K8NSpro PWR_Fan connector

Apologies for another fan connector question, but on this mbd there is a
SYS_FAN connector (3-pole, #3 is sensing) and a PWR_FAN connector (located
just above the IDE connectors and next to the ATX power connector) which has
a 3-pole connector of which the #3 is NC, according to the manual, evidently
meaning that the board cannot sense the fan speed when connected to this
jack. However, both connectors are described as 'allows you to link with
the cooling fan on the system case to lower the system temperature.' As if
that wouldn't be obvious in any case.

The question is, why is this connector (the PWR_FAN one) provided at all, if
there is no speed regulation, as it is hard to see how it could be
temperature regulated if there is no speed feedback from the fan, or am I
missing something here?

My Antec Sonata case has a non-sensing case fan with a connector to insert
into the +12v of the hd drive connectors, so there'd be no controlling
intended there. OTOH, there's a 3-pole connector from the Antec psu
apparently intended for *some* fan connector, but it only has a gnd and a
sensing lead, and so suggests its purpose is to monitor the psu fans with
software. I understood that the psu has an internal sensor (perhaps load,
not air temp?) (500W Smart Power 2), so I'm not certain about the monitoring
aspect, esp. since there'd be no control by software.

It seems so far that the plan should be to ignore the PWR_FAN connector
(since it would merely power a fan at full speed, and nothing could be
gained by using it with the connector from the psu, since #3 as well as #2
would have no connection on one side or the other), use a 120mm sensing case
fan on the SYS_FAN connector, and then another thermistor-controlled fan to
help cool the hds; such a fan *could* be powered from the PWR_FAN connector,
but there'd be no advantage to it, that I can see.

Anyway, if anyone can improve my understanding of the intended function of
the mbd PWR_FAN connector, or of the apparent sensing circuit from the psu,
I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Joe

jt3 wrote:
Apologies for another fan connector question, but on this mbd there is a
SYS_FAN connector (3-pole, #3 is sensing) and a PWR_FAN connector (located
just above the IDE connectors and next to the ATX power connector) which has
a 3-pole connector of which the #3 is NC, according to the manual, evidently
meaning that the board cannot sense the fan speed when connected to this
jack. However, both connectors are described as 'allows you to link with
the cooling fan on the system case to lower the system temperature.' As if
that wouldn't be obvious in any case.

The question is, why is this connector (the PWR_FAN one) provided at all, if
there is no speed regulation, as it is hard to see how it could be
temperature regulated if there is no speed feedback from the fan, or am I
missing something here?

My Antec Sonata case has a non-sensing case fan with a connector to insert
into the +12v of the hd drive connectors, so there'd be no controlling
intended there. OTOH, there's a 3-pole connector from the Antec psu
apparently intended for *some* fan connector, but it only has a gnd and a
sensing lead, and so suggests its purpose is to monitor the psu fans with
software. I understood that the psu has an internal sensor (perhaps load,
not air temp?) (500W Smart Power 2), so I'm not certain about the monitoring
aspect, esp. since there'd be no control by software.

It seems so far that the plan should be to ignore the PWR_FAN connector
(since it would merely power a fan at full speed, and nothing could be
gained by using it with the connector from the psu, since #3 as well as #2
would have no connection on one side or the other), use a 120mm sensing case
fan on the SYS_FAN connector, and then another thermistor-controlled fan to
help cool the hds; such a fan *could* be powered from the PWR_FAN connector,
but there'd be no advantage to it, that I can see.

Anyway, if anyone can improve my understanding of the intended function of
the mbd PWR_FAN connector, or of the apparent sensing circuit from the psu,
I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Joe



Your board uses an IT8712 Super I/O chip with Hardware Monitor (iteusa.com).
The chip has five fan channels. The pins are multiplexed, meaning there
are more chip functions, than there are pins to support them. Because
your motherboard has a Game Port, for example, that immediately
eliminates two fan channels, leaving three. (Some of the pins on the Game
Port header, can be programmed to control/monitor a fan, but the BIOS will
have disabled their functioning as fan signals, and instead they function
as Game Port signals.)

Fan control can be done a number of different ways, and for different reasons.

Fans are hardly ever speed controlled in the absolute sense. There was
one Japanese product available, whose purpose was to monitor the RPM
signal, and vary the voltage, so that the fan rotated at a constant
speed. That eliminates the annoying up-and-down you get when there are
tiny variations in the 12V from the power supply. Motherboards generally
don't do that. Feedback=RPM, Control=variable_12V in that case. Other
than that special third-party product, RPM is generally only checked to
detect fan failure.

Fans can be adjusted according to temperature. Temperatures to control
include CPU_temperature and Case_temperature. Deluxe motherboards may
seek to control both of those. Lesser motherboards may offer CPU_temperature
control, or no control at all. Thus, a really cheap motherboard, simply
offers a constant 12V on all fan headers.

On top of that, the CPU fan may have a built-in function. The Intel
retail fan, senses case_temperature, via a thermistor in the fan hub.
The Intel intent, is "constant cooling effort". As the computer case air temp
rises, it is harder to cool the CPU (as cooling ability is related to
delta_T). The Intel fan speeds up, if the case gets warm. But since
the Intel fan doesn't know what the CPU temperature is, the CPU temperature
is still not "controlled" in that case. The Intel fan doesn't know what
the CPU temperature is.

Some motherboards offer to control the CPU fan for you. Their intent is to
reduce noise, when the CPU is "cool enough'. Some products crank the fan
speed, once the CPU goes over 50C. The voltage sent to the fan, may vary
between 7V and 12V, and a "depth" setting determines how close to 7V
it gets, when the CPU is below 50C. In that case Feedback=CPU_diode_temp,
Control=variable_12V.

A "Deluxe" motherboard may have a second fan header, with a transistor
connected to 12V, just like on the CPU header. Feedback=Case_temp.
Control=variable_12V. The BIOS routine (or optionally programs like
SpeedFan from almico.com) can implement the control. The threshold in
that case will be a lot lower, so the case fan will speed up at a
relatively low measured value of case air temperature. You can connect
a two wire fan, with no RPM signal, and the BIOS on that motherboard
will still vary the 12V power signal, in response to the measured value
of case_air_temperature. The RPM signal is not needed, and the main
value of an RPM signal is for detecting a "dead fan".

Now, for the neutered headers. It seems in the case of your motherboard,
I only see two RPM signals being used, when it appears that three are
easily available. But they may have needed to use one of the RPM signals
for a GPIO (general purpose I/O) and that is why the third header is not
monitored. Since they did pay the $0.03 for the pins, it wouldn't make
sense not to connect the RPM sense pin on the hardware monitor interface,
if the signal was available.

If a fan header has +12V and GND, but no RPM, the intent is just to provide
a source of power to the connected fan. This saves the user from buying an
adapter cable to a Molex disk drive connector. The three pin header costs
$0.03 or so to populate.

If a header were to have RPM and GND, then the header would be for monitoring
only. A typical situation might be a Power_Fan connector, where the PSU
is already providing its own controlled 12V signal to its internal fan.
The PSU maker takes the RPM signal, and sends it down to the motherboard. The
connector on the end of the cable has three pins, but only the RPM wire and
GND wire. The PSU basically sends the RPM signal, so it can be monitored.
The PSU does not need the 12V from the motherboard, and so that wire is
not installed on the PSU cable by the PSU maker.

I've also owned a power supply, that had a thermistor, so you could monitor
PSU internal temperature instead. That is a two pin connector, with two
wires connected. Nominal resistance 10K ohms, beta=3435 (kinda a defacto
standard for computer thermistors). That practice (PSU with temp readout)
has died out, because it has been a few years since motherboards offered
temp measurement for a user-provided probe. Temperature channels on the
hardware monitor are tied up with CPU_diode_temp, case_temp, and maybe
chipset_temp or VRM_temp.

In summary, for your board:

CPU_FAN GND, +12, Sense ("Smart fan" via CPU_diode_temp)
Sys_FAN GND, +12, Sense (Not controlled, but monitored)
Power_FAN GND, +12, No_Connect (Not controlled, not monitored, a source of power)
NB_Fan GND, "Power" (Likely a 5V fan? I think that is what 2-pins is)

Note that the labeling of fan header, is not an absolute. If you wanted to
connect the connector from your power supply to the Sys_FAN connector,
no one will be the wiser. That would allow it to be monitored, as long as
it has an RPM signal on it (which is should). The Power_FAN header could be
connected to your two wire case fan, since your case fan cannot be monitored
in the first place. But if your motherboard was a "deluxe" type, where the
case_temperature was controlled, then you wouldn't do that, and would
connect the Sys_Fan to the case fan (because in that case, you want the
variable 12V from the Sys_FAN header, to control the case fan, and the
resulting computer case temperature).

HTH,
Paul

Thank you, Paul, for a most informative response; I believe you answered
questions I didn't even realise I had asked, though I clearly did, by
inference. In this respect, I should have realised that a feedback loop and
servo mechanism involving speed sensing would be unlikely in such a
setup--any servo mechanism necessary for temperature control would naturally
be in software and would only involve a temperature sense, not speed.

The original power supply (replaced because of failure) that came in the
Antec Sonata case had a 'Fan Only" connector which would have controlled the
case fan accordingly with the psu temp and fans, but the replacement, of
which I wrote, doesn't have that, so the result has been increased fan
noise.

Although the suggestion you made of using the game port connector to control
the case fan speed is attractive, I suspect that finding a disassembler, and
applying myself to the BIOS code is more of a time investment than I am
likely to make at this point, simply for aesthetic accommodation, and so, if
I am to do anything on it, most probably I should install a
thermistor-controlled case fan. The possible use of the game port *is*
attractive, nevertheless. Somewhere, I have an old copy of Sourcer, but I'm
sure it's 16-bit, and thus not very useful for this, so like so many things
that attract, it will probably be quietly ignored.

On another subject, you wouldn't by any chance know where I might find a
copy of a data sheet for a TFK U 2550 B1 chip, would you? Almost any
information would be a help. Telefunken seems to have gone the way of all
flesh and creation thereof.

Thank you very much for your time and help,
Joe

"Paul" wrote in message ...
jt3 wrote:
Apologies for another fan connector question, but on this mbd there is a
SYS_FAN connector (3-pole, #3 is sensing) and a PWR_FAN connector
(located
just above the IDE connectors and next to the ATX power connector) which
has
a 3-pole connector of which the #3 is NC, according to the manual,
evidently
meaning that the board cannot sense the fan speed when connected to this
jack. However, both connectors are described as 'allows you to link
with
the cooling fan on the system case to lower the system temperature.' As
if
that wouldn't be obvious in any case.

The question is, why is this connector (the PWR_FAN one) provided at
all, if
there is no speed regulation, as it is hard to see how it could be
temperature regulated if there is no speed feedback from the fan, or am
I
missing something here?

My Antec Sonata case has a non-sensing case fan with a connector to
insert
into the +12v of the hd drive connectors, so there'd be no controlling
intended there. OTOH, there's a 3-pole connector from the Antec psu
apparently intended for *some* fan connector, but it only has a gnd and
a
sensing lead, and so suggests its purpose is to monitor the psu fans
with
software. I understood that the psu has an internal sensor (perhaps
load,
not air temp?) (500W Smart Power 2), so I'm not certain about the
monitoring
aspect, esp. since there'd be no control by software.

It seems so far that the plan should be to ignore the PWR_FAN connector
(since it would merely power a fan at full speed, and nothing could be
gained by using it with the connector from the psu, since #3 as well as
#2
would have no connection on one side or the other), use a 120mm sensing
case
fan on the SYS_FAN connector, and then another thermistor-controlled fan
to
help cool the hds; such a fan *could* be powered from the PWR_FAN
connector,
but there'd be no advantage to it, that I can see.

Anyway, if anyone can improve my understanding of the intended function
of
the mbd PWR_FAN connector, or of the apparent sensing circuit from the
psu,
I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Joe



Your board uses an IT8712 Super I/O chip with Hardware Monitor
(iteusa.com).
The chip has five fan channels. The pins are multiplexed, meaning there
are more chip functions, than there are pins to support them. Because
your motherboard has a Game Port, for example, that immediately
eliminates two fan channels, leaving three. (Some of the pins on the Game
Port header, can be programmed to control/monitor a fan, but the BIOS will
have disabled their functioning as fan signals, and instead they function
as Game Port signals.)

Fan control can be done a number of different ways, and for different
reasons.

Fans are hardly ever speed controlled in the absolute sense. There was
one Japanese product available, whose purpose was to monitor the RPM
signal, and vary the voltage, so that the fan rotated at a constant
speed. That eliminates the annoying up-and-down you get when there are
tiny variations in the 12V from the power supply. Motherboards generally
don't do that. Feedback=RPM, Control=variable_12V in that case. Other
than that special third-party product, RPM is generally only checked to
detect fan failure.

Fans can be adjusted according to temperature. Temperatures to control
include CPU_temperature and Case_temperature. Deluxe motherboards may
seek to control both of those. Lesser motherboards may offer
CPU_temperature
control, or no control at all. Thus, a really cheap motherboard, simply
offers a constant 12V on all fan headers.

On top of that, the CPU fan may have a built-in function. The Intel
retail fan, senses case_temperature, via a thermistor in the fan hub.
The Intel intent, is "constant cooling effort". As the computer case air
temp
rises, it is harder to cool the CPU (as cooling ability is related to
delta_T). The Intel fan speeds up, if the case gets warm. But since
the Intel fan doesn't know what the CPU temperature is, the CPU
temperature
is still not "controlled" in that case. The Intel fan doesn't know what
the CPU temperature is.

Some motherboards offer to control the CPU fan for you. Their intent is to
reduce noise, when the CPU is "cool enough'. Some products crank the fan
speed, once the CPU goes over 50C. The voltage sent to the fan, may vary
between 7V and 12V, and a "depth" setting determines how close to 7V
it gets, when the CPU is below 50C. In that case Feedback=CPU_diode_temp,
Control=variable_12V.

A "Deluxe" motherboard may have a second fan header, with a transistor
connected to 12V, just like on the CPU header. Feedback=Case_temp.
Control=variable_12V. The BIOS routine (or optionally programs like
SpeedFan from almico.com) can implement the control. The threshold in
that case will be a lot lower, so the case fan will speed up at a
relatively low measured value of case air temperature. You can connect
a two wire fan, with no RPM signal, and the BIOS on that motherboard
will still vary the 12V power signal, in response to the measured value
of case_air_temperature. The RPM signal is not needed, and the main
value of an RPM signal is for detecting a "dead fan".

Now, for the neutered headers. It seems in the case of your motherboard,
I only see two RPM signals being used, when it appears that three are
easily available. But they may have needed to use one of the RPM signals
for a GPIO (general purpose I/O) and that is why the third header is not
monitored. Since they did pay the $0.03 for the pins, it wouldn't make
sense not to connect the RPM sense pin on the hardware monitor interface,
if the signal was available.

If a fan header has +12V and GND, but no RPM, the intent is just to
provide
a source of power to the connected fan. This saves the user from buying an
adapter cable to a Molex disk drive connector. The three pin header costs
$0.03 or so to populate.

If a header were to have RPM and GND, then the header would be for
monitoring
only. A typical situation might be a Power_Fan connector, where the PSU
is already providing its own controlled 12V signal to its internal fan.
The PSU maker takes the RPM signal, and sends it down to the motherboard.
The
connector on the end of the cable has three pins, but only the RPM wire
and
GND wire. The PSU basically sends the RPM signal, so it can be monitored.
The PSU does not need the 12V from the motherboard, and so that wire is
not installed on the PSU cable by the PSU maker.

I've also owned a power supply, that had a thermistor, so you could
monitor
PSU internal temperature instead. That is a two pin connector, with two
wires connected. Nominal resistance 10K ohms, beta=3435 (kinda a defacto
standard for computer thermistors). That practice (PSU with temp readout)
has died out, because it has been a few years since motherboards offered
temp measurement for a user-provided probe. Temperature channels on the
hardware monitor are tied up with CPU_diode_temp, case_temp, and maybe
chipset_temp or VRM_temp.

In summary, for your board:

CPU_FAN GND, +12, Sense ("Smart fan" via CPU_diode_temp)
Sys_FAN GND, +12, Sense (Not controlled, but monitored)
Power_FAN GND, +12, No_Connect (Not controlled, not monitored, a source
of power)
NB_Fan GND, "Power" (Likely a 5V fan? I think that is what
2-pins is)

Note that the labeling of fan header, is not an absolute. If you wanted to
connect the connector from your power supply to the Sys_FAN connector,
no one will be the wiser. That would allow it to be monitored, as long as
it has an RPM signal on it (which is should). The Power_FAN header could
be
connected to your two wire case fan, since your case fan cannot be
monitored
in the first place. But if your motherboard was a "deluxe" type, where the
case_temperature was controlled, then you wouldn't do that, and would
connect the Sys_Fan to the case fan (because in that case, you want the
variable 12V from the Sys_FAN header, to control the case fan, and the
resulting computer case temperature).

HTH,
Paul

jt3 wrote:
Thank you, Paul, for a most informative response; I believe you answered
questions I didn't even realise I had asked, though I clearly did, by
inference. In this respect, I should have realised that a feedback loop and
servo mechanism involving speed sensing would be unlikely in such a
setup--any servo mechanism necessary for temperature control would naturally
be in software and would only involve a temperature sense, not speed.

The original power supply (replaced because of failure) that came in the
Antec Sonata case had a 'Fan Only" connector which would have controlled the
case fan accordingly with the psu temp and fans, but the replacement, of
which I wrote, doesn't have that, so the result has been increased fan
noise.

Although the suggestion you made of using the game port connector to control
the case fan speed is attractive, I suspect that finding a disassembler, and
applying myself to the BIOS code is more of a time investment than I am
likely to make at this point, simply for aesthetic accommodation, and so, if
I am to do anything on it, most probably I should install a
thermistor-controlled case fan. The possible use of the game port *is*
attractive, nevertheless. Somewhere, I have an old copy of Sourcer, but I'm
sure it's 16-bit, and thus not very useful for this, so like so many things
that attract, it will probably be quietly ignored.

On another subject, you wouldn't by any chance know where I might find a
copy of a data sheet for a TFK U 2550 B1 chip, would you? Almost any
information would be a help. Telefunken seems to have gone the way of all
flesh and creation thereof.

Thank you very much for your time and help,
Joe


You can get an assembly that fits a 5 1/4" drive tray, called a fan
rheobus. Another concept, is a Zalman Fanmate II, which is a single
channel fan adjustment. I have an earlier version of the Fanmate,
and I use it on a couple fans. This one sounds like it isn't
infinitely variable any more, but more like a three position switch.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Custra...82E16835118217

My point about the "Game Port", is if you find a Game Port on the motherboard,
then for all practical purposes, you are limited to three fan channels. I
wasn't proposing you actually interface to the pins :-) You actually need
a little bit of interface circuitry, to convert the 12V pulses from the fan,
to 5V levels for the chip.

This article, suggests the Telefunken name has been "'round the block".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telefunken

I found a reference, to Vishay acquiring part of Temic, who in turn
acquired Telefunken. Atmel may have got part of Temic as well.
And one reference to used parts, suggesting a date code of 1993. Which
means the part could have been around for a while. But I don't see any
sign of a datasheet.

You can see how Temic modified a Telefunken datasheet he
www.prelcoparts.com/datasheets/temic/UAA145.PDF

(Close but no cigar...)
http://www.prelcoparts.com/datasheet...Data%20Sheets/

Paul

Thanks, again, for your time and effort. There are such fans, although most
of them *are* three-speed models now; Antec sells the 'Tri-cool' which is
exactly that. They also sell their 'Smart-Cool' model, which is
thermistor-regulated:

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=75012

CompUSA also used to sell a rebranded Chinese fan (of course, that's what
the Antec is, also) SKU 299936, but they seem to be discontinuing it. I
still see the 80 mm version of the Antec in stores, occasionally. The Antec
looks like a better fan, though I haven't taken one apart yet, I have taken
one of the CompUSA ones apart, and the Antecs *look* better from what I can
see. Don't know if I can find one in any store locally, but I can always
try ordering directly from Antec. Some reluctance there, since I've had two
PSUs of theirs fail on me, but whenever one deals with outfits that contract
out their assemblies as they do, it's a roll of the bones, in a way.

Yes, I noticed some of that same stuff when I was Googling for the chip some
time back. What was enticing, though, was some reference to Chinese firms
that were apparently making versions of the chip for replacement purposes;
no further info, though. And Google referenced that same list (Prelco) of
data sheets, suggesting that it had once listed one for that chip, even
though I couldn't find it then. So, what I was hoping for was that someone
might happen to have kept a copy of it. My interest in it involves a no
longer available locking controller for a car, ca. 1991. No idea at all
whether that chip is the problem, but as it was an important factor in
working out the schematic, I was trying for that. As you may guess, I'm
somewhat ill-advisedly inclined to pursue things more involved than amenable
to simple solutions :-)

Thanks again for your efforts!

Joe

"Paul" wrote in message ...

You can get an assembly that fits a 5 1/4" drive tray, called a fan
rheobus. Another concept, is a Zalman Fanmate II, which is a single
channel fan adjustment. I have an earlier version of the Fanmate,
and I use it on a couple fans. This one sounds like it isn't
infinitely variable any more, but more like a three position switch.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Custra...82E16835118217

My point about the "Game Port", is if you find a Game Port on the
motherboard,
then for all practical purposes, you are limited to three fan channels. I
wasn't proposing you actually interface to the pins :-) You actually need
a little bit of interface circuitry, to convert the 12V pulses from the
fan,
to 5V levels for the chip.

This article, suggests the Telefunken name has been "'round the block".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telefunken

I found a reference, to Vishay acquiring part of Temic, who in turn
acquired Telefunken. Atmel may have got part of Temic as well.
And one reference to used parts, suggesting a date code of 1993. Which
means the part could have been around for a while. But I don't see any
sign of a datasheet.

You can see how Temic modified a Telefunken datasheet he
www.prelcoparts.com/datasheets/temic/UAA145.PDF

(Close but no cigar...)
http://www.prelcoparts.com/datasheet...Data%20Sheets/

Paul

jt3 wrote:
Thanks, again, for your time and effort. There are such fans, although most
of them *are* three-speed models now; Antec sells the 'Tri-cool' which is
exactly that. They also sell their 'Smart-Cool' model, which is
thermistor-regulated:

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=75012

CompUSA also used to sell a rebranded Chinese fan (of course, that's what
the Antec is, also) SKU 299936, but they seem to be discontinuing it. I
still see the 80 mm version of the Antec in stores, occasionally. The Antec
looks like a better fan, though I haven't taken one apart yet, I have taken
one of the CompUSA ones apart, and the Antecs *look* better from what I can
see. Don't know if I can find one in any store locally, but I can always
try ordering directly from Antec. Some reluctance there, since I've had two
PSUs of theirs fail on me, but whenever one deals with outfits that contract
out their assemblies as they do, it's a roll of the bones, in a way.

Yes, I noticed some of that same stuff when I was Googling for the chip some
time back. What was enticing, though, was some reference to Chinese firms
that were apparently making versions of the chip for replacement purposes;
no further info, though. And Google referenced that same list (Prelco) of
data sheets, suggesting that it had once listed one for that chip, even
though I couldn't find it then. So, what I was hoping for was that someone
might happen to have kept a copy of it. My interest in it involves a no
longer available locking controller for a car, ca. 1991. No idea at all
whether that chip is the problem, but as it was an important factor in
working out the schematic, I was trying for that. As you may guess, I'm
somewhat ill-advisedly inclined to pursue things more involved than amenable
to simple solutions :-)

Thanks again for your efforts!

Joe

If you still have the link returned by Google, you can check
the web.archive.org site. I already checked for telefunken.de
and didn't get anything of value. The web.archive.org site
adds a "fourth dimension" to the web.

http://web.archive.org/*/http://www....com/datasheets

It is possible that "Telefunken automotive" ended up here. This
web site is a dead loss, in terms of information content.

http://www.conti-online.com/generato...cation_en.html

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message ...
snip
If you still have the link returned by Google, you can check
the web.archive.org site. I already checked for telefunken.de
and didn't get anything of value. The web.archive.org site
adds a "fourth dimension" to the web.

http://web.archive.org/*/http://www....com/datasheets

It is possible that "Telefunken automotive" ended up here. This
web site is a dead loss, in terms of information content.


http://www.conti-online.com/generato...cation_en.html

Paul

Thanks for the web.archive.org link; I shall find that useful in the future.
Unfortunately, I didn't keep the prelcoparts Google link, so only slogging
will tell.

I see what you mean about the second one. I had wondered what happened to
Alfred Teves GmbH (ATE) and now I see. A collection of industrial merger
leftovers, it seems, and pretty much just pr, no info. Too bad, but all too
common.

Thanks again,
Joe

Thought you might be interested--empirically it turns out that the board
does *not* report the temp for the chipset; instead, it's CPU, SYS-FAN, and,
get this, PWR_FAN, this in spite of explicitly indicating in the manual that
PWR_FAN has NC on the sense line. So much for the logical inference, to say
nothing of documentation!

Currently running Prime95 trying to discover why machine arbitrarily shuts
down, no error in system logfile. Original Antec 380W psu in the Sonata
case suspected, tried new Antec 500W SmartPower; powered up, shut down 10
seconds after completely booted and running, and wouldn't restart. Returned
to the 380, couldn't get it to shut down again, put 500 in, works fine,
apparently. Thus further checks. Passed nearly a week of Memtest86
earlier. This was a mbd that wouldn't run reliably from the word go, out of
the box. Finally after chasing my tail for a couple of months, it got
enough worse, that I could press my case for suspected bad caps, RMA'd the
board to GigaByte; they returned it with *every* electrolytic apparently
replaced, so far as I could tell visually, and it seemed to run. Had
trouble with XP, finally decided it was sufficiently corrupt to warrant
reinstallation, did so, and, except for this strange and occasional
shutdown, it seems more or less ok, if you don't mind that oxymoron. It
doesn't benchmark on Everest quite as well as it should, but after this
history, I can't be too picky.

Joe

"Paul" wrote in message ...
jt3 wrote:
Thanks, again, for your time and effort. There are such fans, although
most
of them *are* three-speed models now; Antec sells the 'Tri-cool' which
is
exactly that. They also sell their 'Smart-Cool' model, which is
thermistor-regulated:

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=75012

CompUSA also used to sell a rebranded Chinese fan (of course, that's
what
the Antec is, also) SKU 299936, but they seem to be discontinuing it. I
still see the 80 mm version of the Antec in stores, occasionally. The
Antec
looks like a better fan, though I haven't taken one apart yet, I have
taken
one of the CompUSA ones apart, and the Antecs *look* better from what I
can
see. Don't know if I can find one in any store locally, but I can
always
try ordering directly from Antec. Some reluctance there, since I've had
two
PSUs of theirs fail on me, but whenever one deals with outfits that
contract
out their assemblies as they do, it's a roll of the bones, in a way.

Yes, I noticed some of that same stuff when I was Googling for the chip
some
time back. What was enticing, though, was some reference to Chinese
firms
that were apparently making versions of the chip for replacement
purposes;
no further info, though. And Google referenced that same list (Prelco)
of
data sheets, suggesting that it had once listed one for that chip, even
though I couldn't find it then. So, what I was hoping for was that
someone
might happen to have kept a copy of it. My interest in it involves a no
longer available locking controller for a car, ca. 1991. No idea at all
whether that chip is the problem, but as it was an important factor in
working out the schematic, I was trying for that. As you may guess, I'm
somewhat ill-advisedly inclined to pursue things more involved than
amenable
to simple solutions :-)

Thanks again for your efforts!

Joe

If you still have the link returned by Google, you can check
the web.archive.org site. I already checked for telefunken.de
and didn't get anything of value. The web.archive.org site
adds a "fourth dimension" to the web.

http://web.archive.org/*/http://www....com/datasheets

It is possible that "Telefunken automotive" ended up here. This
web site is a dead loss, in terms of information content.


http://www.conti-online.com/generato...cation_en.html

Paul

jt3 wrote:
Thought you might be interested--empirically it turns out that the board
does *not* report the temp for the chipset; instead, it's CPU, SYS-FAN, and,
get this, PWR_FAN, this in spite of explicitly indicating in the manual that
PWR_FAN has NC on the sense line. So much for the logical inference, to say
nothing of documentation!

Currently running Prime95 trying to discover why machine arbitrarily shuts
down, no error in system logfile. Original Antec 380W psu in the Sonata
case suspected, tried new Antec 500W SmartPower; powered up, shut down 10
seconds after completely booted and running, and wouldn't restart. Returned
to the 380, couldn't get it to shut down again, put 500 in, works fine,
apparently. Thus further checks. Passed nearly a week of Memtest86
earlier. This was a mbd that wouldn't run reliably from the word go, out of
the box. Finally after chasing my tail for a couple of months, it got
enough worse, that I could press my case for suspected bad caps, RMA'd the
board to GigaByte; they returned it with *every* electrolytic apparently
replaced, so far as I could tell visually, and it seemed to run. Had
trouble with XP, finally decided it was sufficiently corrupt to warrant
reinstallation, did so, and, except for this strange and occasional
shutdown, it seems more or less ok, if you don't mind that oxymoron. It
doesn't benchmark on Everest quite as well as it should, but after this
history, I can't be too picky.

Joe


Well, at least that makes more sense. If there were three available fan
monitoring channels, they might as well have connected them up.

An arbitrary shutdown, could be THERMTRIP. But you would hope that
monitoring the CPU temperature, would give you some indication it was
about to happen. Do you have a temp monitoring utility that runs
in Windows ? THERMTRIP is a signal that comes out of modern processors,
and is a shutdown signal to the motherboard. There would be no log
generated, if the signal is used, as shutdown is immediate, and is
not based on interrupts etc.

Prime95 used to have options for various sizes of FFTs. If you use
small FFTs in the test, the test can basically run in the processor
cache. That has the potential to make the processor as hot as possible.
Running with mixed or larger FFTs, is what gives the system memory
a workout. If you notice the shutdowns correlate with Prime95 using
small FFTs, then it could be some temperature effect. I'd have a look
at the heatsink alignment, and perhaps at some point, disassemble the
heatsink assembly and apply fresh thermal paste. A thin layer, which
forces out any air gap, is what you want.

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message ...
snip

Well, at least that makes more sense. If there were three available fan
monitoring channels, they might as well have connected them up.

An arbitrary shutdown, could be THERMTRIP. But you would hope that
monitoring the CPU temperature, would give you some indication it was
about to happen. Do you have a temp monitoring utility that runs
in Windows ? THERMTRIP is a signal that comes out of modern processors,
and is a shutdown signal to the motherboard. There would be no log
generated, if the signal is used, as shutdown is immediate, and is
not based on interrupts etc.

Prime95 used to have options for various sizes of FFTs. If you use
small FFTs in the test, the test can basically run in the processor
cache. That has the potential to make the processor as hot as possible.
Running with mixed or larger FFTs, is what gives the system memory
a workout. If you notice the shutdowns correlate with Prime95 using
small FFTs, then it could be some temperature effect. I'd have a look
at the heatsink alignment, and perhaps at some point, disassemble the
heatsink assembly and apply fresh thermal paste. A thin layer, which
forces out any air gap, is what you want.

Paul

Yes, I've been using the GigaByte monitoring utility, about which I have
some other concerns, viz., what accuracy can one expect from the voltage
readings? The numbers suggest a precision of 0.001 V, which I suspect. The
reason I'm curious is that it reported the core voltage high--~1.58 V while
the 12 V is about 12.23-12.3 V. The 3.3 comes in at about 3.24-3.26. I
adjusted the core down to 1.51. One of the reasons I suspect the precision
of the reporting is that the 12 stays mostly at 12.23 and hops briefly to
12.30 every so often, probably no more than 5% of the time. The 3.3 jumps
approximately evenly between the two values. The core is steady at 1.51
under load (Prime95). These are all taken during the Prime95 run which has
now been running about 28 hours. I chose the option which gave me a mix of
tests, without paying much attention to the nature of the mix.

Your suggestion about the thermal paste is one I take seriously. In the
initial installation, I used the 'processor in a box' package as it was sold
to me.

There wasn't much chance for error in that, but even there I had trouble,
for the first thing I noticed as I started running the machine (prior to
installing XP--this was over 2 years ago, of course) was dangerously high
reported temperatures (BIOS), which induced me to purchase the Zalman
cooler, as the dealer could offer no alternative.

This CPU appeared to be running at 70 deg C just idling in the BIOS screen.
Try as I might, nothing seemed to lower the temperature. I purchased Arctic
Silver, applied scrupulosly according to their directions, using a razor
blade to spread it (rather than putting a small quantity in the center of
the heat spreader and forcing it uniformly out upon application of the heat
sink). I never liked that method of application, even though they (Arctic
Silver) asserted it as the proper and only way.

However, I shortly afterwards found that the temperature reading problem
was in the microcode of the CPU, or at least the way the BIOS (Award) was
reading the CPU sensor, and a later BIOS update changed the whole picture,
and totally removed any reading excesses. The initial installation of XP
was fraught with hang-ups, blue screen type, and every sort of thing that
makes more sense in light of the motherboard's subsequent history. But
since that time, the CPU has been reinstalled twice, using the same method
as they recommended, so I don't have great confidence in it. The only thing
arguing against it, that I can see, is that, so far it has stayed
rock-steady at 34C all through Prime95, and the 4 times it quit with the 380
W psu, only one was any farther than, say 10 minutes from boot, and this is
all at idle. It has never quit while trying to do anything with it. The
stoppage with the 500W psu, is another matter altogether, since it wouldn't
even turn on afterwards. I only tried turning it on, say, over a 1/2 hour
period, before pulling it apart and then putting the 380 back in. But it
wouldn't even light the LED, which is why I was so sure it was the psu. But
now, that same psu has been running longer than all its time before, and
under Prime95, even if it isn't the heaviest possible load, without so much
as a burp. Shortly, it will have run longer than it did with the 380 since
the XP reinstallation. Since I am well into doing nearly everything over
that I have done on the machine for about the fourth time, pulling the cpu
cooler out and reinstalling it shouldn't be so bad, but the Zalman is a mess
in its installation. Since it has been a while (September) since the board
came back the irritation should be dulled, but I find myself ever more
inclined to throw the machine into the middle of rush-hour traffic. It
would be nice if I could just get the thing to stop again as it seemed to
want to do a couple of days ago--half of me wants to believe it has 'gotten
well' while the less credulous half of me knows that doesn't happen.

I'll post back to the thread when I've got any results worth reporting.

Thank you very much for your time and efforts,

Joe