Which board is better?

I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

I've looked at the differences, but don't really understand why 2oz of
extra copper in the MB is any better.
It is said that the extra copper makes the board run cooler. But the DS4
has extra cooling on the board with its heatpipe setup over the
Northbridge, etc.

The major difference I see is the DS4 has 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports.

Which do you think is a "better" board? Which one is newer?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Gorby

The "UD" boards (ultra durable) have heavier copper (the traces are
thicker). Cracked traces are a source of motherboard failure. Thicker
traces are less likely to crack. Also, UD motherboards have solid
capacitors, while the "plain" motherboards have electrolytics.
Electrolytic capacitors have a limited life, although if they are "good"
electrolytics, that limited life can still be a couple (or more) decades
(on the other hand, some "crappy" electrolytics have been known to fail
within a year).

You may also find differences in some or all of the associated support
chips (sound, network, storage, etc.).


Gorby wrote:
I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

I've looked at the differences, but don't really understand why 2oz of
extra copper in the MB is any better.
It is said that the extra copper makes the board run cooler. But the DS4
has extra cooling on the board with its heatpipe setup over the
Northbridge, etc.

The major difference I see is the DS4 has 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports.

Which do you think is a "better" board? Which one is newer?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Gorby

Gorby wrote:
I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

I've looked at the differences, but don't really understand why 2oz of
extra copper in the MB is any better.
It is said that the extra copper makes the board run cooler. But the DS4
has extra cooling on the board with its heatpipe setup over the
Northbridge, etc.

The major difference I see is the DS4 has 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports.

Which do you think is a "better" board? Which one is newer?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Gorby

I recommend downloading the user manual for each motherboard from the
Gigabyte site. One page of the manual contains an architecture diagram,
and anything they're ashamed of, will be admitted in the footnotes of
that page. For example, on some motherboards, the PCI Express x1 slots
and an x4 slot, share the same lane bandwidth. If you were to use the x4
slot, the x1 slots stop working. It is for issues like that, that you
should be reading the user manual and doing your comparison.

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

As for finding motherboards with DDR2, there are still some out
there. I would never think of looking in local computer stores,
for "unique" motherboards. Local stores have limited stock.
But if you shop online, you can still find older stock.

Paul

Paul wrote:

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

It might also help when using an infamous Intel heatsink/fan
combination?

On 22/02/2010 12:07 PM, Paul wrote:
Gorby wrote:
I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

I've looked at the differences, but don't really understand why 2oz of
extra copper in the MB is any better.
It is said that the extra copper makes the board run cooler. But the
DS4 has extra cooling on the board with its heatpipe setup over the
Northbridge, etc.

The major difference I see is the DS4 has 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports.

Which do you think is a "better" board? Which one is newer?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Gorby

I recommend downloading the user manual for each motherboard from the
Gigabyte site. One page of the manual contains an architecture diagram,
and anything they're ashamed of, will be admitted in the footnotes of
that page. For example, on some motherboards, the PCI Express x1 slots
and an x4 slot, share the same lane bandwidth. If you were to use the x4
slot, the x1 slots stop working. It is for issues like that, that you
should be reading the user manual and doing your comparison.

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

As for finding motherboards with DDR2, there are still some out
there. I would never think of looking in local computer stores,
for "unique" motherboards. Local stores have limited stock.
But if you shop online, you can still find older stock.

Paul
Thanks for that! It seems that the DS4 has "Ultra Durable2" while the
UD3 has "Ultra Durable3" (which has the extra copper).

There seem to be no bad footnotes in either manuals.

The DS4 does have 2 ethernet ports and RAID in the ICH10 chipset, while
the UD3 has 1 ethernet port and only RAID in the Jmicron chipset.

My case has heaps of air blowing into it, so the standard heat pipe
setup of the DS4 should be better than the extra copper of the UD3.

It seems to me there is very little difference between the two. I had
looked for vendors online, but they would come back to me and say that
the board I had tried to purchase was no longer available at the
distributors. So I have been left with finding a store (Local or online)
that says they have a board, then phoning, to see if they really do have it.

So... I'm going to buy the first one that is available. Either of them,
it appears it doesn't matter.

Cheers
Gordy

Gorby wrote:
On 22/02/2010 12:07 PM, Paul wrote:
Gorby wrote:
I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

I've looked at the differences, but don't really understand why 2oz of
extra copper in the MB is any better.
It is said that the extra copper makes the board run cooler. But the
DS4 has extra cooling on the board with its heatpipe setup over the
Northbridge, etc.

The major difference I see is the DS4 has 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports.

Which do you think is a "better" board? Which one is newer?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Gorby

I recommend downloading the user manual for each motherboard from the
Gigabyte site. One page of the manual contains an architecture diagram,
and anything they're ashamed of, will be admitted in the footnotes of
that page. For example, on some motherboards, the PCI Express x1 slots
and an x4 slot, share the same lane bandwidth. If you were to use the x4
slot, the x1 slots stop working. It is for issues like that, that you
should be reading the user manual and doing your comparison.

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

As for finding motherboards with DDR2, there are still some out
there. I would never think of looking in local computer stores,
for "unique" motherboards. Local stores have limited stock.
But if you shop online, you can still find older stock.

Paul
Thanks for that! It seems that the DS4 has "Ultra Durable2" while the
UD3 has "Ultra Durable3" (which has the extra copper).

There seem to be no bad footnotes in either manuals.

The DS4 does have 2 ethernet ports and RAID in the ICH10 chipset, while
the UD3 has 1 ethernet port and only RAID in the Jmicron chipset.

My case has heaps of air blowing into it, so the standard heat pipe
setup of the DS4 should be better than the extra copper of the UD3.

It seems to me there is very little difference between the two. I had
looked for vendors online, but they would come back to me and say that
the board I had tried to purchase was no longer available at the
distributors. So I have been left with finding a store (Local or online)
that says they have a board, then phoning, to see if they really do have
it.

So... I'm going to buy the first one that is available. Either of them,
it appears it doesn't matter.

Cheers
Gordy

ftp://download.gigabyte.ru/manual/mb...ep45-ud3_e.pdf

ftp://download.gigabyte.ru/manual/mo...5-ds4(p)_e.pdf

On page 8 of the EP45-DS4 manual, is the block diagram. The board has
a PCI Express slot wired with x4 lanes. If you plug an x4 card into the
slot with the x4 lanes, the lane switches shown, will disconnect the
three PCI Express x1 slots. So the EP45-DS4 does have a "trick". At least
one person discovered this while using the board.

The EP45-DS4 has two slots suitable for video cards. Using external
lane steering logic, it can run two slots with x8 wiring on each. The
EP45-UD3 has only one video card slot, running at x16. In fact, if
Gigabyte wanted, they wouldn't even need to install a P45 Northbridge
for that board - as the functionality they need to build the board that
way, is met by the P43. There are no compromises in the lane wiring, and
all three of the PCI Express x1 slots will be fully operational at
all times on the UD3.

It really boils down to what kind of cards you have available
to you, to insert into the slots. For example, I have a PCI sound
card that I move from system to system. I have a WinTV card which is
PCI. I have a Promise Ultra133 card I use occasionally (when I'm playing
with a lot of IDE drives). The system with three PCI slots might aid
the reuse of my cards.

One board has a parallel port, the other does not.

I count having one GbE LAN port, as a good start. Two GbE LAN ports
would allow Internet Connection Sharing (ICS), which may be a minor
benefit if you don't have a GbE Switch or Router, and wish to share
files at GbE rates between two machines. I've done a setup like this
before. Windows has ICS built in.

GbE (ICS) GbE
Internet ----------- New_computer ------------ Other_computer

The motherboard with two LAN ports also supports "Teaming", but I don't
know if in the real world, there is a lot of situations that will come
into play. This thread discusses how it works.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r233...aming-Question

I'd have to pick the UD3, simply because it allows me to use my older
cards. The DS4 might help solve problems, like adding high bandwidth
PCI Express functions at a future date. So if you were planning on
getting an expensive hardware RAID card with PCI Express edge connector,
then the DS4 might be better for that. I don't view Crossfire to be
a good enough reason to buy a motherboard with two video card class
slots.

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/...d3_1.1_big.jpg

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/...45-ds4_big.jpg

On the DS4, instead of putting the three black PCI Express x1 slots,
they could have put a couple PCI slots instead. At least that
would have solved my particular wants a bit better. By doing that,
then there wouldn't be any interaction with the usage of the x4
PCI Express slot.

Paul

Gorby wrote:

I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

Why? Is there something wrong with the board you have now?

"Even if the copper is aiding in the transport of some heat, it
eventually has to be transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it."

I do not believe that heat is, at all or in any way, part of the
thicker/thinner copper issue; I believe that the resistance of the
copper is low enough that even in the boards with thinner copper, no
significant level of heat is generated in the copper to begin with.

HOWEVER, thicker copper would have less resistance. The significance of
that is that is not necessarily so much that the heat would be better
dissipated, but rather that the heat would never be generated in the
first place (or, more correctly, that less heat would be generated).


Paul wrote:
Gorby wrote:
I have an P35C-DS3R with an C2D Q9650 with 4x1 Gig Corsair DDR2 RAM.

I have been looking at getting either an EP45-DS4 or EP45-UD3
motherboard. These are the only available at the local stores as most
MBs are now DDR3.

I've looked at the differences, but don't really understand why 2oz of
extra copper in the MB is any better.
It is said that the extra copper makes the board run cooler. But the
DS4 has extra cooling on the board with its heatpipe setup over the
Northbridge, etc.

The major difference I see is the DS4 has 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports.

Which do you think is a "better" board? Which one is newer?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Gorby

I recommend downloading the user manual for each motherboard from the
Gigabyte site. One page of the manual contains an architecture diagram,
and anything they're ashamed of, will be admitted in the footnotes of
that page. For example, on some motherboards, the PCI Express x1 slots
and an x4 slot, share the same lane bandwidth. If you were to use the x4
slot, the x1 slots stop working. It is for issues like that, that you
should be reading the user manual and doing your comparison.

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

As for finding motherboards with DDR2, there are still some out
there. I would never think of looking in local computer stores,
for "unique" motherboards. Local stores have limited stock.
But if you shop online, you can still find older stock.

Paul

The Intel heatsinks and fans are actually pretty good, if you are not
overclocking.

John Doe wrote:
Paul wrote:

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

It might also help when using an infamous Intel heatsink/fan
combination?

Barry Watzman WatzmanNOSPAM neo.rr.com wrote:

The Intel heatsinks and fans are actually pretty good, if you
are not overclocking.

Have you ever used one with a quad core CPU? Strangely, the stock
Intel heatsink that came with my quad core Q9550 is smaller than
the heatsink that came with my dual core E6850. But what I was
talking about is that because Intel heatsink/fan combinations have
no backplate, they bend/warp an ordinary motherboard.
--


















John Doe wrote:
Paul nospam needed.com wrote:

As for a definition of half ounce or 2 oz copper, you can see a table
here. Not all copper conductive layers in the PCB, will be the same
thickness. Thicker copper helps with power transmission (in the power
distribution layer). Thinner copper may help with track density and
impedance control, in signal layers. Even if the copper is aiding
in the transport of some heat, it eventually has to be
transferred into the air stream, to get rid of it.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Practic...ics/PCB_Layout

It might also help when using an infamous Intel heatsink/fan
combination?



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From: Barry Watzman WatzmanNOSPAM neo.rr.com
Newsgroups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.gigabyte
Subject: Which board is better?
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:05:33 -0500
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