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#11
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Which drive would you get?
jerryab wrote:
Filip454 wrote: This is the biggest myth, which is also constantly repeated on the internet. Lower temperature =/= running longer It is no myth for electronic components. Running hotter = shorter component life. Except your hypothesis is one-ended. Running too cold is more deadly than running too hot. Also, there is a difference between a drive that is running hot (outside of its operating temperature range) and just running hotter (which is relative to some base value that is often never specified). Google and others have actually done massive studies on hard drive failure rates under various environmental conditions - versus you and others promulgating that age-old and unfounded myths based on casual observation. https://www.zdnet.com/article/heat-d...res-what-does/ (use the link to the PDF to read the research) https://www.teamsilverback.com/humid...-drive-killer/ Turns out humidity has a greater effect on hard drive longevity than does temperature (wherein the restriction that you are running the hard disk within its rated operating temperature range, not at extremes). Hard disks are not sealed. The cinter filter only prevents particulate debris from getting inside, not gases or vapors. Surge current (electrical stress), thermal stress (temperature delta), and mechanical stress are more important than running hot or cold (but again within the rated operating temperature range). USB-attached drives and even internal ones (depending on power options) can be stressed more by power cycling them or repeatedly spinning down and resuming on activity. Even physical orientation of the disk has more of an effective on longevity than does runnning at the high end of the operating temperature range. Manufacturers say there is no difference because they are specifying within the MTBF rating for their product. Heat rising off a horizontal platter does not cross over and reheat the platter as would occur in a vertical orientation. This is the same consideration when planning air flow within the chassis: do not push pre-heated air over components that you are trying to cool. Also, in the past, manufacturers used to recommend the drive was formatted in the same orientation under which it would be used. In other words, don't format when horizontal and then use when vertical. Mostly that has been lost regarding longevity of the drive but there is still a performance degrade. See: http://lowendmac.com/2018/does-hard-...t-performance/ The results show "it depends on the make and model of the drive". So, it's not a hard and fast rule but can occur. USB-attached and even internal disks using Power Options will spin down when idle. This means cooling down. It means a power surge on spin up which means heating up. Higher activity means more energy consumed which means more heat; however, activity fluctuates for end user hosts versus file servers where the drive is likely to be constantly active. Electrical stress (surge), thermal stress, and mechanical stress also factor into longevity. As the Google study shows, age far outweighs any temperature factor regarding longevity - with 2 years being the major factor to change from 2% to 8% AFR (annualized failure rate). That is, longevity is not linear with age of the drive. |
#12
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Which drive would you get?
VanguardLH wrote:
jerryab wrote: Filip454 wrote: This is the biggest myth, which is also constantly repeated on the internet. Lower temperature =/= running longer It is no myth for electronic components. Running hotter = shorter component life. Except your hypothesis is one-ended. Running too cold is more deadly than running too hot. Also, there is a difference between a drive that is running hot (outside of its operating temperature range) and just running hotter (which is relative to some base value that is often never specified). Google and others have actually done massive studies on hard drive failure rates under various environmental conditions - versus you and others promulgating that age-old and unfounded myths based on casual observation. There's nothing unfounded or mythical about it. The "Hardware Lifetime Models" section of the paper you reference (page 5 in the PDF) clearly describes the known correlation of increased temperature with the decreased lifetime of electronic components and devices. It's point was that with higher humidities (which are more common in cooler datacentre enviroments, but are also not an essential characteristic of them), corrosion beats the other effects of higher temperatures "to the punch" in terms of what kills off HDDs. If you can achieve cooler operation without higher humidity, then that's still preferable to a higher temperature. Now what I don't understand is why there's no consideration given to preventing the damage that can be caused by humidity in the first place. Humidity and electronics are long adversaries, especially in millitary applications. During WWII lacquers to seal electronics against such harsh enviroments were successfully developed and are today available cheaply for spray-on application (I've got a can myself. Oh hell, it's leaked...). It's still applied to most millitary and other high-reliability electronics, but generally consumer and business electronics are used in enviroments where corrosion isn't considered enough of an issue to warrant this protection. To me this suggests that datacentre design has allowed the humidity levels to slip a bit above normal, but in any case I don't see why circuit board laquer (or "conformal coating", to use the modern industry term) couldn't simply be applied to HDD circuit boards to prevent the problem with only a minor associated cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_coating This wouldn't solve issues with corrosion to the HDD connectors, which the study included as part of the problem. However again this is no new issue for the electronics industry, with various approaches available to combat the problem at a hardware level. https://www.zdnet.com/article/heat-d...res-what-does/ (use the link to the PDF to read the research) https://www.teamsilverback.com/humid...-drive-killer/ Turns out humidity has a greater effect on hard drive longevity than does temperature (wherein the restriction that you are running the hard disk within its rated operating temperature range, not at extremes). Hard disks are not sealed. The cinter filter only prevents particulate debris from getting inside, not gases or vapors. That's nothing to do with the humidity problem. The original paper states that humidity causes failures due to corrosion of the electronics on the HDD controller circuit board, and the HDD connectors. (see "causes of failure", page 7 in the PDF). Surge current (electrical stress), thermal stress (temperature delta), and mechanical stress are more important than running hot or cold (but again within the rated operating temperature range). Actually the paper states that temperature is the next most important enviromental factor after humidity (though the effects of the latter are claimed to be much more significant). (pg. 11, though it's stated more plainly somewhere else that I can't find now). USB-attached drives and even internal ones (depending on power options) can be stressed more by power cycling them or repeatedly spinning down and resuming on activity. Yes, though that's a separate matter to operating temperature/environment. Even physical orientation of the disk has more of an effective on longevity than does runnning at the high end of the operating temperature range. Manufacturers say there is no difference because they are specifying within the MTBF rating for their product. Heat rising off a horizontal platter does not cross over and reheat the platter as would occur in a vertical orientation. This is the same consideration when planning air flow within the chassis: do not push pre-heated air over components that you are trying to cool. Also, in the past, manufacturers used to recommend the drive was formatted in the same orientation under which it would be used. In other words, don't format when horizontal and then use when vertical. Mostly that has been lost regarding longevity of the drive but there is still a performance degrade. See: http://lowendmac.com/2018/does-hard-...t-performance/ The results show "it depends on the make and model of the drive". So, it's not a hard and fast rule but can occur. USB-attached and even internal disks using Power Options will spin down when idle. This means cooling down. It means a power surge on spin up which means heating up. Higher activity means more energy consumed which means more heat; however, activity fluctuates for end user hosts versus file servers where the drive is likely to be constantly active. Electrical stress (surge), thermal stress, and mechanical stress also factor into longevity. As the Google study shows, age far outweighs any temperature factor regarding longevity - with 2 years being the major factor to change from 2% to 8% AFR (annualized failure rate). That is, longevity is not linear with age of the drive. I haven't read this Google study, but assuming it follows the same definition of "old age" as the humidity study, this includes things like "Power-On Hours" and "Spin-up Count", so a "failure" here is presumably where a drive is simply towards the end of its estimated lifetime and therefore retired. In this case it's irrelevent for comparing with other "failures". -- __ __ #_ |\| | _# |
#13
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Which drive would you get?
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Now what I don't understand is why there's no consideration given to preventing the damage that can be caused by humidity in the first place. After having opened several failed HDDs, I've found a recess with a plastic bubble containing what look to be very small carbon pellets; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0NW-Vx5vM. I've done no analysis on what they are made, but I can't see any purpose for them other than to absorb water when humidity is high and effuse water when humidity is low. I suppose consumer-grade HDDs could be sealed provided they could withstand a pressure change of 2 atmospheres which doesn't sound like that much pressure. With helium-filled HDDs, they must be sealed. However, helium is a limited (non-renewable) natural resource (and the commercial helium produced under high pressure is expensive), so that's a fad that will disappear when helium prices begin to skyrocket due to reserve shortages. |
#14
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Which drive would you get?
On 2/20/2019 4:02 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote: Now what I don't understand is why there's no consideration given to preventing the damage that can be caused by humidity in the first place. After having opened several failed HDDs, I've found a recess with a plastic bubble containing what look to be very small carbon pellets; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0NW-Vx5vM. I've done no analysis on what they are made, but I can't see any purpose for them other than to absorb water when humidity is high and effuse water when humidity is low. I suppose consumer-grade HDDs could be sealed provided they could withstand a pressure change of 2 atmospheres which doesn't sound like that much pressure. With helium-filled HDDs, they must be sealed. However, helium is a limited (non-renewable) natural resource (and the commercial helium produced under high pressure is expensive), so that's a fad that will disappear when helium prices begin to skyrocket due to reserve shortages. Do you have any figures on the cost of the helium in a sealed helium drive ? Lynn |
#15
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Which drive would you get?
VanguardLH wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote: Now what I don't understand is why there's no consideration given to preventing the damage that can be caused by humidity in the first place. After having opened several failed HDDs, I've found a recess with a plastic bubble containing what look to be very small carbon pellets; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0NW-Vx5vM. I've done no analysis on what they are made, but I can't see any purpose for them other than to absorb water when humidity is high and effuse water when humidity is low. I suppose consumer-grade HDDs could be sealed provided they could withstand a pressure change of 2 atmospheres which doesn't sound like that much pressure. Well I'm going blindly on the original report, as it's what informed me that humidity is a significant problem in the first place. It says that all the damage is done to the control electronics, not the mechanical components. Perhaps that means that the mysterious pellets are doing their job, but in any case the protection of the controller circuit board (in fact, the lack of any) isn't sufficient. Maybe after extending the life of the electronics in a humid environment, corrosion of the mechanical parts will become the next cause of failure, or maybe not. At worst you've extended the life in a humid environment by some significant degree, at best humidity is no longer a problem and it's back to only worrying about temperature as the main factor contributing to early failures. -- __ __ #_ |\| | _# |
#16
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Which drive would you get?
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 2/20/2019 4:02 AM, VanguardLH wrote: Computer Nerd Kev wrote: Now what I don't understand is why there's no consideration given to preventing the damage that can be caused by humidity in the first place. After having opened several failed HDDs, I've found a recess with a plastic bubble containing what look to be very small carbon pellets; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0NW-Vx5vM. I've done no analysis on what they are made, but I can't see any purpose for them other than to absorb water when humidity is high and effuse water when humidity is low. I suppose consumer-grade HDDs could be sealed provided they could withstand a pressure change of 2 atmospheres which doesn't sound like that much pressure. With helium-filled HDDs, they must be sealed. However, helium is a limited (non-renewable) natural resource (and the commercial helium produced under high pressure is expensive), so that's a fad that will disappear when helium prices begin to skyrocket due to reserve shortages. Do you have any figures on the cost of the helium in a sealed helium drive ? http://www.weldingandgasestoday.org/...ium_prices.png https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...684044391.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2...an-do-about-it |
#17
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Which drive would you get?
On 2/20/2019 5:06 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote: On 2/20/2019 4:02 AM, VanguardLH wrote: Computer Nerd Kev wrote: Now what I don't understand is why there's no consideration given to preventing the damage that can be caused by humidity in the first place. After having opened several failed HDDs, I've found a recess with a plastic bubble containing what look to be very small carbon pellets; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0NW-Vx5vM. I've done no analysis on what they are made, but I can't see any purpose for them other than to absorb water when humidity is high and effuse water when humidity is low. I suppose consumer-grade HDDs could be sealed provided they could withstand a pressure change of 2 atmospheres which doesn't sound like that much pressure. With helium-filled HDDs, they must be sealed. However, helium is a limited (non-renewable) natural resource (and the commercial helium produced under high pressure is expensive), so that's a fad that will disappear when helium prices begin to skyrocket due to reserve shortages. Do you have any figures on the cost of the helium in a sealed helium drive ? http://www.weldingandgasestoday.org/...ium_prices.png https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...684044391.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2...an-do-about-it I can get you any quantity of helium that you want. Any chemical engineer can build you an air extraction plant. Or a natural gas extraction plants for several fields in the central USA. You are willing to pay $100/ft3, right ? BTW, I asked what is the cost of the amount of helium that goes into a hard drive. I would be surprised if the current cost is more than ten cents and that the future projected cost was a buck. Lynn |
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