some are high school kids and others are just old farts stuck in their ways. If you look at reviews in PC World, PC Magazine and other sources they all say the same thing. I hope you keep following this ng as it is nice to post with someone who makes some sense. Ron wrote: 1. Do you sell enlarged photos printed on your home printer using aftermarket inks? 2. Have you also searched various user groups of home printers for serious photographers, and seen the issues they have had with stuffed printing heads and fading prints? 3. Have you read the the link that I posted previously? If so then scientifically refute it. Personally I could'nt care less what type of ink you print with. But if you were selling your work professionally and if I knew it was printed with cheap aftermarket ink I wouldnt touch it with a forty foot pole. If you are happy using it for your own personal photo printing then good for you. I have been there and done the aftermarket ink use and I would never ever sell professionally photos from those inks. Cheers Ron "milou" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:57:37 +1000, "Ron" wrote: G'day all. I was reading in a recently released photography magazine that aftermarket inks are far inferior to the branded ones. The official tester stated that fading of prints will occur in a short period of time. I am not trying to start a flaming war. I have extensively used aftermarket inks but the results are now in. The guy whom was quoted in the article is the one who extensively conducts print lifes of printers and various print papers. This is of some concern to me as I sell prints of my photos, fortunately I had the foresight to have my prints professionally printed. Sorry if I have disappointed you all. I read in a magazine that people had been abducted by aliens, with great details from some of the abductees. I read in another that several people had met Elvis since he died. Because it's printed in a magazine and some guy says so, does it make it true? |
#22
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
TJ wrote: Ron wrote: Frank I suggest you read the study and then refute it scientifically. I have previously mentioned that I have printed extensively with aftermarket inks and I would in no way sell a photo for several hundred dollars printed with them. The last thing I need are numerous complaints and angst from customers with fading prints. A printed, nicely framed photo that retains its colour in someone's house often leads to more sales. Cheers all. Ron from Downunder. If I were in the business of selling photos for "hundreds of dollars" I'd have them professionally printed, too. I wouldn't use ANY combination of home printer/ink/paper for such prints. Home inkjets just don't have the capability to produce that level of work. BTW, I've seen professionally-printed material fade in a few days of direct sunlight. He does not live on a farm. It is known that pigmented print results can last without fading for over 100 years and longer if framed behind glass. Wet process prints can fade in less time. Most peple who buy professional prints have them framed behine glass and the more expensive ones will use museum glass. But aftermarkets do have their place. If, like most printers, some 90% of your prints aren't meant to last for more than a few years, stored away in a file or an album, or used for throwaways like brochures or flyers, then aftermarket inks, plain paper, and home printers are fine. If you want something to last long enough to look new to your great-grandchildren, don't use inkjets. Ron see what I mean Oh, and before Measekite warns you about me and my posts, I'm a farmer, Moo and I know very little about the professional photography business. However, I DO know this: In January 2004 I printed an enlargement of a photo of my brother to display at his funeral. I used an Epson Stylus Color 800 printer, Office Max photo paper he had given me for Christmas less than two weeks before, and the ink I happened to have in the printer, the cheapest "compatible" aftermarket ink cartridges I could find on the Internet. After the funeral, my mother hung the framed photo on her bedroom wall. When that photo fades, I will happily print another for her. This is one of their logic statements. Well Ron tell your customer that when the photo fades to ship it back to you at your expense and you will take the frame apart and print another one and then ship it back to them also at your expense and see how much money you make. :'( However, it still looks as good to me today as it did when I printed it. TJ |
#23
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
TJ wrote: TJ wrote: Ron wrote: Frank I suggest you read the study and then refute it scientifically. I have previously mentioned that I have printed extensively with aftermarket inks and I would in no way sell a photo for several hundred dollars printed with them. The last thing I need are numerous complaints and angst from customers with fading prints. A printed, nicely framed photo that retains its colour in someone's house often leads to more sales. Cheers all. Ron from Downunder. If I were in the business of selling photos for "hundreds of dollars" I'd have them professionally printed, too. I wouldn't use ANY combination of home printer/ink/paper for such prints. Home inkjets just don't have the capability to produce that level of work. BTW, I've seen professionally-printed material fade in a few days of direct sunlight. But aftermarkets do have their place. If, like most printers, some 90% of your prints aren't meant to last for more than a few years, stored away in a file or an album, or used for throwaways like brochures or flyers, then aftermarket inks, plain paper, and home printers are fine. If you want something to last long enough to look new to your great-grandchildren, don't use inkjets. Oh, and before Measekite warns you about me and my posts, I'm a farmer, and I know little about the professional photography business. However, I DO know this: In January 2004 I printed an enlargement of a photo of my brother to display at his funeral. I used an Epson Stylus Color 800 printer, Office Max photo paper he had given me for Christmas less than two weeks before, and the ink I happened to have in the printer, the cheapest "compatible" aftermarket ink cartridges I could find on the Internet. After the funeral, my mother hung the framed photo on her bedroom wall. When that photo fades, I will happily print another for her. However, it still looks as good to me today as it did when I printed it. TJ I forgot to mention - and this is for your information, Measekite - that I had purchased the printer a year before at a church sale That explains everything for one dollar. When I got it home I found it completely clogged - with Epson OEM ink. TJ |
#24
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Ron wrote:
A TROLL!!! Lou |
#25
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Ron wrote:
1. Do you sell enlarged photos printed on your home printer using aftermarket inks? 2. Have you also searched various user groups of home printers for serious photographers, and seen the issues they have had with stuffed printing heads and fading prints? 3. Have you read the the link that I posted previously? If so then scientifically refute it. Personally I could'nt care less what type of ink you print with. But if you were selling your work professionally and if I knew it was printed with cheap aftermarket ink I wouldnt touch it with a forty foot pole. If you are happy using it for your own personal photo printing then good for you. I have been there and done the aftermarket ink use and I would never ever sell professionally photos from those inks. Cheers Ron You're posting an opinion based on your personal preference. But I'm still confused by your original post that you use after market inks but you have your prints done (printed) professionally. What exactly does comparing a home/business printer using after market inks have to do with paying a professional printer to print your prints? I and most others done see any point at all in making that comparison. Especially since most who post in this ng are not, repeat, not, professional photographers or printers? Frank p.s. Only our local imbecile moron ****wit idiot and oem stooge, who has NEVER, EVER used after market inks, and will suck up to anyone who knocks them, enjoys drooling over your little rants. Loser he is. Cheers! |
#26
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Ron wrote:
3. Have you read the the link that I posted previously? If so then scientifically refute it. You want it, you got it! From Consumer Reports July 2006... ..."We did find some exceptions. Office Depot cartridges for Hewlett-Packard printers, the top-selling brand, matched HP ink for photo quality and trimmed 20 cents off the cost of an 8x10-inch photo. Staples cartridges for Canon printers and Epson-compatible inks from online suppliers Carrot Ink and PrintPal matched the photo quality of the printer makers’ cartridges at slightly lower cost." G'day mate! Frank |
#27
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Thus spake milou:
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:57:37 +1000, "Ron" wrote: G'day all. I was reading in a recently released photography magazine that aftermarket inks are far inferior to the branded ones. The official tester stated that fading of prints will occur in a short period of time. I am not trying to start a flaming war. I have extensively used aftermarket inks but the results are now in. The guy whom was quoted in the article is the one who extensively conducts print lifes of printers and various print papers. This is of some concern to me as I sell prints of my photos, fortunately I had the foresight to have my prints professionally printed. Sorry if I have disappointed you all. I read in a magazine that people had been abducted by aliens, with great details from some of the abductees. I read in another that several people had met Elvis since he died. Because it's printed in a magazine and some guy says so, does it make it true? No it doesn't. However, it's a fact of human existence that we tend to be a lot less discriminating with stuff we agree with than stuff we don't. A while back, PC Pro (UK) published quite an extensive article on inkjet printers & their running costs - taking into account the cleaning cycle for each model. They also rubbished one particular brand for high running costs & poor quality results. This magazine regularly carries adverts from the main manufacturers so I don't buy the accusation that if the OEM's participate in any way in a survey that the results /must/ be skewed. Impartiality is a very illusive goal which just ain't always obtainable & is also no guarantee of quality or accuracy when it is. My reaction to the article is rather contradictory. On one hand it sounds very plausible but delving a little deeper, it tends to be very black or white in that it treats all the 3rd party inks as being equally bad & without really comparing the main brands with each over regarding quality but only longevity. I certainly don't trust the manufacturers who have tried on tricks like rejecting a previously unused cartridge beyond its use by date or cartridges that still have substantial amounts of ink left but are indicated as being empty etc. The branded cartridges have also come under scrutiny from consumer protection organisations more often than is probably wise for the likes of Epson, Canon & HP et al. One think in the article's favour was the willingness to attribute differences of opinion quite openly as in the case of Kodak disagreeing regarding the test methodology. I picked up a digital photo magazine a couple of hours ago for a quick browse which mentioned 3rd party black inks for use in some up-market A2+ printers without batting an eyelid - would they do so without some knowledge or a 2nd thought to the likes of future advertising by the main players? My suspicion is that these manufacturers *are* overcharging so only have themselves to blame for such a flourishing 3rd party market. Capitalism is so damned cynical! -- Basically, I hate people who preface nearly every sentence with the word 'basically'! |
#28
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Paul B wrote: Thus spake milou: On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:57:37 +1000, "Ron" wrote: G'day all. I was reading in a recently released photography magazine that aftermarket inks are far inferior to the branded ones. The official tester stated that fading of prints will occur in a short period of time. I am not trying to start a flaming war. I have extensively used aftermarket inks but the results are now in. The guy whom was quoted in the article is the one who extensively conducts print lifes of printers and various print papers. This is of some concern to me as I sell prints of my photos, fortunately I had the foresight to have my prints professionally printed. Sorry if I have disappointed you all. I read in a magazine that people had been abducted by aliens, with great details from some of the abductees. I read in another that several people had met Elvis since he died. Because it's printed in a magazine and some guy says so, does it make it true? No it doesn't. However, it's a fact of human existence that we tend to be a lot less discriminating with stuff we agree with than stuff we don't. A while back, PC Pro (UK) published quite an extensive article on inkjet printers & their running costs - taking into account the cleaning cycle for each model. They also rubbished one particular brand for high running costs & poor quality results. This magazine regularly carries adverts from the main manufacturers so I don't buy the accusation that if the OEM's participate in any way in a survey that the results /must/ be skewed. Impartiality is a very illusive goal which just ain't always obtainable & is also no guarantee of quality or accuracy when it is. My reaction to the article is rather contradictory. On one hand it sounds very plausible but delving a little deeper, it tends to be very black or white in that it treats all the 3rd party inks as being equally bad & without really comparing the main brands with each over regarding quality but only longevity. I certainly don't trust the manufacturers who have tried on tricks like rejecting a previously unused cartridge beyond its use by date or cartridges that still have substantial amounts of ink left but are indicated as being empty etc. The branded cartridges have also come under scrutiny from consumer protection organisations more often than is probably wise for the likes of Epson, Canon & HP et al. One think in the article's favour was the willingness to attribute differences of opinion quite openly as in the case of Kodak disagreeing regarding the test methodology. I picked up a digital photo magazine a couple of hours ago for a quick browse which mentioned 3rd party black inks for use in some up-market A2+ printers without batting an eyelid - would they do so without some knowledge or a 2nd thought to the likes of future advertising by the main players? I can give the following statement some credit. My suspicion is that these manufacturers *are* overcharging so only have themselves to blame for such a flourishing 3rd party market. Capitalism is so damned cynical! |
#29
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
If you are selling photos for hundreds of dollars a piece and are
printing them at home then I don't see you as much of a "professional". I don't care if you print them with OEM or compatible inks. I think you are ripping off your customers. Besides here is a quote from a post you made on March 6th of this year: "I bought a big bottle of black ink to use with my BJC6000 over three years ago and it is still producing absolutely fine results with a ip3000. No clogging, no nuthin' but good results." No mention of fading in this response even after using the same bottle of compatible ink for three years. Now you read an article in a photography rag (we all know everything they write is beyond reproach) and you are suddenly an OEM ink convert? Want to know my test? "I" look at pictures "I" printed three years ago and see no noticeable fading and then I grab a calculator and figure up all the cash I have saved buying compatible ink and I am more than satisfied with the results. This is a MUCH BETTER test than any I can get from a photography rag that are really whores for their advertisers who just happen to be OEM ink suppliers from the printer manufacturers. Canon, Epson, HP, Lexmark etc. just love people like you. Ron wrote: Frank I suggest you read the study and then refute it scientifically. I have previously mentioned that I have printed extensively with aftermarket inks and I would in no way sell a photo for several hundred dollars printed with them. The last thing I need are numerous complaints and angst from customers with fading prints. A printed, nicely framed photo that retains its colour in someone's house often leads to more sales. Cheers all. Ron from Downunder. "Frank" wrote in message ... Ron wrote: --------snip the quip-------------- It's official! Only that piece of **** moron measher****head believes that kind of bull****! Good'day mate! Frank |
#30
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It's Official - aftermarket Inks much inferior
Ron, I think that you must have come into this group only lately.
Wilhelm's report was published previously in the US, and has already been discussed at length right here. Further, excellent reports have been done on the Web by at least one professional photographer who has been able to give good justifications for using specific ink sources -- note my use of the word "specific." Wilhelm made a big fundamental mistake in his method: he selected his aftermarket ink indiscriminately. Or so it would seem. Many regulars in this group are serious photo printers who mostly use Canon printers. None of these people would ever consider using the aftermarket inks that Wilhelm tested -- Wilhelm only tested garbage ink! As in many other cases in which the free market prevails (not like the de-facto situation with computer printer manufacturers who skirt American laws against restriaint of trade), the aftermarket ink marketplace contains a range of products. As is normal in Capitalism when it's fair and balanced, the buyer is free to choose between products that range from excellent to awful. Wilhelm chose only the awful. Let me recommend to you that you ask right here for recommendatations from serious photo printers -- recommendations from people who have had excellent experiences with their aftermarket inks. They'll be happy to share with you the names of excellent inks that they've used. A few of these folks have been quite diligent in doing their own fading tests under conditions that come close to rivaling Wilhelm's. You may find that you can save yourself some money and still provide excellent results for your clients. I'll admit, though, that in some cases in which we decided (among ourselves here) that the OEM inks were superior in longevity to all the independents, I'd probably be inclined to go OEM myself when it came to photos I was selling -- I feel that I'd have an obligation to give them the best. But I believe that there have been some cases in which the aftermarket product is actually superior. I have had some experience with photography myself, and when I worked at a large college, I had lunch every day with the photography instructors -- all of whom were seasoned advertising professionals. I found a lot to respect, especially concerning their knowledge of their tools. I know of one aftermarket ink company ("Universal") who told me that they have been selling their ink and photo paper to the US Navy, which chose their combination for durability under nautical conditions. Interestingly, the fellow I spoke with said that he sees little point in spending the money on his own company's paper unless I had a special need for it. Anyway, the point of this is: don't generalize before doing your own research -- the research in this case being right here in this newsgroup. I have no personal axe to grind he I don't use a Canon printer, and in my own world, there's little sense in printing photos on my inkjet printers (two HPs). However, I have bought refilled cartridges and have begun to refill my own. Mostly, unlike Wilhelm, I've used supplies that have been specifically recommended either by people here or by the aforementioned photographer (whose name has escaped me). I have nothing against HP's materials (but note that at least 60% of the company's profits come from ink and toner!!!!). Their ink's great. A Mercedes Benz is a great car, too; only I'm not wealthy enough to keep it maintained. Richard |
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