Grounding an ungrounded outlet

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
bud-- wrote:

Old wires are probably rubber insulated. I never heard of tar (except
the very early Edison DC days). The biggest problem with old rubber
insulation is behind an old ceiling light where the insulation got too
hot. But that can also make plastic insulation very brittle.

Tar was a denotative description. It might've been rubber at one time
but over decades it dried out and deteriorated into what is probably
best described as looking like old dried out tar. Also, for even older
homes, fabric alone was used for insulation. Scary. To make the cloth
not slide on the wire, some tar-like sticky goo was used to affix it to
the wire. It wasn't rubber. It was asphalt (hence tar).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

Even if you were lucky in getting the old tar-laden cloth-covered wiring
routed through rigid conduit, that didn't help in restringing new wires.
As you pulled the old wire out of the conduit, it would fill up and get
plugged with all the crumbling cloth and asphalt that came off the wire.

Two things, If the op indeed had a conduit, he would also have a ground

Availability doesn't dictate hookup. If there is conduit (which the OP
hasn't mentioned but then he probably hasn't checked yet), and if it is
truly sufficiently grounded, a ground might be available but after
running a pigtail from the outlet to the metal box. However, if the OP
is stuck with the tar-impregnated cloth-covered wiring, just trying to
pull the outlet out of the box will result in crumbling the insulation
so it will be difficult to add the pigtail without replacing the other
wiring, too.

and second, Knob and tube was run exposed on knob insulators and
through short ceramic tubes

Nope, not always bare wire. Also tar-impregnated cloth covered wire.
For example, click on the picture in the wiki article to which I linked.
That is NOT bare wire (except at the ends that wrap around the stud in
the center of the ceramic insulator).


I haven't got a clue as to your statement above. K&T was never bare. It is
insulated single conductor, run between insulators, and through ceramic
tubes where penetrating framing members

RBM wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
VanguardLH wrote:

RBM wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
bud-- wrote:

Old wires are probably rubber insulated. I never heard of tar (except
the very early Edison DC days). The biggest problem with old rubber
insulation is behind an old ceiling light where the insulation got too
hot. But that can also make plastic insulation very brittle.

Tar was a denotative description. It might've been rubber at one time
but over decades it dried out and deteriorated into what is probably
best described as looking like old dried out tar. Also, for even older
homes, fabric alone was used for insulation. Scary. To make the cloth
not slide on the wire, some tar-like sticky goo was used to affix it to
the wire. It wasn't rubber. It was asphalt (hence tar).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

Even if you were lucky in getting the old tar-laden cloth-covered
wiring
routed through rigid conduit, that didn't help in restringing new
wires.
As you pulled the old wire out of the conduit, it would fill up and get
plugged with all the crumbling cloth and asphalt that came off the
wire.

Two things, If the op indeed had a conduit, he would also have a ground

Availability doesn't dictate hookup. If there is conduit (which the OP
hasn't mentioned but then he probably hasn't checked yet), and if it is
truly sufficiently grounded, a ground might be available but after
running a pigtail from the outlet to the metal box. However, if the OP
is stuck with the tar-impregnated cloth-covered wiring, just trying to
pull the outlet out of the box will result in crumbling the insulation
so it will be difficult to add the pigtail without replacing the other
wiring, too.

Oh, and before you say that the metal bracket on the outlet would
connect to the metal box to provide the connect to the ground lug in the
socket, I have seen plenty of installations where the home user mounted
the outlet bracket outside the plaster or sheetrock wall and even had a
fiber washer between the screw head and metal bracket so there was no
ground (besides, you're not supposed to use the screw from the bracket
to the threaded hole in the metal box for grounding). Because of wall
damage or bracket bending, I've seen users that inserted wads of paper
behind the bracket to level it out or bring it forward so they could
mount the faceplate. I've also seen metal conduit run up to a plastic
box (that the home owner used by punching a hole in sheetrock next to a
2x4 stud to nail in at an angle). Pretty hard to get a ground on just
the metal collar holding the conduit to the plastic box without the
conduit wandering away from the box and you can't get it back to
rethread the collar.

If the conduit or Greenfield is a remnant and doesn't actually go to a
ground, like it hits Romex or some other Frankenstein job, then you
don't get a ground just because it's metal at one end. Conduit and
Greenfield don't guarantee a ground path but chances are good and it's
much more likely than if you saw K&T strung around. Rather than rely on
a continuity test, you probably should actually visually inspect just
how the conduit or Greenfield are grounded.

I merely stated that if he had conduit feeding the box, he would have a
ground. I said nothing about how that equipment ground would connect to a
grounding receptacle, however the two standard NEC recognized methods are by
using a grounding conductor screwed or clipped to the metal box, or self
grounding receptacle. Yes, the screws that connect the receptacle to the box
are the grounding path on this type of outlet. Secondly , you show that you
are a complete nube in stating that the wire would crumble by removing the
outlet, in fact, despite the age of this type conductor , unless it has been
subject to heat, typically from light fixtures, it has often remained as
supple as the day it was installed. Many later type conductors with rubber
coverings, on the other hand have not faired so well. I might also suggest
that you try researching your information somewhere other than wikopedia, an
often poor source for factual information

Don't have to research. Help restore 2 very old houses and K&t was in
one and Franken-job in the other with mix of conduit and greenfield (but
conduit has the old cloth-tar covered wire - and it did crumble). Don't
need to guess. Don't need to Google. Been there, done that.

RBM wrote:

VanguardLH wrote ...

RBM wrote:

and second, Knob and tube was run exposed on knob insulators and
through short ceramic tubes

Nope, not always bare wire. Also tar-impregnated cloth covered wire.
For example, click on the picture in the wiki article to which I linked.
That is NOT bare wire (except at the ends that wrap around the stud in
the center of the ceramic insulator).

I haven't got a clue as to your statement above. K&T was never bare. It is
insulated single conductor, run between insulators, and through ceramic
tubes where penetrating framing members

You haven't restored really old houses or looked in some old barns where
the mice ate away the cloth-tar coating. However, it was YOU that said
"run exposed". ALL wire is "exposed" whether insulated or not. Even
Romex is "exposed" wherever you run it. So presumably you meant
something else by "exposed", like bare wire. YOU said "exposed". I
pointed out that K&T isn't exposed (bare wire) - except if something
caused damage (mice, overheated wiring, etc.).

Um, since K&T started out with cloth covered asphalt for insulation,
just how long do you think the solvents in asphalt last? Asphalt does
dry out over time and why it cracks.

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
VanguardLH wrote:

RBM wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
bud-- wrote:

Old wires are probably rubber insulated. I never heard of tar
(except
the very early Edison DC days). The biggest problem with old rubber
insulation is behind an old ceiling light where the insulation got
too
hot. But that can also make plastic insulation very brittle.

Tar was a denotative description. It might've been rubber at one
time
but over decades it dried out and deteriorated into what is probably
best described as looking like old dried out tar. Also, for even
older
homes, fabric alone was used for insulation. Scary. To make the
cloth
not slide on the wire, some tar-like sticky goo was used to affix it
to
the wire. It wasn't rubber. It was asphalt (hence tar).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

Even if you were lucky in getting the old tar-laden cloth-covered
wiring
routed through rigid conduit, that didn't help in restringing new
wires.
As you pulled the old wire out of the conduit, it would fill up and
get
plugged with all the crumbling cloth and asphalt that came off the
wire.

Two things, If the op indeed had a conduit, he would also have a
ground

Availability doesn't dictate hookup. If there is conduit (which the OP
hasn't mentioned but then he probably hasn't checked yet), and if it is
truly sufficiently grounded, a ground might be available but after
running a pigtail from the outlet to the metal box. However, if the OP
is stuck with the tar-impregnated cloth-covered wiring, just trying to
pull the outlet out of the box will result in crumbling the insulation
so it will be difficult to add the pigtail without replacing the other
wiring, too.

Oh, and before you say that the metal bracket on the outlet would
connect to the metal box to provide the connect to the ground lug in the
socket, I have seen plenty of installations where the home user mounted
the outlet bracket outside the plaster or sheetrock wall and even had a
fiber washer between the screw head and metal bracket so there was no
ground (besides, you're not supposed to use the screw from the bracket
to the threaded hole in the metal box for grounding). Because of wall
damage or bracket bending, I've seen users that inserted wads of paper
behind the bracket to level it out or bring it forward so they could
mount the faceplate. I've also seen metal conduit run up to a plastic
box (that the home owner used by punching a hole in sheetrock next to a
2x4 stud to nail in at an angle). Pretty hard to get a ground on just
the metal collar holding the conduit to the plastic box without the
conduit wandering away from the box and you can't get it back to
rethread the collar.

If the conduit or Greenfield is a remnant and doesn't actually go to a
ground, like it hits Romex or some other Frankenstein job, then you
don't get a ground just because it's metal at one end. Conduit and
Greenfield don't guarantee a ground path but chances are good and it's
much more likely than if you saw K&T strung around. Rather than rely on
a continuity test, you probably should actually visually inspect just
how the conduit or Greenfield are grounded.

I merely stated that if he had conduit feeding the box, he would have a
ground. I said nothing about how that equipment ground would connect to a
grounding receptacle, however the two standard NEC recognized methods are
by
using a grounding conductor screwed or clipped to the metal box, or self
grounding receptacle. Yes, the screws that connect the receptacle to the
box
are the grounding path on this type of outlet. Secondly , you show that
you
are a complete nube in stating that the wire would crumble by removing
the
outlet, in fact, despite the age of this type conductor , unless it has
been
subject to heat, typically from light fixtures, it has often remained as
supple as the day it was installed. Many later type conductors with
rubber
coverings, on the other hand have not faired so well. I might also
suggest
that you try researching your information somewhere other than wikopedia,
an
often poor source for factual information

Don't have to research. Help restore 2 very old houses and K&t was in
one and Franken-job in the other with mix of conduit and greenfield (but
conduit has the old cloth-tar covered wire - and it did crumble). Don't
need to guess. Don't need to Google. Been there, done that.


My apologies, you've actually encountered K&T twice. You really are the
voice of experience (lol)

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:

VanguardLH wrote ...

RBM wrote:

and second, Knob and tube was run exposed on knob insulators and
through short ceramic tubes

Nope, not always bare wire. Also tar-impregnated cloth covered wire.
For example, click on the picture in the wiki article to which I linked.
That is NOT bare wire (except at the ends that wrap around the stud in
the center of the ceramic insulator).

I haven't got a clue as to your statement above. K&T was never bare. It
is
insulated single conductor, run between insulators, and through ceramic
tubes where penetrating framing members

You haven't restored really old houses or looked in some old barns where
the mice ate away the cloth-tar coating. However, it was YOU that said
"run exposed". ALL wire is "exposed" whether insulated or not. Even
Romex is "exposed" wherever you run it. So presumably you meant
something else by "exposed", like bare wire. YOU said "exposed". I
pointed out that K&T isn't exposed (bare wire) - except if something
caused damage (mice, overheated wiring, etc.).

Um, since K&T started out with cloth covered asphalt for insulation,
just how long do you think the solvents in asphalt last? Asphalt does
dry out over time and why it cracks.

You, who knows all about old wiring because you helped in two renovations,
also know what I have and haven't done, why you must be a mystic, but let me
clarify your crystal ball.

I'm a licensed master electrician. I've been doing electrical wiring and old
house renovation for 37 years. Terms like exposed, do not mean bare, they
mean exposed, or subject to mechanical damage. At the very least, if you
want to pretend that you know something about the subject, get yourself
access to an NEC code book. Here is a nice picture of an old k&T fuse box
from one of my renovations:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...seboxlocat.jpg

And here is a picture of the snake that lived in the electric panel in the
barn and ate the mice, that ate the insulation :
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...napanel1-1.jpg

RBM wrote:

"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:

VanguardLH wrote ...

RBM wrote:

and second, Knob and tube was run exposed on knob insulators and
through short ceramic tubes

Nope, not always bare wire. Also tar-impregnated cloth covered wire.
For example, click on the picture in the wiki article to which I linked.
That is NOT bare wire (except at the ends that wrap around the stud in
the center of the ceramic insulator).

I haven't got a clue as to your statement above. K&T was never bare. It
is
insulated single conductor, run between insulators, and through ceramic
tubes where penetrating framing members

You haven't restored really old houses or looked in some old barns where
the mice ate away the cloth-tar coating. However, it was YOU that said
"run exposed". ALL wire is "exposed" whether insulated or not. Even
Romex is "exposed" wherever you run it. So presumably you meant
something else by "exposed", like bare wire. YOU said "exposed". I
pointed out that K&T isn't exposed (bare wire) - except if something
caused damage (mice, overheated wiring, etc.).

Um, since K&T started out with cloth covered asphalt for insulation,
just how long do you think the solvents in asphalt last? Asphalt does
dry out over time and why it cracks.

You, who knows all about old wiring because you helped in two renovations,
also know what I have and haven't done, why you must be a mystic, but let me
clarify your crystal ball.

Hopefully you just do the electrical work and are employed by a
contractor who does the actual interfacing with the customer.

I'm a licensed master electrician. I've been doing electrical wiring and old
house renovation for 37 years. Terms like exposed, do not mean bare, they
mean exposed, or subject to mechanical damage. At the very least, if you
want to pretend that you know something about the subject, get yourself
access to an NEC code book. Here is a nice picture of an old k&T fuse box
from one of my renovations:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...seboxlocat.jpg

And here is a picture of the snake that lived in the electric panel in the
barn and ate the mice, that ate the insulation :
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...napanel1-1.jpg

Wow, must've been a really bad day for you. You're obviously in a
pique. This is NOT a electrician's newsgroup. In my experience,
"exposed" regarding wiring and how used by friends, family, coworkers,
and even now-deceased dad who was a licensed electrician, plumber, HVAC,
and another 3 that I don't recall now meant bare wire or open to the
weather. Guess in your specific realm is has a tighter or different
definition.

I described what I saw. That's all you can do, too. Yes, you have had
more experience specifically with electrical wiring. That doesn't
disqualify what I saw: cloth-wrapped, asphalt-covered wiring with both
K&T and inside conduit - and in both cases the insulation was crumbling.
I only mentioned 2 such cases because that's the only 2 where I ran into
this crap. I wasn't going to go off touting what other restorations in
which I had participated that had nothing to do with those 2 cases
regarding this type of crappy insulation. I wasn't really focused on
the K&T, conduit, or anything other than mentioning to be wary of
handling the wiring if it has this ancient dried out tar-like covering
that crumbles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

My attic looks exactly like that! Some parts of the basement too!

Chris