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Bad news for ATI: Nvidia to 'own' ATI at CeBit - no pixel shader 3.0 support in R420 (long)
Bad news for ATI: Nvidia to 'own' ATI at CeBit / no pixel shader 3.0
support in R420 It looks like R420, while potentially up to 3 times faster(in PS 2.0 and VS 2.0 shaders) than R360, will not be PS 3.0 compliant. If NVIDIA notches up similar PS 2.0 performance, ATI is in trouble. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lastly there is word on the NV40 R420 front. Neither card was shown, but several people who would be familiar with both have said Nvidia is going to come back very strong soon. The word 'own' was bandied about, as in Nvidia will own ATI. Not sure what it means, but CeBit should be a very interesting show. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Babelfish translation of the 'no PS2.0 shaders in R420' article: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ATi R420, R423 & CO. Information 22. February 2004/from Leonidas /page 1 of 2 After we could give at the end of January an already rather complete overview of the coming nVidia Grafikchips, naturally the question was located in the area, which is to be expected 2004 now from ATi for the spring. At the time of the nVidia article the information was however still quite RSR sown to the coming ATi Grafikchips, which left itself whole roughly in three paragraphs to summarize. Remedy created here only an article on the part of AnandTech of last week, in which the plans were stated in detail by ATi already quite. We want in the following predominantly to rely on these information on the part of AnandTech, enweaving thereby however still somewhat own knowledge - and some substantial details have to in addition-carry for the classification of the individual diagram chips, which do not admit to date yet were and from which zumindestens one for more than plentifully Diskussionstoff will provide: -). First still briefly to the "class" of the following information: These are - if not differently characterized - secure information. Both that confirmed with AnandTech said and our additions us by one called from first hand informed source and/or. And thus to the coming main project of ATi, the R420 chip. That one has - one believes the rumors to this case - a plentifully eventful history behind itself. Originally the R400-Chip with Shader 3,0 support the chips of the R3x0-Serie should beerben still in the autumn 2003, but allegedly ATi was not really content in the last year with the all first performance Simulationen of the R400. One can speculate upon it that the Shader was possibly 3,0 performance correct, however the Shader 2,0 performance to expectations here did not correspond. Since however at present and in the near future with DirectX9-Benchmarks the employment of Shader 3,0 takes time still, one would have 3,0 with a beautiful technical toy for Shader, but without the necessary basic performance in the reality with Shader 2,0 stood there. So anyhow a possible explanation, why ATi of the R400-Chip in a still very early Design phase displeased so that one cancelte the project completely. The useful parts of the R400-Designs for the R420 following the R500-Projekt are alleged were taken over - and for the meantime, there one not simply after the R350 (Radeon 9800/pro) nothing new to finally bring could, did not need one a solution which can be realized fast, which above all the error of the R400 - technically point, but with the performance less well - did not begin. One decided in the long run to begin beside the R360-Chip (Radeon 9800XT ) as a further Refresh of the R300-Chips (Radeon 9700/pro ) for temporal bypass, the R420-Projekt. The R420, first also admits Loki "as project", should not thereby not the large technological project like the R400 become, but the proven technology of the preceding chips R300 (Radeon 9700/pro) , R350 (Radeon 9800/pro) and R360 (Radeon 9800XT) in substantially improved way to resume, without beginning thereby however a generally new Design as with the R400. Speak: Primarily clearly more performance, less however new features. Became already early for this the substantial point admits, in which kind ATi wants to realize this: The use of the 130nm production technology. The preceding chips of the R3x0-Linie all together still in 150nm manufactured, in particular 412 MHz chip clock of the Radeon 9800XT (nevertheless 107 million transistors heavily) appear with it as engineer-technical master achievement. By means of the smaller production technology ATi might know the R420 with ease more highly clocks, even if this more transistors bring along than the predecessors from the R3x0-Linie. The other substantial point resulted already indirectly from leading - however naturally only on rumors are based - history over the career/development of the R400 and R420-Chips. Because since the R420 descends generally seen still from the R3x0-Design, it was actually improbable rather that the R420-Chip Shader 3,0 support could offer. To a R3x0-Chip the support for Vertex and pixel Shader 3,0 simply "to to-seal", is not really possible, but the Shader 3,0 to the Shadern 2.0 is too different. Now, this was the theoretical consideration on basis of the rumor Story around R400 and R420. In the future this opinion, the R420 did not turn out could Shader 3,0 support have, however more and more into oblivion - all world including even S3, XGI and Intel talked on its Roadmaps finally about the Shader 3,0 support and each rumor kitchen arranged the R420 generally than "Shader 3,0 chip", so that it became ever more improbable that this like that is not. But far been missing - the original theoretical consideration was nevertheless correct, because: We can confirm free of doubts that the ATi R420-Chip will not offer Shader 3,0 support. Now the renouncement of this feature reaches alone still no performance increase - apart from it that one saves for transistors and so that only on 160 million with the R420 comes contrary to 175 million with nVidia the NV40. behind this renouncement it stands nevertheless a clear intention: ATi says for this that the Shader 3,0 will not have such meaning, as the IT world assumes possibly at present, to insert and that one concentrated therefore with the R420 rather purposefully on the Shader 2,0 performance, instead of with the Shadern 3,0 a beautiful, but rather useless check list feature. One does not refer here also to injustice to the Shader 2.X nVidia of the DirectX9-Chips, which were used only extremely rarely by the play programmers. Besides the compatibility of the R420 and its successors endangered by the renouncement of Shader 3,0 is probably hardly, because already million Shader 2,0 diagram chips were sold in form of the present DirectX9-Beschleuniger, whose user can probably annoy no play programmer in the next years by the requirement of Shader 3,0 capable diagram chips. Besides play programmers set gladly and often on the smallest common denominator - and this reads now once with DirectX9-Chips Shader 2.0. Generally seen one must here thus quite give right to ATi: Presently and also during lifetimes of the R420-Chips simple Shader 3,0 support in plays could be counted probably still at a hand. Plays, which Shader presupposes 3,0 directly, besides into the market will probably only come if the R420 were degradiert long to the LowCost product. Because straight come at present once the first plays with obligation to DirectX8-Hardware into the market, plays with obligation to DirectX9-Hardware (on Shader 2,0 basis) are not even announced our knowledge to. With difficulty it only to arrange this for the users and customers had finally zeroed in itself more or less all on the Shader 3,0 support as the feature of the coming NEXT gene generation of ATi and nVidia. Also the Shader makes itself 3,0 support surely outstanding as check list feature in the OEM market, of the manufacturing firms then gladly also falsely as "DirectX 9,1 support" described (which nonsense is natural, as here already implemented) . Positive way is not sufficient however the support of Shader 2,0 also, in order to come with the Windows XP successor "Longhorn" into the highest possible hardware class ("animal 2 ") to the representation of the new 3D-Oberflaeche von Longhorn, for this Shader 3,0 support is needed. Surely the message, which equips ATi the R420 only with Shader 2,0 support, will provide for a violent discussion. ATi made the strategic decision here to omit the Shader 3,0 support with the R420 in order to concentrate on the performance under Shader 2,0 applications - these are those applications, with which the R420 will be confronted during its lifetimes. From the thing this consideration is correct, but ATi offers thereby naturally also some attack region for nVidia, which will evenly offer the Shader 3,0 support with the NV4x-Linie - and this technological superiority surely also marketing-technically to use will try. Off the surely flashing discussion over sense and nonsense of Shader ATi with the renouncement of these in addition, a clear guideline for the R420 gave 3,0: This chip is to accumulate under Shader 2,0 to the absolute maximum form. The chip will have further 8 Rendering pipelines like its predecessors, but these are to have been substantially improved. Which hides itself exactly behind it, one did not want to say us however yet. Several texture units per pipeline could be (the R3x0-Chips had everything only one texture unit per pipeline) , it could also internal improvements be, which will then probably understand rather only the chip experts by us. Zumindestens is to have energetically worked on the Rendering pipelines, in order to carry the Shader 2,0 performance on a new level. Furthermore the number of Vertex Shader of 4 to 6 was increased, which could give an increase of the Vertex achievement to the R420 as well as the clock increase and the internal improvements over up to 100 per cent . In all other respects this increase of the number of Vertex Shader (the number is not directly comparable in all other respects with the nVidia chips, which a Vertex Shader array uses) is not enough out, in order to explain the 50 million more transistors according to our calculations - here might be in the R420 thus still place for or other surprise, is it mentioned more texture units or however improved anti- Aliasing and/or anisotropic filtering the already. Unfortunately at present still no information is present, which intends to really change and/or improve ATi with the R420 concerning anti- Aliasing and anisotropic filter. Off the performance, which enough is naturally never: -), is the quality of the anti- Aliasings of the current ATi chips surely already quite optimally , while one bilinearen however with the quality, trilinear and anisotropic filter to surely still add can. From it thus momentarily the following can refrained be said in summary about the R420-Chip: ATi R420 generell basierend auf den R3x0-Chips, allerdings mit vielen Verbesserungen an der Shader-Architektur 160 Millionen Transistoren, in 130nm bei TSMC gefertigt 8 Rendering-Pipelines, Anzahl der Textureneinheiten unbekannt 6 Vertex Shader Einheiten DirectX 9.0 Architektur, unterstützt Shader 2.0 256 Bit Speicherinterface, unterstützt DDR1, GDDR2 und GDDR3 internes AGPx8 Interface genaue Taktraten: unbekannt; laut AnandTech runde 500 MHz Chip- und Speichertakt Präsentation: vermutlich noch erstes Quartal 2004 Markteintritt: zweites Quartal 2004 Die aus dem Artikel von AnandTech stammenden Chip- und Speichertakte hören sich erst einmal relativ niedrig an, insbesondere wenn man den NV40 derzeit auf 500 bis 600 MHz Chiptakt und 600 bis 800 MHz Speichertakt taxiert. Allerdings wären das gegenüber dem R360-Chip (Radeon 9800XT) immerhin auch schon 21 Prozent mehr Chip- und ganze 37 Prozent mehr Speichertakt, während nVidia bei angenommenen 550/600 MHz gegenüber dem NV38 (GeForceFX 5950 Ultra) takttechnisch "nur" um 16 bzw. 26 Prozent zulegt. Zudem kann man davon ausgehen, daß beim Speichertakt definitiv noch Spielraum nach oben ist, immerhin hat Samsung kürzlich die Massenproduktion von GDDR3 mit bis zu 800 MHz Taktfrequenz begonnen. Auch beim Chiptakt sollte aufgrund der 130nm Fertigung eigentlich noch etwas mehr möglich sein - in diesem Punkt erscheinen uns die genannten Taktraten doch etwas konservativ angegeben. Wir können uns für unseren Teil also durchaus vorstellen, daß ATi eine mögliche Pro-Version des R420 auch höher taktet als jene 500/500 MHz, welche AnandTech genannt haben. ATi R420, R423 & CO. Information 22. February 2004/from Leonidas /page 2 of 2 As evident from previous enumerating list, the R420 - like also the NV40 - start still with an internal AGPx8 interface. In the coming age of PCI express needs ATi naturally also a PCI express diagram chip within the HighEnd range, which the R423 will place. That chip becomes however, then one insured us, a native PCI express x16 interface to have. This is in as much unusual as that is to appear the R423 in principle in the same period as the R420 - in the second quarter. Two 160-Millionen-Transistoren-Chips however more or less in the same period on the mass production to prepare, might be however not only extremely expensive, but also to the personnel capacities of ATi push. To that extent we can explain ourselves this at present only in this kind, when the R420 and R423 are in principle the same chip. Either the R420 is a R423 with settled AGP Bridge, which converts thus the PCI express x16 of signals of the diagram chip into AGPx8 signal for the AGP haven on the Main board, or however - hears themselves improbably on, is however not not impossible - both internal AGPx8 and internal PCI express x16 interface, which is then activated depending upon need by BIOS, have R420 and R423. As this point dissolves in the long run, remains being waiting however. Abseites its is considered against the fact as safe that the R423 represents really only a pure PCI express modification of the R420: There are no technical changes and also not more clock. Only the R480 chip will represent a genuine Refresh to the R420/R423, which will throw however - after the experiences with the last Refresh chips of ATi - probably only more clock into the scale pan, possibly already in the 110nm production technology. The R480 is to begin sometime in the second half-year 2004, in the third quarter is probably thus introduced and in the fourth quarter delivered. And thus we come off the HighEnd chips to the candidates for the Mainstream and LowCost range. AnandTech have to offer here already beautiful technical information, we can besides again the appropriate classification of the chips offer. In the second quarter it will give only once the RV380 to chip, which one can charaktersisieren briefly in such a way: ATi RV380 direct descent of RV350/RV360, invariably internally in principle 75 million transistors, in 130nm with TSMC manufactured 4 Rendering pipelines with ever a texture unit 2 Vertex Shader units DirectX 9,0 architecture, supports Shader 2.0 , DDR1, GDDR2 and GDDR3 supports 128 bits memory interface internal PCI express interface exact clock rates: unknown; according to AnandTech round 500 MHz chip and 400 MHz storing act Presentation: probably still first quarter 2004 Market entrance: second quarter 2004 It is not correct that AnandTech indicate the same improvements on architecture here for the RV380 as for the R420 have. The RV380 is our knowledge after only a further Refresh of the original RV350-Chips (Radeon 9600/pro/cSe) , which already found a first Refresh in the RV360-Chip (Radeon 9600XT). With the RV380 apparent at the chip clock one does not turn, which however with 500 MHz enough is already sufficiently high, but alone the storing act raised, which in view of the unfavorable relationship between chip and storing act with the direct predecessor Radeon 9600XT (500/300 MHz) might be also the best way to give to this chip more performance. Internally the RV380-Chip thereby might be perfectly unchanged to the RV350 and/or RV360, however the native PCI express interface would be new. ATi goes here not the way of nVidia with the PCI express Bridge chip, but presents the chip specially for PCI express again. The reason for this lies in the universe in Wonder maps and their TV abilities: For the use and treatment of in America momentarily heavily in coming HDTV present the backward channel is needed by PCI express x16, which nevertheless 4 GB/sec carry out can - and this independently of the Hinkanal, which likewise 4 GB/ses width exhibits. Because ATi for its universe in Wonder maps wants to use this potential, one needs native PCI express interface and therefore to Bridge chips, how she begins nVidia, a general refusal gave. It will really give one of the R420 to descending Mainstream chip only with the RV410 in the second half-year 2004 (the indication of AnandTech "Q2'04" is surely a write error) . This then also the improvements on the architecture of the R420 into the Mainstream market to carry, wommoeglich opposite the RV380 again more clock bring along and completely possibly already in 110nm manufactured its - which applies to however naturally wait for it. For the LowCost market ATi for the second quarter positioned the RV370 chip, which will be according to AnandTech the first diagram chip in 110nm production technology and can be characterized as follows: ATi RV370 complete (?) new development for the LowCost market unknown number of transistors, in 110nm with TSMC manufactured 4 Rendering pipelines, number of texture units unknown (probably per one) 2 Vertex Shader units DirectX 9,0 architecture, supports Shader 2.0 64/128 bit memory interface, supports DDR1, GDDR2 and GDDR3 internal PCI express interface exact clock rates: unknown; according to AnandTech round 300 MHz storing act Presentation: probably still first quarter 2004 Market entrance: second quarter 2004 The objective of ATi with the RV370-Chip is clear thereby: Finally a competitive chip for the DirectX9 OEM market. So far nVidia in this rough sells quantities of GeForceFX 5200 chips, partly also with only 64 bits memory interface, at prices, with which ATi only with the own DirectX8-Grafikchips Paroli offer can. Problematic way is however calculated this OEM market a market, where it depends much on check list features like "DirectX9 support", with which ATi cannot score in the long run with a Radeon 9200 despite possibly better performance opposite a GeForceFX 5200. Differently around the RV350-Chip is even in its lowest form, the Radeon 9600SE diagram map not to get so cheaply than the fact that ATi the prices, which nVidia for the GeForceFX 5200 makes, could reach. The reason lies here by the majority in the transistor quantity and/or the origin of the chips: The RV350 was now once for the Mainstream segment intended the NV34-Chip (GeForceFX 5200/Ultra & GeForceFX 5500) and weighs nevertheless 75 million transistors, during nVidia specially only for the LowCost segment developed and by various reductions the number of transistors on 45 million to lower could. ATi will hit here in our view same way with the RV370. Surely one could manufacture also simply a RV350 in 110nm, but one will achieve most piercing success with a clear lowering of the number of transistors. Momentarily this point is only, safe of speculation is however the 110nm manufacturing and the adjustment as GeForceFX 5200/5500 competitor to down into the absolute LowCost market. For genuine players such diagram maps should be naturally no view worth, but for ATi as nVidia they also represent the lion's share of the business - and also this field, where in the long run on basis of the high numbers of items set off there profits are erwirtschaftbar. Thus still another one point remains: As already mentions, ATi gave all solutions with Bridge chips a general refusal, since one for the own universe in Wonder maps native PCI express interface necessarily and there temporary solutions with Bridge chips do not lead to the desired result. This refusal refers however also to the past AGPx8 maps of ATi, speaks Radeon 9800/Pro/XT, Radeon 9600/Pro/XT/SE and Radeon 9200/pro/cSe. This does not want to offer ATi in accordance with current planning on PCI to express - in contrast to it nVidia well-known-measured its complete present line places at diagram maps still on PCI express over, before the new chips come. With ATi this may be connected surely also with the fact that one wants to bring new diagram chips in the second quarter in all partial markets into the market, while with nVidia the new Mainstream is to be expected as also LowCost solutions rather only in the third quarter. Nothing the despite surprises this step of ATi something, because the need at the predecessor hardware does not even shrink according to experience over night with the introduction on the market of new diagram maps. Speak: It will quite give users, which for a new PCI express Main board possibly a Radeon 9800 express wish themselves pro on PCI (which could be realized by means of a Bridge chip problem-free) . It remains hoping that the diagram board manufacturers will fill to substitute accordingly here and these by ATi somewhat left open market gap. There itself in the article with nVidia the NV40, NV41, NV45 & CO. Information still another (naturally prospective) nVidia Roadmap finds, wants we also this article with such to the coming ATi Grafikchips to lock. It would pay attention that the individual chips are arranged after their market entrance like already with the nVidia Roadmap after their supposed presentation time and not: After the R4x0/RV4x0-Linie it will continue with ATi with the R500 chip in the year 2005. This will support DirectX10, which covers among other things the support of the Shader 4,0, ATi jumps over the Shader 3,0 thus completely. More details on this chip, which already is in development, is not well-known, just as little relative to the further plans of ATi however yet from R500-Abkoemmlingen for the Mainstream such as LowCost market. |
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* allot of snip snip *
Hehehe, nvidia would just WISH! WE shall se.. we shall see! |
#3
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"Dark Avenger" wrote in message om... * allot of snip snip * Hehehe, nvidia would just WISH! WE shall se.. we shall see! Well as an ATI owner, if Nvidia can produce cards that are the best value for money with great performance I would switch back to them like a shot. ATI's drivers have come a long way but they still have a number of annoyances, especially in games that are not so well known. Also Nvidia is still the king of OpenGL and Linux. ATI's Linux drivers *really* suck. K |
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"NV55" wrote in message
om... Bad news for ATI: Nvidia to 'own' ATI at CeBit / no pixel shader 3.0 support in R420 It looks like R420, while potentially up to 3 times faster(in PS 2.0 and VS 2.0 shaders) than R360, will not be PS 3.0 compliant. If NVIDIA notches up similar PS 2.0 performance, ATI is in trouble. If what you are saying turns out to be true, I'm still not particularly concerned. I know that my current 9800 Pro card will carry me over nicely until the second half of 2005. At that time, I'll see what video card technology in general is like and how the driver and public relations departments of both companies are behaving and base my upgrade decision on those factors. |
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"NV55" wrote in message
om... Bad news for ATI: Nvidia to 'own' ATI at CeBit / no pixel shader 3.0 support in R420 It looks like R420, while potentially up to 3 times faster(in PS 2.0 and VS 2.0 shaders) than R360, will not be PS 3.0 compliant. If NVIDIA notches up similar PS 2.0 performance, ATI is in trouble. Allow me to suggest something. One of the main reasons cited for NV30's lackluster performance was because of NVIDIA's prior focus on the X-box. . ..the engineering resources required for that sapped them for their next generation PC part. ATI's movement of R400 from late last year to the X-Box 2/R500 could have been to pre-empt the fact that they are going to have to divert resources to meet the X-Box deadlines, so rather than take the hit later they are doing it now. In other words, release the next part (R420) with a lower specification that's build primarily upon their existing architecture and therefore requires less engineering time and resources to finish, and where the key inflection point isn't going to be architectural abilities (i.e. Shader 3.0 is an interim spec) but a relatively small change to PCI-Express, while ensuring that the technology isn't lacking after the X-Box is released. In short, the hit that NVIDIA took post-X-Box, ATI are trying to minimize by taking it pre-X-box2. Just a thought. And I don't know NV40 or R420 specs. John |
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In article ,
(K) wrote: Well as an ATI owner, if Nvidia can produce cards that are the best value for money with great performance I would switch back to them like a shot. Agreed, but what I'm hoping for more than raw speed is that they've finally used those 3dfx engineers to generate FSAA to match or beat the V5. I moved to ATI for a combination of speed *with* superior FSAA (which makes a huge difference to flight and driving sims IMO). But I have no loyalty to any hardware supplier... all I want is good kit at a fair price. Andrew McP |
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LOL, But nothing shall use it! PS3. As everyone shall be working on DX10
and PS4 as you have mentioned. Also, ATI shall own nVidia, because they are supplying the GFX for the XBox2 and developers shall be focusing on what it can do, not what nVidia could have done. Why is the XBox2 important? Because most games shall be ported between the XBox2 and PC as it is happening now with the XBox. Just like how Halo was a crap port to the PC, for ATI owners because it was tweaked for nVidia. In the future games ported from the XBox2 to the PC, shall be optimised for ATI. NV55 wrote: Bad news for ATI: Nvidia to 'own' ATI at CeBit / no pixel shader 3.0 support in R420 It looks like R420, while potentially up to 3 times faster(in PS 2.0 and VS 2.0 shaders) than R360, will not be PS 3.0 compliant. If NVIDIA notches up similar PS 2.0 performance, ATI is in trouble. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lastly there is word on the NV40 R420 front. Neither card was shown, but several people who would be familiar with both have said Nvidia is going to come back very strong soon. The word 'own' was bandied about, as in Nvidia will own ATI. Not sure what it means, but CeBit should be a very interesting show. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Babelfish translation of the 'no PS2.0 shaders in R420' article: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ATi R420, R423 & CO. Information 22. February 2004/from Leonidas /page 1 of 2 After we could give at the end of January an already rather complete overview of the coming nVidia Grafikchips, naturally the question was located in the area, which is to be expected 2004 now from ATi for the spring. At the time of the nVidia article the information was however still quite RSR sown to the coming ATi Grafikchips, which left itself whole roughly in three paragraphs to summarize. Remedy created here only an article on the part of AnandTech of last week, in which the plans were stated in detail by ATi already quite. We want in the following predominantly to rely on these information on the part of AnandTech, enweaving thereby however still somewhat own knowledge - and some substantial details have to in addition-carry for the classification of the individual diagram chips, which do not admit to date yet were and from which zumindestens one for more than plentifully Diskussionstoff will provide: -). First still briefly to the "class" of the following information: These are - if not differently characterized - secure information. Both that confirmed with AnandTech said and our additions us by one called from first hand informed source and/or. And thus to the coming main project of ATi, the R420 chip. That one has - one believes the rumors to this case - a plentifully eventful history behind itself. Originally the R400-Chip with Shader 3,0 support the chips of the R3x0-Serie should beerben still in the autumn 2003, but allegedly ATi was not really content in the last year with the all first performance Simulationen of the R400. One can speculate upon it that the Shader was possibly 3,0 performance correct, however the Shader 2,0 performance to expectations here did not correspond. Since however at present and in the near future with DirectX9-Benchmarks the employment of Shader 3,0 takes time still, one would have 3,0 with a beautiful technical toy for Shader, but without the necessary basic performance in the reality with Shader 2,0 stood there. So anyhow a possible explanation, why ATi of the R400-Chip in a still very early Design phase displeased so that one cancelte the project completely. The useful parts of the R400-Designs for the R420 following the R500-Projekt are alleged were taken over - and for the meantime, there one not simply after the R350 (Radeon 9800/pro) nothing new to finally bring could, did not need one a solution which can be realized fast, which above all the error of the R400 - technically point, but with the performance less well - did not begin. One decided in the long run to begin beside the R360-Chip (Radeon 9800XT ) as a further Refresh of the R300-Chips (Radeon 9700/pro ) for temporal bypass, the R420-Projekt. The R420, first also admits Loki "as project", should not thereby not the large technological project like the R400 become, but the proven technology of the preceding chips R300 (Radeon 9700/pro) , R350 (Radeon 9800/pro) and R360 (Radeon 9800XT) in substantially improved way to resume, without beginning thereby however a generally new Design as with the R400. Speak: Primarily clearly more performance, less however new features. Became already early for this the substantial point admits, in which kind ATi wants to realize this: The use of the 130nm production technology. The preceding chips of the R3x0-Linie all together still in 150nm manufactured, in particular 412 MHz chip clock of the Radeon 9800XT (nevertheless 107 million transistors heavily) appear with it as engineer-technical master achievement. By means of the smaller production technology ATi might know the R420 with ease more highly clocks, even if this more transistors bring along than the predecessors from the R3x0-Linie. The other substantial point resulted already indirectly from leading - however naturally only on rumors are based - history over the career/development of the R400 and R420-Chips. Because since the R420 descends generally seen still from the R3x0-Design, it was actually improbable rather that the R420-Chip Shader 3,0 support could offer. To a R3x0-Chip the support for Vertex and pixel Shader 3,0 simply "to to-seal", is not really possible, but the Shader 3,0 to the Shadern 2.0 is too different. Now, this was the theoretical consideration on basis of the rumor Story around R400 and R420. In the future this opinion, the R420 did not turn out could Shader 3,0 support have, however more and more into oblivion - all world including even S3, XGI and Intel talked on its Roadmaps finally about the Shader 3,0 support and each rumor kitchen arranged the R420 generally than "Shader 3,0 chip", so that it became ever more improbable that this like that is not. But far been missing - the original theoretical consideration was nevertheless correct, because: We can confirm free of doubts that the ATi R420-Chip will not offer Shader 3,0 support. Now the renouncement of this feature reaches alone still no performance increase - apart from it that one saves for transistors and so that only on 160 million with the R420 comes contrary to 175 million with nVidia the NV40. behind this renouncement it stands nevertheless a clear intention: ATi says for this that the Shader 3,0 will not have such meaning, as the IT world assumes possibly at present, to insert and that one concentrated therefore with the R420 rather purposefully on the Shader 2,0 performance, instead of with the Shadern 3,0 a beautiful, but rather useless check list feature. One does not refer here also to injustice to the Shader 2.X nVidia of the DirectX9-Chips, which were used only extremely rarely by the play programmers. Besides the compatibility of the R420 and its successors endangered by the renouncement of Shader 3,0 is probably hardly, because already million Shader 2,0 diagram chips were sold in form of the present DirectX9-Beschleuniger, whose user can probably annoy no play programmer in the next years by the requirement of Shader 3,0 capable diagram chips. Besides play programmers set gladly and often on the smallest common denominator - and this reads now once with DirectX9-Chips Shader 2.0. Generally seen one must here thus quite give right to ATi: Presently and also during lifetimes of the R420-Chips simple Shader 3,0 support in plays could be counted probably still at a hand. Plays, which Shader presupposes 3,0 directly, besides into the market will probably only come if the R420 were degradiert long to the LowCost product. Because straight come at present once the first plays with obligation to DirectX8-Hardware into the market, plays with obligation to DirectX9-Hardware (on Shader 2,0 basis) are not even announced our knowledge to. With difficulty it only to arrange this for the users and customers had finally zeroed in itself more or less all on the Shader 3,0 support as the feature of the coming NEXT gene generation of ATi and nVidia. Also the Shader makes itself 3,0 support surely outstanding as check list feature in the OEM market, of the manufacturing firms then gladly also falsely as "DirectX 9,1 support" described (which nonsense is natural, as here already implemented) . Positive way is not sufficient however the support of Shader 2,0 also, in order to come with the Windows XP successor "Longhorn" into the highest possible hardware class ("animal 2 ") to the representation of the new 3D-Oberflaeche von Longhorn, for this Shader 3,0 support is needed. Surely the message, which equips ATi the R420 only with Shader 2,0 support, will provide for a violent discussion. ATi made the strategic decision here to omit the Shader 3,0 support with the R420 in order to concentrate on the performance under Shader 2,0 applications - these are those applications, with which the R420 will be confronted during its lifetimes. From the thing this consideration is correct, but ATi offers thereby naturally also some attack region for nVidia, which will evenly offer the Shader 3,0 support with the NV4x-Linie - and this technological superiority surely also marketing-technically to use will try. Off the surely flashing discussion over sense and nonsense of Shader ATi with the renouncement of these in addition, a clear guideline for the R420 gave 3,0: This chip is to accumulate under Shader 2,0 to the absolute maximum form. The chip will have further 8 Rendering pipelines like its predecessors, but these are to have been substantially improved. Which hides itself exactly behind it, one did not want to say us however yet. Several texture units per pipeline could be (the R3x0-Chips had everything only one texture unit per pipeline) , it could also internal improvements be, which will then probably understand rather only the chip experts by us. Zumindestens is to have energetically worked on the Rendering pipelines, in order to carry the Shader 2,0 performance on a new level. Furthermore the number of Vertex Shader of 4 to 6 was increased, which could give an increase of the Vertex achievement to the R420 as well as the clock increase and the internal improvements over up to 100 per cent . In all other respects this increase of the number of Vertex Shader (the number is not directly comparable in all other respects with the nVidia chips, which a Vertex Shader array uses) is not enough out, in order to explain the 50 million more transistors according to our calculations - here might be in the R420 thus still place for or other surprise, is it mentioned more texture units or however improved anti- Aliasing and/or anisotropic filtering the already. Unfortunately at present still no information is present, which intends to really change and/or improve ATi with the R420 concerning anti- Aliasing and anisotropic filter. Off the performance, which enough is naturally never: -), is the quality of the anti- Aliasings of the current ATi chips surely already quite optimally , while one bilinearen however with the quality, trilinear and anisotropic filter to surely still add can. From it thus momentarily the following can refrained be said in summary about the R420-Chip: ATi R420 generell basierend auf den R3x0-Chips, allerdings mit vielen Verbesserungen an der Shader-Architektur 160 Millionen Transistoren, in 130nm bei TSMC gefertigt 8 Rendering-Pipelines, Anzahl der Textureneinheiten unbekannt 6 Vertex Shader Einheiten DirectX 9.0 Architektur, unterstützt Shader 2.0 256 Bit Speicherinterface, unterstützt DDR1, GDDR2 und GDDR3 internes AGPx8 Interface genaue Taktraten: unbekannt; laut AnandTech runde 500 MHz Chip- und Speichertakt Präsentation: vermutlich noch erstes Quartal 2004 Markteintritt: zweites Quartal 2004 Die aus dem Artikel von AnandTech stammenden Chip- und Speichertakte hören sich erst einmal relativ niedrig an, insbesondere wenn man den NV40 derzeit auf 500 bis 600 MHz Chiptakt und 600 bis 800 MHz Speichertakt taxiert. Allerdings wären das gegenüber dem R360-Chip (Radeon 9800XT) immerhin auch schon 21 Prozent mehr Chip- und ganze 37 Prozent mehr Speichertakt, während nVidia bei angenommenen 550/600 MHz gegenüber dem NV38 (GeForceFX 5950 Ultra) takttechnisch "nur" um 16 bzw. 26 Prozent zulegt. Zudem kann man davon ausgehen, daß beim Speichertakt definitiv noch Spielraum nach oben ist, immerhin hat Samsung kürzlich die Massenproduktion von GDDR3 mit bis zu 800 MHz Taktfrequenz begonnen. Auch beim Chiptakt sollte aufgrund der 130nm Fertigung eigentlich noch etwas mehr möglich sein - in diesem Punkt erscheinen uns die genannten Taktraten doch etwas konservativ angegeben. Wir können uns für unseren Teil also durchaus vorstellen, daß ATi eine mögliche Pro-Version des R420 auch höher taktet als jene 500/500 MHz, welche AnandTech genannt haben. ATi R420, R423 & CO. Information 22. February 2004/from Leonidas /page 2 of 2 As evident from previous enumerating list, the R420 - like also the NV40 - start still with an internal AGPx8 interface. In the coming age of PCI express needs ATi naturally also a PCI express diagram chip within the HighEnd range, which the R423 will place. That chip becomes however, then one insured us, a native PCI express x16 interface to have. This is in as much unusual as that is to appear the R423 in principle in the same period as the R420 - in the second quarter. Two 160-Millionen-Transistoren-Chips however more or less in the same period on the mass production to prepare, might be however not only extremely expensive, but also to the personnel capacities of ATi push. To that extent we can explain ourselves this at present only in this kind, when the R420 and R423 are in principle the same chip. Either the R420 is a R423 with settled AGP Bridge, which converts thus the PCI express x16 of signals of the diagram chip into AGPx8 signal for the AGP haven on the Main board, or however - hears themselves improbably on, is however not not impossible - both internal AGPx8 and internal PCI express x16 interface, which is then activated depending upon need by BIOS, have R420 and R423. As this point dissolves in the long run, remains being waiting however. Abseites its is considered against the fact as safe that the R423 represents really only a pure PCI express modification of the R420: There are no technical changes and also not more clock. Only the R480 chip will represent a genuine Refresh to the R420/R423, which will throw however - after the experiences with the last Refresh chips of ATi - probably only more clock into the scale pan, possibly already in the 110nm production technology. The R480 is to begin sometime in the second half-year 2004, in the third quarter is probably thus introduced and in the fourth quarter delivered. And thus we come off the HighEnd chips to the candidates for the Mainstream and LowCost range. AnandTech have to offer here already beautiful technical information, we can besides again the appropriate classification of the chips offer. In the second quarter it will give only once the RV380 to chip, which one can charaktersisieren briefly in such a way: ATi RV380 direct descent of RV350/RV360, invariably internally in principle 75 million transistors, in 130nm with TSMC manufactured 4 Rendering pipelines with ever a texture unit 2 Vertex Shader units DirectX 9,0 architecture, supports Shader 2.0 , DDR1, GDDR2 and GDDR3 supports 128 bits memory interface internal PCI express interface exact clock rates: unknown; according to AnandTech round 500 MHz chip and 400 MHz storing act Presentation: probably still first quarter 2004 Market entrance: second quarter 2004 It is not correct that AnandTech indicate the same improvements on architecture here for the RV380 as for the R420 have. The RV380 is our knowledge after only a further Refresh of the original RV350-Chips (Radeon 9600/pro/cSe) , which already found a first Refresh in the RV360-Chip (Radeon 9600XT). With the RV380 apparent at the chip clock one does not turn, which however with 500 MHz enough is already sufficiently high, but alone the storing act raised, which in view of the unfavorable relationship between chip and storing act with the direct predecessor Radeon 9600XT (500/300 MHz) might be also the best way to give to this chip more performance. Internally the RV380-Chip thereby might be perfectly unchanged to the RV350 and/or RV360, however the native PCI express interface would be new. ATi goes here not the way of nVidia with the PCI express Bridge chip, but presents the chip specially for PCI express again. The reason for this lies in the universe in Wonder maps and their TV abilities: For the use and treatment of in America momentarily heavily in coming HDTV present the backward channel is needed by PCI express x16, which nevertheless 4 GB/sec carry out can - and this independently of the Hinkanal, which likewise 4 GB/ses width exhibits. Because ATi for its universe in Wonder maps wants to use this potential, one needs native PCI express interface and therefore to Bridge chips, how she begins nVidia, a general refusal gave. It will really give one of the R420 to descending Mainstream chip only with the RV410 in the second half-year 2004 (the indication of AnandTech "Q2'04" is surely a write error) . This then also the improvements on the architecture of the R420 into the Mainstream market to carry, wommoeglich opposite the RV380 again more clock bring along and completely possibly already in 110nm manufactured its - which applies to however naturally wait for it. For the LowCost market ATi for the second quarter positioned the RV370 chip, which will be according to AnandTech the first diagram chip in 110nm production technology and can be characterized as follows: ATi RV370 complete (?) new development for the LowCost market unknown number of transistors, in 110nm with TSMC manufactured 4 Rendering pipelines, number of texture units unknown (probably per one) 2 Vertex Shader units DirectX 9,0 architecture, supports Shader 2.0 64/128 bit memory interface, supports DDR1, GDDR2 and GDDR3 internal PCI express interface exact clock rates: unknown; according to AnandTech round 300 MHz storing act Presentation: probably still first quarter 2004 Market entrance: second quarter 2004 The objective of ATi with the RV370-Chip is clear thereby: Finally a competitive chip for the DirectX9 OEM market. So far nVidia in this rough sells quantities of GeForceFX 5200 chips, partly also with only 64 bits memory interface, at prices, with which ATi only with the own DirectX8-Grafikchips Paroli offer can. Problematic way is however calculated this OEM market a market, where it depends much on check list features like "DirectX9 support", with which ATi cannot score in the long run with a Radeon 9200 despite possibly better performance opposite a GeForceFX 5200. Differently around the RV350-Chip is even in its lowest form, the Radeon 9600SE diagram map not to get so cheaply than the fact that ATi the prices, which nVidia for the GeForceFX 5200 makes, could reach. The reason lies here by the majority in the transistor quantity and/or the origin of the chips: The RV350 was now once for the Mainstream segment intended the NV34-Chip (GeForceFX 5200/Ultra & GeForceFX 5500) and weighs nevertheless 75 million transistors, during nVidia specially only for the LowCost segment developed and by various reductions the number of transistors on 45 million to lower could. ATi will hit here in our view same way with the RV370. Surely one could manufacture also simply a RV350 in 110nm, but one will achieve most piercing success with a clear lowering of the number of transistors. Momentarily this point is only, safe of speculation is however the 110nm manufacturing and the adjustment as GeForceFX 5200/5500 competitor to down into the absolute LowCost market. For genuine players such diagram maps should be naturally no view worth, but for ATi as nVidia they also represent the lion's share of the business - and also this field, where in the long run on basis of the high numbers of items set off there profits are erwirtschaftbar. Thus still another one point remains: As already mentions, ATi gave all solutions with Bridge chips a general refusal, since one for the own universe in Wonder maps native PCI express interface necessarily and there temporary solutions with Bridge chips do not lead to the desired result. This refusal refers however also to the past AGPx8 maps of ATi, speaks Radeon 9800/Pro/XT, Radeon 9600/Pro/XT/SE and Radeon 9200/pro/cSe. This does not want to offer ATi in accordance with current planning on PCI to express - in contrast to it nVidia well-known-measured its complete present line places at diagram maps still on PCI express over, before the new chips come. With ATi this may be connected surely also with the fact that one wants to bring new diagram chips in the second quarter in all partial markets into the market, while with nVidia the new Mainstream is to be expected as also LowCost solutions rather only in the third quarter. Nothing the despite surprises this step of ATi something, because the need at the predecessor hardware does not even shrink according to experience over night with the introduction on the market of new diagram maps. Speak: It will quite give users, which for a new PCI express Main board possibly a Radeon 9800 express wish themselves pro on PCI (which could be realized by means of a Bridge chip problem-free) . It remains hoping that the diagram board manufacturers will fill to substitute accordingly here and these by ATi somewhat left open market gap. There itself in the article with nVidia the NV40, NV41, NV45 & CO. Information still another (naturally prospective) nVidia Roadmap finds, wants we also this article with such to the coming ATi Grafikchips to lock. It would pay attention that the individual chips are arranged after their market entrance like already with the nVidia Roadmap after their supposed presentation time and not: After the R4x0/RV4x0-Linie it will continue with ATi with the R500 chip in the year 2005. This will support DirectX10, which covers among other things the support of the Shader 4,0, ATi jumps over the Shader 3,0 thus completely. More details on this chip, which already is in development, is not well-known, just as little relative to the further plans of ATi however yet from R500-Abkoemmlingen for the Mainstream such as LowCost market. |
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"Minotaur" wrote in message ... LOL, But nothing shall use it! PS3. As everyone shall be working on DX10 and PS4 as you have mentioned. Also, ATI shall own nVidia, because they are supplying the GFX for the XBox2 and developers shall be focusing on what it can do, not what nVidia could have done. Why is the XBox2 important? Because most games shall be ported between the XBox2 and PC as it is happening now with the XBox. LMAO your posts get funnier and funner with each one I read. Ports notwithstanding, console gaming and PC gaming are two completely different experiences, and consoles will never beat PCs for screen resolution. As for X-Box, Microsoft's little overpriced half-computer, half-console, it was and still is the biggest joke in electronic entertainment since the Intellivision. It only has decent market share in the USA, the global market spits on it, and will be happy to see Microsoft give up on it when the new machine fails to corner the console market once again. Just like how Halo was a crap port to the PC, for ATI owners because it was tweaked for nVidia. In the future games ported from the XBox2 to the PC, shall be optimised for ATI. Ported games suck, plain and simple, consoles games and PC games just don't make the transition well, optimised or not. DD \ |
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Good news for consumers!!
If Nvidia makes a better care, hopefully it will force ATI to top Nvidia. Nothing like good old fashioned competition that will ultimately benefit the consumer. Todd "NV55" wrote in message om... Bad news for ATI: Nvidia to 'own' ATI at CeBit / no pixel shader 3.0 support in R420 It looks like R420, while potentially up to 3 times faster(in PS 2.0 and VS 2.0 shaders) than R360, will not be PS 3.0 compliant. If NVIDIA notches up similar PS 2.0 performance, ATI is in trouble. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Lastly there is word on the NV40 R420 front. Neither card was shown, but several people who would be familiar with both have said Nvidia is going to come back very strong soon. The word 'own' was bandied about, as in Nvidia will own ATI. Not sure what it means, but CeBit should be a very interesting show. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Babelfish translation of the 'no PS2.0 shaders in R420' article: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ATi R420, R423 & CO. Information 22. February 2004/from Leonidas /page 1 of 2 After we could give at the end of January an already rather complete overview of the coming nVidia Grafikchips, naturally the question was located in the area, which is to be expected 2004 now from ATi for the spring. At the time of the nVidia article the information was however still quite RSR sown to the coming ATi Grafikchips, which left itself whole roughly in three paragraphs to summarize. Remedy created here only an article on the part of AnandTech of last week, in which the plans were stated in detail by ATi already quite. We want in the following predominantly to rely on these information on the part of AnandTech, enweaving thereby however still somewhat own knowledge - and some substantial details have to in addition-carry for the classification of the individual diagram chips, which do not admit to date yet were and from which zumindestens one for more than plentifully Diskussionstoff will provide: -). First still briefly to the "class" of the following information: These are - if not differently characterized - secure information. Both that confirmed with AnandTech said and our additions us by one called from first hand informed source and/or. And thus to the coming main project of ATi, the R420 chip. That one has - one believes the rumors to this case - a plentifully eventful history behind itself. Originally the R400-Chip with Shader 3,0 support the chips of the R3x0-Serie should beerben still in the autumn 2003, but allegedly ATi was not really content in the last year with the all first performance Simulationen of the R400. One can speculate upon it that the Shader was possibly 3,0 performance correct, however the Shader 2,0 performance to expectations here did not correspond. Since however at present and in the near future with DirectX9-Benchmarks the employment of Shader 3,0 takes time still, one would have 3,0 with a beautiful technical toy for Shader, but without the necessary basic performance in the reality with Shader 2,0 stood there. So anyhow a possible explanation, why ATi of the R400-Chip in a still very early Design phase displeased so that one cancelte the project completely. The useful parts of the R400-Designs for the R420 following the R500-Projekt are alleged were taken over - and for the meantime, there one not simply after the R350 (Radeon 9800/pro) nothing new to finally bring could, did not need one a solution which can be realized fast, which above all the error of the R400 - technically point, but with the performance less well - did not begin. One decided in the long run to begin beside the R360-Chip (Radeon 9800XT ) as a further Refresh of the R300-Chips (Radeon 9700/pro ) for temporal bypass, the R420-Projekt. The R420, first also admits Loki "as project", should not thereby not the large technological project like the R400 become, but the proven technology of the preceding chips R300 (Radeon 9700/pro) , R350 (Radeon 9800/pro) and R360 (Radeon 9800XT) in substantially improved way to resume, without beginning thereby however a generally new Design as with the R400. Speak: Primarily clearly more performance, less however new features. Became already early for this the substantial point admits, in which kind ATi wants to realize this: The use of the 130nm production technology. The preceding chips of the R3x0-Linie all together still in 150nm manufactured, in particular 412 MHz chip clock of the Radeon 9800XT (nevertheless 107 million transistors heavily) appear with it as engineer-technical master achievement. By means of the smaller production technology ATi might know the R420 with ease more highly clocks, even if this more transistors bring along than the predecessors from the R3x0-Linie. The other substantial point resulted already indirectly from leading - however naturally only on rumors are based - history over the career/development of the R400 and R420-Chips. Because since the R420 descends generally seen still from the R3x0-Design, it was actually improbable rather that the R420-Chip Shader 3,0 support could offer. To a R3x0-Chip the support for Vertex and pixel Shader 3,0 simply "to to-seal", is not really possible, but the Shader 3,0 to the Shadern 2.0 is too different. Now, this was the theoretical consideration on basis of the rumor Story around R400 and R420. In the future this opinion, the R420 did not turn out could Shader 3,0 support have, however more and more into oblivion - all world including even S3, XGI and Intel talked on its Roadmaps finally about the Shader 3,0 support and each rumor kitchen arranged the R420 generally than "Shader 3,0 chip", so that it became ever more improbable that this like that is not. But far been missing - the original theoretical consideration was nevertheless correct, because: We can confirm free of doubts that the ATi R420-Chip will not offer Shader 3,0 support. Now the renouncement of this feature reaches alone still no performance increase - apart from it that one saves for transistors and so that only on 160 million with the R420 comes contrary to 175 million with nVidia the NV40. behind this renouncement it stands nevertheless a clear intention: ATi says for this that the Shader 3,0 will not have such meaning, as the IT world assumes possibly at present, to insert and that one concentrated therefore with the R420 rather purposefully on the Shader 2,0 performance, instead of with the Shadern 3,0 a beautiful, but rather useless check list feature. One does not refer here also to injustice to the Shader 2.X nVidia of the DirectX9-Chips, which were used only extremely rarely by the play programmers. Besides the compatibility of the R420 and its successors endangered by the renouncement of Shader 3,0 is probably hardly, because already million Shader 2,0 diagram chips were sold in form of the present DirectX9-Beschleuniger, whose user can probably annoy no play programmer in the next years by the requirement of Shader 3,0 capable diagram chips. Besides play programmers set gladly and often on the smallest common denominator - and this reads now once with DirectX9-Chips Shader 2.0. Generally seen one must here thus quite give right to ATi: Presently and also during lifetimes of the R420-Chips simple Shader 3,0 support in plays could be counted probably still at a hand. Plays, which Shader presupposes 3,0 directly, besides into the market will probably only come if the R420 were degradiert long to the LowCost product. Because straight come at present once the first plays with obligation to DirectX8-Hardware into the market, plays with obligation to DirectX9-Hardware (on Shader 2,0 basis) are not even announced our knowledge to. With difficulty it only to arrange this for the users and customers had finally zeroed in itself more or less all on the Shader 3,0 support as the feature of the coming NEXT gene generation of ATi and nVidia. Also the Shader makes itself 3,0 support surely outstanding as check list feature in the OEM market, of the manufacturing firms then gladly also falsely as "DirectX 9,1 support" described (which nonsense is natural, as here already implemented) . Positive way is not sufficient however the support of Shader 2,0 also, in order to come with the Windows XP successor "Longhorn" into the highest possible hardware class ("animal 2 ") to the representation of the new 3D-Oberflaeche von Longhorn, for this Shader 3,0 support is needed. Surely the message, which equips ATi the R420 only with Shader 2,0 support, will provide for a violent discussion. ATi made the strategic decision here to omit the Shader 3,0 support with the R420 in order to concentrate on the performance under Shader 2,0 applications - these are those applications, with which the R420 will be confronted during its lifetimes. From the thing this consideration is correct, but ATi offers thereby naturally also some attack region for nVidia, which will evenly offer the Shader 3,0 support with the NV4x-Linie - and this technological superiority surely also marketing-technically to use will try. Off the surely flashing discussion over sense and nonsense of Shader ATi with the renouncement of these in addition, a clear guideline for the R420 gave 3,0: This chip is to accumulate under Shader 2,0 to the absolute maximum form. The chip will have further 8 Rendering pipelines like its predecessors, but these are to have been substantially improved. Which hides itself exactly behind it, one did not want to say us however yet. Several texture units per pipeline could be (the R3x0-Chips had everything only one texture unit per pipeline) , it could also internal improvements be, which will then probably understand rather only the chip experts by us. Zumindestens is to have energetically worked on the Rendering pipelines, in order to carry the Shader 2,0 performance on a new level. Furthermore the number of Vertex Shader of 4 to 6 was increased, which could give an increase of the Vertex achievement to the R420 as well as the clock increase and the internal improvements over up to 100 per cent . In all other respects this increase of the number of Vertex Shader (the number is not directly comparable in all other respects with the nVidia chips, which a Vertex Shader array uses) is not enough out, in order to explain the 50 million more transistors according to our calculations - here might be in the R420 thus still place for or other surprise, is it mentioned more texture units or however improved anti- Aliasing and/or anisotropic filtering the already. Unfortunately at present still no information is present, which intends to really change and/or improve ATi with the R420 concerning anti- Aliasing and anisotropic filter. Off the performance, which enough is naturally never: -), is the quality of the anti- Aliasings of the current ATi chips surely already quite optimally , while one bilinearen however with the quality, trilinear and anisotropic filter to surely still add can. From it thus momentarily the following can refrained be said in summary about the R420-Chip: ATi R420 generell basierend auf den R3x0-Chips, allerdings mit vielen Verbesserungen an der Shader-Architektur 160 Millionen Transistoren, in 130nm bei TSMC gefertigt 8 Rendering-Pipelines, Anzahl der Textureneinheiten unbekannt 6 Vertex Shader Einheiten DirectX 9.0 Architektur, unterstützt Shader 2.0 256 Bit Speicherinterface, unterstützt DDR1, GDDR2 und GDDR3 internes AGPx8 Interface genaue Taktraten: unbekannt; laut AnandTech runde 500 MHz Chip- und Speichertakt Präsentation: vermutlich noch erstes Quartal 2004 Markteintritt: zweites Quartal 2004 Die aus dem Artikel von AnandTech stammenden Chip- und Speichertakte hören sich erst einmal relativ niedrig an, insbesondere wenn man den NV40 derzeit auf 500 bis 600 MHz Chiptakt und 600 bis 800 MHz Speichertakt taxiert. Allerdings wären das gegenüber dem R360-Chip (Radeon 9800XT) immerhin auch schon 21 Prozent mehr Chip- und ganze 37 Prozent mehr Speichertakt, während nVidia bei angenommenen 550/600 MHz gegenüber dem NV38 (GeForceFX 5950 Ultra) takttechnisch "nur" um 16 bzw. 26 Prozent zulegt. Zudem kann man davon ausgehen, daß beim Speichertakt definitiv noch Spielraum nach oben ist, immerhin hat Samsung kürzlich die Massenproduktion von GDDR3 mit bis zu 800 MHz Taktfrequenz begonnen. Auch beim Chiptakt sollte aufgrund der 130nm Fertigung eigentlich noch etwas mehr möglich sein - in diesem Punkt erscheinen uns die genannten Taktraten doch etwas konservativ angegeben. Wir können uns für unseren Teil also durchaus vorstellen, daß ATi eine mögliche Pro-Version des R420 auch höher taktet als jene 500/500 MHz, welche AnandTech genannt haben. ATi R420, R423 & CO. Information 22. February 2004/from Leonidas /page 2 of 2 As evident from previous enumerating list, the R420 - like also the NV40 - start still with an internal AGPx8 interface. In the coming age of PCI express needs ATi naturally also a PCI express diagram chip within the HighEnd range, which the R423 will place. That chip becomes however, then one insured us, a native PCI express x16 interface to have. This is in as much unusual as that is to appear the R423 in principle in the same period as the R420 - in the second quarter. Two 160-Millionen-Transistoren-Chips however more or less in the same period on the mass production to prepare, might be however not only extremely expensive, but also to the personnel capacities of ATi push. To that extent we can explain ourselves this at present only in this kind, when the R420 and R423 are in principle the same chip. Either the R420 is a R423 with settled AGP Bridge, which converts thus the PCI express x16 of signals of the diagram chip into AGPx8 signal for the AGP haven on the Main board, or however - hears themselves improbably on, is however not not impossible - both internal AGPx8 and internal PCI express x16 interface, which is then activated depending upon need by BIOS, have R420 and R423. As this point dissolves in the long run, remains being waiting however. Abseites its is considered against the fact as safe that the R423 represents really only a pure PCI express modification of the R420: There are no technical changes and also not more clock. Only the R480 chip will represent a genuine Refresh to the R420/R423, which will throw however - after the experiences with the last Refresh chips of ATi - probably only more clock into the scale pan, possibly already in the 110nm production technology. The R480 is to begin sometime in the second half-year 2004, in the third quarter is probably thus introduced and in the fourth quarter delivered. And thus we come off the HighEnd chips to the candidates for the Mainstream and LowCost range. AnandTech have to offer here already beautiful technical information, we can besides again the appropriate classification of the chips offer. In the second quarter it will give only once the RV380 to chip, which one can charaktersisieren briefly in such a way: ATi RV380 direct descent of RV350/RV360, invariably internally in principle 75 million transistors, in 130nm with TSMC manufactured 4 Rendering pipelines with ever a texture unit 2 Vertex Shader units DirectX 9,0 architecture, supports Shader 2.0 , DDR1, GDDR2 and GDDR3 supports 128 bits memory interface internal PCI express interface exact clock rates: unknown; according to AnandTech round 500 MHz chip and 400 MHz storing act Presentation: probably still first quarter 2004 Market entrance: second quarter 2004 It is not correct that AnandTech indicate the same improvements on architecture here for the RV380 as for the R420 have. The RV380 is our knowledge after only a further Refresh of the original RV350-Chips (Radeon 9600/pro/cSe) , which already found a first Refresh in the RV360-Chip (Radeon 9600XT). With the RV380 apparent at the chip clock one does not turn, which however with 500 MHz enough is already sufficiently high, but alone the storing act raised, which in view of the unfavorable relationship between chip and storing act with the direct predecessor Radeon 9600XT (500/300 MHz) might be also the best way to give to this chip more performance. Internally the RV380-Chip thereby might be perfectly unchanged to the RV350 and/or RV360, however the native PCI express interface would be new. ATi goes here not the way of nVidia with the PCI express Bridge chip, but presents the chip specially for PCI express again. The reason for this lies in the universe in Wonder maps and their TV abilities: For the use and treatment of in America momentarily heavily in coming HDTV present the backward channel is needed by PCI express x16, which nevertheless 4 GB/sec carry out can - and this independently of the Hinkanal, which likewise 4 GB/ses width exhibits. Because ATi for its universe in Wonder maps wants to use this potential, one needs native PCI express interface and therefore to Bridge chips, how she begins nVidia, a general refusal gave. It will really give one of the R420 to descending Mainstream chip only with the RV410 in the second half-year 2004 (the indication of AnandTech "Q2'04" is surely a write error) . This then also the improvements on the architecture of the R420 into the Mainstream market to carry, wommoeglich opposite the RV380 again more clock bring along and completely possibly already in 110nm manufactured its - which applies to however naturally wait for it. For the LowCost market ATi for the second quarter positioned the RV370 chip, which will be according to AnandTech the first diagram chip in 110nm production technology and can be characterized as follows: ATi RV370 complete (?) new development for the LowCost market unknown number of transistors, in 110nm with TSMC manufactured 4 Rendering pipelines, number of texture units unknown (probably per one) 2 Vertex Shader units DirectX 9,0 architecture, supports Shader 2.0 64/128 bit memory interface, supports DDR1, GDDR2 and GDDR3 internal PCI express interface exact clock rates: unknown; according to AnandTech round 300 MHz storing act Presentation: probably still first quarter 2004 Market entrance: second quarter 2004 The objective of ATi with the RV370-Chip is clear thereby: Finally a competitive chip for the DirectX9 OEM market. So far nVidia in this rough sells quantities of GeForceFX 5200 chips, partly also with only 64 bits memory interface, at prices, with which ATi only with the own DirectX8-Grafikchips Paroli offer can. Problematic way is however calculated this OEM market a market, where it depends much on check list features like "DirectX9 support", with which ATi cannot score in the long run with a Radeon 9200 despite possibly better performance opposite a GeForceFX 5200. Differently around the RV350-Chip is even in its lowest form, the Radeon 9600SE diagram map not to get so cheaply than the fact that ATi the prices, which nVidia for the GeForceFX 5200 makes, could reach. The reason lies here by the majority in the transistor quantity and/or the origin of the chips: The RV350 was now once for the Mainstream segment intended the NV34-Chip (GeForceFX 5200/Ultra & GeForceFX 5500) and weighs nevertheless 75 million transistors, during nVidia specially only for the LowCost segment developed and by various reductions the number of transistors on 45 million to lower could. ATi will hit here in our view same way with the RV370. Surely one could manufacture also simply a RV350 in 110nm, but one will achieve most piercing success with a clear lowering of the number of transistors. Momentarily this point is only, safe of speculation is however the 110nm manufacturing and the adjustment as GeForceFX 5200/5500 competitor to down into the absolute LowCost market. For genuine players such diagram maps should be naturally no view worth, but for ATi as nVidia they also represent the lion's share of the business - and also this field, where in the long run on basis of the high numbers of items set off there profits are erwirtschaftbar. Thus still another one point remains: As already mentions, ATi gave all solutions with Bridge chips a general refusal, since one for the own universe in Wonder maps native PCI express interface necessarily and there temporary solutions with Bridge chips do not lead to the desired result. This refusal refers however also to the past AGPx8 maps of ATi, speaks Radeon 9800/Pro/XT, Radeon 9600/Pro/XT/SE and Radeon 9200/pro/cSe. This does not want to offer ATi in accordance with current planning on PCI to express - in contrast to it nVidia well-known-measured its complete present line places at diagram maps still on PCI express over, before the new chips come. With ATi this may be connected surely also with the fact that one wants to bring new diagram chips in the second quarter in all partial markets into the market, while with nVidia the new Mainstream is to be expected as also LowCost solutions rather only in the third quarter. Nothing the despite surprises this step of ATi something, because the need at the predecessor hardware does not even shrink according to experience over night with the introduction on the market of new diagram maps. Speak: It will quite give users, which for a new PCI express Main board possibly a Radeon 9800 express wish themselves pro on PCI (which could be realized by means of a Bridge chip problem-free) . It remains hoping that the diagram board manufacturers will fill to substitute accordingly here and these by ATi somewhat left open market gap. There itself in the article with nVidia the NV40, NV41, NV45 & CO. Information still another (naturally prospective) nVidia Roadmap finds, wants we also this article with such to the coming ATi Grafikchips to lock. It would pay attention that the individual chips are arranged after their market entrance like already with the nVidia Roadmap after their supposed presentation time and not: After the R4x0/RV4x0-Linie it will continue with ATi with the R500 chip in the year 2005. This will support DirectX10, which covers among other things the support of the Shader 4,0, ATi jumps over the Shader 3,0 thus completely. More details on this chip, which already is in development, is not well-known, just as little relative to the further plans of ATi however yet from R500-Abkoemmlingen for the Mainstream such as LowCost market. |
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