IDE RAID- Major problem need to save my data

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:03:53 GMT, CJT
wrote:


There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
controller with same/similar bios will work.

Are you sure no motherboard RAID stores configuration info
on the motherboard?

I don't need to be sure of it do I? I didn't set up the
RAID. Yes, I am sure the OP's RAID config is stored
entirely on the drives.

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:51:57 +1100, "Kadaitcha Man"
wrote:

kony wrote:

"Hope"? This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.

That's where you made your mistake. Most normal people learn from
experience. Not everyone has a pin-head that needs to be buried in a book
for a long swot just in case they **** up. Maybe if your parents had
molly-coddled you a little less.


LOL.

Yes they learn by doing, but the prudent choice for data
storage would then be on devices and technology one has
already learned, NOT just "hoping" later. "Most people"
don't make regular backups either. "Most people" lose their
data if/when something goes wrong. We could dwell on what
not to do or what TO do.

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:13:30 GMT, Curious George
wrote:




I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..

"Hope"?

Different controllers and raid software store the configuration in
different places (not always on drives or recovered from the drives)
and use it differently for recovery purposes. I "hope" that "this"
mobo can reconstruct the controller config from the drives and there
is good flexibility for swap out with similar or identical HW. Yes
this all seems doable but it is not clear to me how much of a PITA the
whole thing is going to be (including locating the 'right' HW).

Again, an example of why you shouldn't be comparing or
contrasting, because you don't have the needed information
to do so.

It's not "reconstruct", nor a matter of flexibility. It's a
matter of using same controller and similar enough bios
version that there wasn't a sweeping change. In other
words, the chipset manufacturer does document if/when bios
changes are significant enough to cause loss of data. User
should not write to drive, merely hook it up and try it. If
the data is not readable then a look at the raid bios notes
is needed to determine where the version break-point was
that changed the parameters... and use the appropriate bios
version. This is usually not necessary, I only mentioned it
as a worst-case scenario.



This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.

Well of course, but how much can a novice really learn from manuals.
They learn what's important from doing (& from getting burnt).

Yes, this is why it's important to learn how BEFORE any
expectations of vital data storage... and at the very least,
have the restorable backup.


I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...

Not really making an ata raid comment per se. Only highlighting that
not all RAID HW & implemetations are equal (from a useability,
convenience, etc. standpoint) and sometime you can encounter a real
PITA for any number or reasons - including not being able to get an
identical board, compatibility with other readily available boards,
etc. Of course some product lines try harder to insulate you from
troubles - but that's not really the point I'm making.

I agree, but fortunately when one sticks to a very common
chipset with config-on-drives as these are, it's very easy
to recovery from a controller/board failure.


There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
controller with same/similar bios will work. Towards that
end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
might be easier to use a PCI card to recover,

so all Promise cards & onboard chips are totally compatible? config,
CHS translation, LBA, driver always identical?
(really asking here)

I never suggested they were. All of the same chipsets are
compatible with same bios versions. Some of the chipsets
do support configs made by others, for example a Fasttrack66
can be read by a FastTrack100, IIRC, but only in bios prior
to introduction of 48bit LBA... or perhaps it was a
different version-break point, I'd have to look it up.
There are sufficient Promise chipset products that this
isn't necessary, and there may've only been one Promise
ATA133 chipset integrated on motherboards... I only recall
one.



since flashing
a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
RAID bios version used on the old board

Huh? you're going to flash some PCI card with what? for what
purpose?

Did you read what I wrote?
PCI controller card, flash different bios version, for
purpose of reading data IF the PCI card had a significantly
older or newer bios not compatible with the bios used on the
motherboard controller. You might have to do it before
you'd realize the simplicity in doing so.

How many variables are you going to change during the
recovery process?

This is really easy for someone accustomed to dealing with
Promise controllers:

- Same chipset
- If default/shipping bios doesn't work, flash different
bios per previous controller bios revision

What is hard about that? It takes about 1/10 the time it
took to write your post.

Normally all software levels have to match to work
properly (esp/incl driver). The more complicated you make this the
more likely you're going to muck things up - including messing up the
new raid card.

This is not complicated, you must have some preconceived
notion interfering with the simple two-step process... and
typically it's a one-step process, bios flashing isn't
usually needed, I only offered the info "just in case" it
was.


Maybe he should image the drives or backup certain sectors before
trying any suggestions esp w' experimenting w' different mobos or
cards?

It's real simple - Don't write to the drives, including NOT
making ANY changes in the RAID bios setup. The drives will
be read OK with zero config or you don't have the right
controller or bios version. Drivers are NOT needed for
RAID0. Well, if they were formatted as NTFS you do need a
driver for that, but it has nothing to do with the RAID or
controller... just windows NT/etc... hook it up in a working
system with the PCI card will be fine, and as with any other
hardware, you already had to know "somehow" what driver to
use, right? This is no different, all the needed info,
driver, is either included on the CDROM with product or
downloadable from manufacturer.


(if manufacturer
didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
determining this),

That would truly be magic as the mobo is toast & he can't locate
another. (This is where those multi-year warranties come in handy).

Nope, he'd either have to remember flashing the bios or
enquire about what bios version shipped on his revision of
the motherboard... or just download a bios from mobo
manufacturer... you don't need a board to determine info
about bios.


You mean from the image file DL'ed from the manufacturer? How does
that help if he doesn't know 'which' BIOS level he was using on the
original board?

You're making it seem hard, when it's usually not.
Why? What's the point of all this when it's relatively easy
to do it?

Just don't write to the drive. If you have one RAID bios
that doesn't work, try a different one. Whatever clues the
individual can gather to narrow down the bios version, might
help reduce the time it takes trying different bios, but
ultimately it's doable, repeatable, not luck or chance or
hope, etc, etc.


in the off chance that the default bios
on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
bios to ensure same raid bios version.

but the mobo is toast...

Those tools work with bios images, have no need for the
original board. As with anything else, I advise practicing
with them before doing something critical like flashing a
modded bios to a board... BUT, if user is capable of
flashing EEPROM another way too, it matters even less. I
suppose what it all boils down to is that the more skill
you have the more you can get away with doing... so long as
you already have a recovery plan rather than just a vague
concept that there might be some way to recover... which is
drifting off topic

That is a fair reason to be even more weary of motherboard
RAID controllers instead of separate PCI card, since the
odds of a motherboard failing are far higher than a RAID
card failing... especially in PC grade boards.

kony wrote:
We could dwell on what
not to do or what TO do.

No. Whatever I decide is it, is it. End of argument.

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:45:59 GMT, kony wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:13:30 GMT, Curious George
wrote:




I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..

"Hope"?

Different controllers and raid software store the configuration in
different places (not always on drives or recovered from the drives)
and use it differently for recovery purposes. I "hope" that "this"
mobo can reconstruct the controller config from the drives and there
is good flexibility for swap out with similar or identical HW. Yes
this all seems doable but it is not clear to me how much of a PITA the
whole thing is going to be (including locating the 'right' HW).

Again, an example of why you shouldn't be comparing or
contrasting, because you don't have the needed information
to do so.

It's not "reconstruct", nor a matter of flexibility. It's a
matter of using same controller and similar enough bios
version that there wasn't a sweeping change. In other
words, the chipset manufacturer does document if/when bios
changes are significant enough to cause loss of data. User
should not write to drive, merely hook it up and try it. If
the data is not readable then a look at the raid bios notes
is needed to determine where the version break-point was
that changed the parameters... and use the appropriate bios
version. This is usually not necessary, I only mentioned it
as a worst-case scenario.

Uh huh. - so the logical drive configuration is simply read off the
disks during post and need not be restored to the controller? That
makes sense as NVRAM adds cost.

Well that's certainly an argument for software or hardware assisted
software raid. If the controller is the only problem than it's fast
to be up and running again (even if you are out of warranty even
drastic solutions are cheap & fast).

It's also an argument against it - if the dying controller or other
mishap also marked drives as offline you want to recover - or if you
are performing tests and want to quickly switch between several
configs.


This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.

Well of course, but how much can a novice really learn from manuals.
They learn what's important from doing (& from getting burnt).

Yes, this is why it's important to learn how BEFORE any
expectations of vital data storage... and at the very least,
have the restorable backup.


I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...

Not really making an ata raid comment per se. Only highlighting that
not all RAID HW & implemetations are equal (from a useability,
convenience, etc. standpoint) and sometime you can encounter a real
PITA for any number or reasons - including not being able to get an
identical board, compatibility with other readily available boards,
etc. Of course some product lines try harder to insulate you from
troubles - but that's not really the point I'm making.

I agree, but fortunately when one sticks to a very common
chipset with config-on-drives as these are, it's very easy
to recovery from a controller/board failure.


There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
controller with same/similar bios will work. Towards that
end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
might be easier to use a PCI card to recover,

so all Promise cards & onboard chips are totally compatible? config,
CHS translation, LBA, driver always identical?
(really asking here)

I never suggested they were. All of the same chipsets are
compatible with same bios versions. Some of the chipsets
do support configs made by others, for example a Fasttrack66
can be read by a FastTrack100, IIRC, but only in bios prior
to introduction of 48bit LBA... or perhaps it was a
different version-break point, I'd have to look it up.
There are sufficient Promise chipset products that this
isn't necessary, and there may've only been one Promise
ATA133 chipset integrated on motherboards... I only recall
one.



since flashing
a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
RAID bios version used on the old board

Huh? you're going to flash some PCI card with what? for what
purpose?

Did you read what I wrote?
PCI controller card, flash different bios version, for
purpose of reading data IF the PCI card had a significantly
older or newer bios not compatible with the bios used on the
motherboard controller. You might have to do it before
you'd realize the simplicity in doing so.

How many variables are you going to change during the
recovery process?

This is really easy for someone accustomed to dealing with
Promise controllers:

- Same chipset
- If default/shipping bios doesn't work, flash different
bios per previous controller bios revision

What is hard about that? It takes about 1/10 the time it
took to write your post.

Normally all software levels have to match to work
properly (esp/incl driver). The more complicated you make this the
more likely you're going to muck things up - including messing up the
new raid card.

This is not complicated, you must have some preconceived
notion interfering with the simple two-step process... and
typically it's a one-step process, bios flashing isn't
usually needed, I only offered the info "just in case" it
was.


Maybe he should image the drives or backup certain sectors before
trying any suggestions esp w' experimenting w' different mobos or
cards?

It's real simple - Don't write to the drives, including NOT
making ANY changes in the RAID bios setup.

If drives get incorrectly marked offline it is not so simple. Things
often misbehave when they are dying and sometimes users screw things
up when they notice problems surfacing. But IF the drives are perfect
& IF the user does his homework, it should be as painless as you say.

The drives will
be read OK with zero config or you don't have the right
controller or bios version. Drivers are NOT needed for
RAID0. Well, if they were formatted as NTFS you do need a
driver for that, but it has nothing to do with the RAID or
controller... just windows NT/etc... hook it up in a working
system with the PCI card will be fine, and as with any other
hardware, you already had to know "somehow" what driver to
use, right? This is no different, all the needed info,
driver, is either included on the CDROM with product or
downloadable from manufacturer.


(if manufacturer
didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
determining this),

That would truly be magic as the mobo is toast & he can't locate
another. (This is where those multi-year warranties come in handy).

Nope, he'd either have to remember flashing the bios or
enquire about what bios version shipped on his revision of
the motherboard... or just download a bios from mobo
manufacturer... you don't need a board to determine info
about bios.


You mean from the image file DL'ed from the manufacturer? How does
that help if he doesn't know 'which' BIOS level he was using on the
original board?

You're making it seem hard, when it's usually not.
Why? What's the point of all this when it's relatively easy
to do it?

Just don't write to the drive. If you have one RAID bios
that doesn't work, try a different one. Whatever clues the
individual can gather to narrow down the bios version, might
help reduce the time it takes trying different bios, but
ultimately it's doable, repeatable, not luck or chance or
hope, etc, etc.


in the off chance that the default bios
on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
bios to ensure same raid bios version.

but the mobo is toast...

Those tools work with bios images, have no need for the
original board. As with anything else, I advise practicing
with them before doing something critical like flashing a
modded bios to a board... BUT, if user is capable of
flashing EEPROM another way too, it matters even less. I
suppose what it all boils down to is that the more skill
you have the more you can get away with doing... so long as
you already have a recovery plan rather than just a vague
concept that there might be some way to recover... which is
drifting off topic

That is a fair reason to be even more weary of motherboard
RAID controllers instead of separate PCI card, since the
odds of a motherboard failing are far higher than a RAID
card failing... especially in PC grade boards.

Curious George wrote:

(snip)

Ever consider trimming the parts of the post that you're not
responding to? This would save a lot of scrolling-down looking for
something else to read.

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:20:28 -0600, chrisv
wrote:

Curious George wrote:

(snip)

Ever consider trimming the parts of the post that you're not
responding to? This would save a lot of scrolling-down looking for
something else to read.

Sorry. I could've done that better.

"chrisv" wrote in message
Curious George wrote:

(snip)

Ever consider trimming the parts of the post that you're not
responding to? This would save a lot of scrolling-down looking for

something else to read.

What 'else to read'? All I only see is lots of posturing.

Posturing?

What nerve!

That's supposed to be your job Folkert!

kony wrote:
On 27 Nov 2004 18:07:27 -0800, (MC)
wrote:


I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
with the same RAID chipset.


What does "shot" mean?
Some common failings like failed capacitors or inoperative
bios can be relatively inexpensively fixed, if you don't
have the inclination to do so yourself... especially if you
only need the board operable long enough to copy off data.


Even if I throw the computer out, I really
need to save my data. My questions a

1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
need to boot or anything else).


No, the odds are bad, typically it won't work... but you
might find a promise card with same chipset. Often
motherboards use what they call a "Promise Lite" bios but
it's the same full-featured RAID chip you'd find on a card
(one having same Promise ATA(nnn) chip on it of course.


2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?


No, you definitely can't get that data that way.

What motherboard was it? Is the rest of the system operable
still, for example you have a working CPU and memory
available?
I put drives of bad computers into a second computer sytem, boot from
the Knoppix Live CDrom, copy the files over to a known good drive, and
save files in that manner!

BUT, if you are talking moving your drives over to another computer, to
boot up XP or it's ilk, it probably will through you into fits! M$
didn't want that, and so, it can be the dickens trying to do what the
MOTHERSHIP prohibits!