Faulty fans: dust or bearings?

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:11:12 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:44:59 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


Replace the heatsink/fan, and a new northbridge fan or new northbridge
heatsink. For the lowest cost you could instead just replace the CPU
heatsink fan instead of the whole heatsink, though you couldn't use a
very low RPM fan on it, it would still be non-silent. If it doesn't
need be really quiet you might measure the fan and buy a similar sized
fan with only ~ 3600 RPM.


Without wishing to sound stupid... wouldn't a 3600 fan blow less air? Making
it less good at cooling?

There are no stupid questions.. the only thing stupid would be NOT
asking when you have a need to know.

It's true, a fan of same dimensions (including thickness) will have a
lower airflow if a 3600 RPM fan. However, beyond a certain airflow
rate there is diminishing return for each additional RPM... axial fans
are very poor at creating pressure to force air through the 'sink,
beyond a pressure level they can sustain, their noise & turbulence
increases far more than the airflow. Even 3600RPM isn't needed on a
good heatsink, but 3600RPM is likely needed for a 'sink designed to
use a smaller higher-RPM fan. In other words, by using a heatsink
marketed as high-performance, something an overclocker might use,
you're getting a hunk of metal with better performance, so the fan
doesn't need to more as much air, and with a larger fan, the RPM
needed for same airflow can be lower.

This, and your desire for a faster CPU, is why I suggested a
replacement heatsink in the first place, not just the fan, mentioning
a fan as the low-cost option. If it were as effective an option as
(replacing the entire heatsink with a version using an 80x25mm fan) I
would not even mention the significantly higher-cost option of
replacing the entire heatsink. Even so, a 25mm thick 3600 RPM fan may
be enough airflow... it depends a lot on the heatsink under it. I
don't have your heatsink so I can't test it's effectiveness at any
given CFM airflow.


The northbridge fan it right jammed up against some bobbly bits
(capacitors?) :-(

If it's the same as that picture I linked previously, that's a pretty
standard size for a northbridge heatsink, almost any replacement
should fit.

I 'd like to get a new heatsink copper one as well as a new fan, but I'm not
sure how to put one on... *shame*
Hell if I'm doing that, and there is a BIOS upgrade available, I may as well
get another CPU too!

Yes, if you're thinking of upgrading the CPU anyway that would be a
good time to do it. The BIOS upgrade should be done before swapping
the CPUs, make sure the system is still running correctly after the
BIOS update before changing the CPU.

The important part of putting on the heatsink is to be able to see
what you're doing and take your time. Given your apprehension, and
the location/orientation of the CPU socket, it might be best to remove
the motherboard from the case, or if the case's motherboard tray is
removable, just remove the whole tray with the motherboard still
mounted on it.

Putting the heatsink on is pretty straightforward, the reverse of
taking one off. Remove the old thermal interface material between the
CPU and heatsink (might require a petroleum-based solvent like
"Goo-Gone" or WD-40, etc, if it's a hard gummy substance rather than a
greaselike compound that can be wiped off). Before installing the new
heatsink apply a fresh, paper-thin coating of thermal compound on the
core (raised center only) of the CPU.

Attach the side of the clip to the bottom of the socket first (on your
particular motherboard) with the heatsink oriented so the raised area
on the bottom corresponds to the raised area on the socket.

If you mount the heatsink backwards it's possible it wouldn't even be
in contact with most of the CPU, so be sure it's not mounted in 180'
reverse direction. On your motherboard that means the side of the
clip that has a tab for hand-pressure or a slot for the screwdriver,
should normally be mounted facing up, towards the power supply.

Try to keep the heatsink bottom as parallel to the CPU as possible,
not letting it put too much stress on a corner of the CPU.

There are more detailed instructions on installing heatsinks available
on the 'net, though I don't remember where, which are best... a Google
search should find enough information, but it's a pretty
straightforward process.


Dave

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:11:12 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


[snip good advice.]


I have saved your post for future reference. You're a very handy person, you
know!

I shall go looking for UK overclocking sites...

Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?
--
Susan

kony wrote:

It's true, a fan of same dimensions (including thickness) will have a
lower airflow if a 3600 RPM fan. However, beyond a certain airflow
rate there is diminishing return for each additional RPM...axial fans
are very poor at creating pressure to force air through the 'sink,
beyond a pressure level they can sustain, their noise & turbulence
increases far more than the airflow. Even 3600RPM isn't needed on a
good heatsink, but 3600RPM is likely needed for a 'sink designed to
use a smaller higher-RPM fan. In other words, by using a heatsink
marketed as high-performance, something an overclocker might use,
you're getting a hunk of metal with better performance, so the fan
doesn't need to more as much air, and with a larger fan, the RPM
needed for same airflow can be lower.

This would tend to be 180 degrees opposed to your criticism of the new
PCP&C low profile P4 coolers, no? They rely more on a "hunk of metal
with better performance" and less on fan CFM.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:48:16 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?

Sure, just post a link to it if applicable.


Dave

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:13:03 -0700, ric wrote:

kony wrote:

It's true, a fan of same dimensions (including thickness) will have a
lower airflow if a 3600 RPM fan. However, beyond a certain airflow
rate there is diminishing return for each additional RPM...axial fans
are very poor at creating pressure to force air through the 'sink,
beyond a pressure level they can sustain, their noise & turbulence
increases far more than the airflow. Even 3600RPM isn't needed on a
good heatsink, but 3600RPM is likely needed for a 'sink designed to
use a smaller higher-RPM fan. In other words, by using a heatsink
marketed as high-performance, something an overclocker might use,
you're getting a hunk of metal with better performance, so the fan
doesn't need to more as much air, and with a larger fan, the RPM
needed for same airflow can be lower.

This would tend to be 180 degrees opposed to your criticism of the new
PCP&C low profile P4 coolers, no? They rely more on a "hunk of metal
with better performance" and less on fan CFM.

Not necessarily, their "hunk of metal" has the top half cut off
(compared to a hypothetical, full-sized desktop 'sink) to fit in a 1U
case, which is necessary for 1U, but sub-optimal for desktop use,
reduces the efficiency.

Also their fan is low-CFM, but for the opposite reason, because it's
small and thin, is going to be louder than same CFM from a larger fan,
and even if it's a good fan, those 10mm thick fans seem to be harder
on their bearings than a 15mm or thicker fan. I've noticed these thin
fans' bearings do get significantly louder over time. Likely it's
because it takes a 15mm thickness to fit two good-sized bearings, I'll
assume their fan only has one.

It is the worst of both worlds in a desktop, but necessary due to
height restrictions for the intended platform, as are all 1U 'sinks.
It's not a knock against PC Power & Cooling's version of a 1U 'sink,
only that a 1U 'sink isn't the best choice in a bigger chassis.


Dave

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:48:16 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?

Sure, just post a link to it if applicable.


There's so many :-( What spec should I be looking at? I'm going to get an
Athlon XP2700 to replace my 2000 (BIOS permitting - forgot to check).
The best I've seen seem to be around 30 GBP (or 50 USD for all you
Merrycans) for heatsink and fan. Is that about right for one that you
describe?
--
Susan

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:06:37 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:48:16 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?

Sure, just post a link to it if applicable.


There's so many :-( What spec should I be looking at? I'm going to get an
Athlon XP2700 to replace my 2000 (BIOS permitting - forgot to check).
The best I've seen seem to be around 30 GBP (or 50 USD for all you
Merrycans) for heatsink and fan. Is that about right for one that you
describe?

Not knowing the market there I wouldn't know a good price in pounds if
I saw it.... 50 USD would buy something unnecessarily extravagant here
unless it was full retail pricing.

Get something with at least a large copper plate on the bottom (not
just a small copper insert), or all-copper, that takes an 80mm fan.
Often, if these coolers come with a fan it's louder than necessary,
geared towards overclocking, even excessive for many overclockers, so
the original fan (if one is included) can have it's RPM reduced by a
fan-speed controller or various modifications, or just buy the
preferred fan separate. Resist the urge to buy a cheap no-name
sleeve-bearing fan. Better fan makes include Nidec, Vantec, Papst,
Panaflo, NMB, Delta & Sunon (these last two in their dual-ball-bearing
models only), and others.

By using a higher-quality cooler with 80mm (25mm thick) fan you should
have adequate cooling with RPM of 1600-2500RPM... towards the higher
end for a case with lesser airflow and/or you want to overclock, or
the lower end if you're certain it's always getting good airflow in a
mild climate (like air-conditioned room).

As an example,

For ~$40 USD:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thslsoco.html

Plus either of these fan:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/pan80.html
http://www.svcompucycle.com/vantec.html

For ~$25
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thsibo.html

For an entire line of heatsinks to consider, you might look at
Thermalright... anything large enough to take an 80mm fan should be
enough for an XP2700. I think their lowest-end models that meet this
standard are the AX-7 and SK-7, then there's the SLK-700, SLK-800,
900, 900U, 900A, etc, etc.


Dave

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:06:37 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:48:16 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back (from another pc!) if I get into
trouble! If I find what might be suitable, OK if I ask you to check?

Sure, just post a link to it if applicable.


There's so many :-( What spec should I be looking at? I'm going to get
an
Athlon XP2700 to replace my 2000 (BIOS permitting - forgot to check).
The best I've seen seem to be around 30 GBP (or 50 USD for all you
Merrycans) for heatsink and fan. Is that about right for one that you
describe?

Not knowing the market there I wouldn't know a good price in pounds if
I saw it.... 50 USD would buy something unnecessarily extravagant here
unless it was full retail pricing.

Get something with at least a large copper plate on the bottom (not
just a small copper insert), or all-copper, that takes an 80mm fan.
Often, if these coolers come with a fan it's louder than necessary,
geared towards overclocking, even excessive for many overclockers, so
the original fan (if one is included) can have it's RPM reduced by a
fan-speed controller or various modifications, or just buy the
preferred fan separate. Resist the urge to buy a cheap no-name
sleeve-bearing fan. Better fan makes include Nidec, Vantec, Papst,
Panaflo, NMB, Delta & Sunon (these last two in their dual-ball-bearing
models only), and others.

By using a higher-quality cooler with 80mm (25mm thick) fan you should
have adequate cooling with RPM of 1600-2500RPM... towards the higher
end for a case with lesser airflow and/or you want to overclock, or
the lower end if you're certain it's always getting good airflow in a
mild climate (like air-conditioned room).

As an example,

For ~$40 USD:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thslsoco.html




Plus either of these fan:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/pan80.html
http://www.svcompucycle.com/vantec.html

For ~$25
http://www.svcompucycle.com/thsibo.html

For an entire line of heatsinks to consider, you might look at
Thermalright... anything large enough to take an 80mm fan should be
enough for an XP2700. I think their lowest-end models that meet this
standard are the AX-7 and SK-7, then there's the SLK-700, SLK-800,
900, 900U, 900A, etc, etc.



What about this one?
http://www.svcompucycle.com/zaulqucpuco.html

I'm most concerned that the 'drive in' store, PC World (www.pcworld.co.uk)
doesn't have much, and if I buy on-line I might get it wrong and be unable
to send it back...
--
Susan

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:44:41 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


What about this one?
http://www.svcompucycle.com/zaulqucpuco.html

That should work too, but my two primary concerns about it a

1) Non-standard fan, hard if not impossible to replace if it fails or
you wanted a different fan.

2) It's large diameter might prevent it from working on your
motherboard due to it's CPU socket location. I would expect that
cooler will extend above the top of your board, toward the power
supply. Also those capacitors on your board to the left of the socket
might be too tall... there is a diagram at that link you gave, could
be used to measure your board and distance to the power supply.


I'm most concerned that the 'drive in' store, PC World (www.pcworld.co.uk)
doesn't have much, and if I buy on-line I might get it wrong and be unable
to send it back...

I just followed that pcworld link and didn't see anything particularly
good, but I'm not familiar with all those brands' models either and
their pictures leave a lot to be desired.


Dave

"S.Boardman" wrote in message
...
OK, I've just been to PCWorld today, and it's a pile of sh!te in there.
How about this place, with another Zalman product?

http://www.quietpc.com/uk/cpucool2.php

It's at the bottom of the page, Zalman CNPS6000-cu
I know the fan is non standard. Ever tried it ? *grin*

They also do a northbridge cooler
http://www.quietpc.com/uk/vgamb.php#mb
Will this be too big? Hang on...
The chipset fan at the moment measures 45mm. As I have just measured it, I
can also tell you that my cpu current hs/fan (measuring 60mm) is 20mm away
from the psu, and the mboard is about 10mm away.

Another site for you to look at is www.dabs.com They have lots to choose
from but not Zalman ones?

Please just find me one, preferably in one of these two sites. I have to
go
to Paris on very soon, and I'd love to have it done before I go. I've
checked the BIOS update and it will currently support 3000+ when flashed.
However, I don't want to attempt to update it until I have the fan
changed!
Please could you have a look at the sites?

Thanks - it's doing my head in!
--


Ok forget the Zalman 6000 one above, just checked the diagram and it won't
fit. What about the one above it on the same page? Nexus KCZ-2700LS Nickel
Plated AMD Cooler? It covers up to XP2800+, although I'd be happier if it
did 3000+.
Thanks, as usual.
--
Susan