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#11
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Richard Freeman wrote:
Wrong the reason I know Telco Surge protection is no defense against near or direct strikes is that I have seen Time and Time again surge protection literally blown off the distribution frame (where it has been installed) and equipment on those lines dead following near or direct strikes. How would he know? He does not have any. If he has no protectors, then how would Richard know that properly sized and earthed surge protectors are effective? how big then I have certainly seen 1 Joule MOVs destroyed - yes with short Earth leads to the mains/Switchboard earth stake So where does Richard find this 1 joule MOV? Even tiny MOVs costing less than $0.05 are 30 joules. Radio Shack sells a small MOV that is 70 joules. And yet neither would be sufficient for 'whole house' protection. Richard says he saw a 1 joule MOV destroyed because he invents this number. Where does he find a 1 joule MOV? He does not even know basic numbers. Even undersized power strips start on the order of 300 joules! Richard Freeman posts "1 joule" because he was challenged to post a number. So he had to invent that number. He argues incessantly without technical knowledge. He demonstrates no knowledge of electricity beyond installing PA systems. Using junk science reasoning, he must avoid or invent his numbers - such as a mythical 1 joule MOV. If Richard had technical knowledge, then he knew even 100 joules was grossly undersized. But his (mythical) surge protector was damaged by a surge. Of course. 1 joule surge protector would be grossly undersized - quickly destroyed - and therefore useless. No wonder he claims surge protectors don't work. He tries to stop a flood with a sponge! Did his mythical protector have a short connection to earth? Of course not. This earthing requirement was completely new to him. Suddenly that mythical 1 joule MOV is now provided: with short Earth leads to the mains/Switchboard earth stake. Why would he install a 1 joule surge protector with a short connection to earth when he insists that all surge protectors are useless? When Richard finally posts a number - the 1 joule protector - it is a number that does not even exist! Now he invents a short connection to earth ground. But the deception continues. To confuse others, Richard posts half facts: Lightning does vary in strength but is Typically between 1,000,000,000 and 10,000,000,000 Joules And where is most all that energy dissipated? To deceive, Richard forget to mention all of what Dr Uman says. In his book, Dr Uman then continues: Most of the energy available to the lightning is converted along the lightning channel to thunder, heat, light, and radio waves, leaving only a fraction available at the channel base for immediate use or storage. Maybe Richard would now like to post how many joules actually exist at the strike location? Posted previously was this challenge: Then Richard can tell us which component isolates modem from AC mains surges? He responds: It is a very simple device in use since before World War 1 called a Transformer another very simple device which has been in use for well over 100 years is called a capacitor Well then all we need do is install transformers and capacitors on all incoming wires. Then never suffer surge damage? However Richard tell us that nothing can protect from direct lighting strikes. He cannot have it both ways. Either transformers and capacitors mean no surge damage - OR - transformers and capacitor, like surge protectors, are not effective protection from the direct strike. Reality: those devices have a breakdown voltage. They become short circuits at excessive surge voltages. As posted earlier, all appliances contain effective surge protection. What do they use? Galvanic isolation (transformers) and capacitors. Effective protection IF the surge is earthed before it can enter the building. Effective internal protection if the building uses 'whole house' protectors and a single point earth ground. In the meantime, that modem has a direct connection to one AC main wire - in direct contradiction to Richard's post. But then Richard never did the multimeter testing. That AC main wire is why modems tend to be easily damaged by AC main surges. AC main surge that was not earthed using a 'whole house' protector. Protection using transformers exists in appliances and in that modem. Protection that is overwhelmed if surges are not earthed using 'whole house' protection. But again, these are old and well proven concepts. Concepts that Franc Zabkar has also demonstrated. Richard Freeman has become a sounding board so that lurkers can learn about effective and ineffective surge protectors. So that lurkers can learn how modems may be damaged from surges that entered on AC mains - the "No Dialtone Detected" message. But Richard Freeman serves no more purpose to this thread. He invents rather than first learns his facts. That mythical 1 joule MOV being a classic example. The misrepresentation of what Dr Uman posts being another example. The transformer and capacitor that would provide surge protection - protection that 'whole house' surge protectors and single point earth ground cannot - according to Richard. Modem protection means that all incoming utility wires - especially AC electric - must have an earth ground connection before entering the building. Modem damaged because AC electric had no properly installed 'whole house' protector. A surge protector being only as effective as its earth ground. |
#12
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Yes. Lawn mowers can cut more than grass and toes. But
then we humans are assigned the job of inspecting and correcting those earth grounds. There is no other way to verify a properly earthed home. Only a human can find and correct a missing earth ground. No reasonably priced test equipment can locate or correct a missing earth ground. The most powerful tool for finding a defective earth ground is the human eye. Usually the telco installs that NID properly. But installation assumes the building provided an effective earthing system when phone was installed. In simple terms, the house must meet or exceed post 1990 NEC earthing requirements. That would provide a minimally acceptable single point ground necessary for 'telco provided' surge protector (that is inside NID). But many older homes don't even have earthing that meets older code as JAD notes. Wiring inside the house is mostly irrelevant to an effective 'whole house' protector. After all, a surge must be earthed before it can enter the building - regardless of how interior wiring is installed. For example, two wire receptacles or three wire? Makes no different. The surge is earthed at service entrance - at single point earth ground - regardless of what types of outlets and wiring are inside. However, if utilities enter at different locations and / or use separate earth grounds, then this wiring can adversely affect the household surge protection 'system'. The incoming wiring - not interior wiring - is important for effective protection. JAD wrote: Those effective 'whole house' protectors make a connection from each phone wire to earth ground. Surge on a NA phone line is earthed before it can enter the building. One comment here...this also depends on the 'IN' house wiring being done correctly or is undamaged.....in older homes where the lines have been butchered this does not hold true... especially on the NID on the side of the house, seen them knocked off with lawnmowers etc,,....just hanging there by the wires, ground ripped off. |
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"w_tom" decided to spread more crap by writing in message ... Richard Freeman wrote: Wrong the reason I know Telco Surge protection is no defense against near or direct strikes is that I have seen Time and Time again surge protection literally blown off the distribution frame (where it has been installed) and equipment on those lines dead following near or direct strikes. How would he know? He does not have any. If he has no protectors, then how would Richard know that properly sized and earthed surge protectors are effective? how big then I have certainly seen 1 Joule MOVs destroyed - yes with short Earth leads to the mains/Switchboard earth stake So where does Richard find this 1 joule MOV? Even tiny MOVs costing less than $0.05 are 30 joules. Radio Shack sells a small MOV that is 70 joules. And yet neither would be sufficient for 'whole house' protection. Richard says he saw a 1 joule MOV destroyed because he invents this number. Where does he find a 1 joule MOV? He does not even know basic numbers. Even undersized power strips start on the order of 300 joules! Richard Freeman posts "1 joule" because he was challenged to post a number. So he had to invent that number. He argues incessantly without technical knowledge. He demonstrates no knowledge of electricity beyond installing PA systems. Using junk science reasoning, he must avoid or invent his numbers - such as a mythical 1 joule MOV. If Richard had technical knowledge, then he knew even 100 joules was grossly undersized. But his (mythical) surge protector was damaged by a surge. Of course. 1 joule surge protector would be grossly undersized - quickly destroyed - and therefore useless. No wonder he claims surge protectors don't work. He tries to stop a flood with a sponge! Did his mythical protector have a short connection to earth? Of course not. This earthing requirement was completely new to him. Suddenly that mythical 1 joule MOV is now provided: with short Earth leads to the mains/Switchboard earth stake. oh gee look at that the efficacy of the earth ( a point I have picked w_tom upon time and time again) now gets mentioned Why would he install a 1 joule surge protector with a short connection to earth when he insists that all surge protectors are useless? When Richard finally posts a number - the 1 joule protector - it is a number that does not even exist! Now he invents a short connection to earth ground. But the deception continues. oh dear ! I made a typo and left a K out what a shame! it should have read a 1K Joule protector so the only defense w_tom has is to pick on Typos. Was it an obvious typo ? hell yes ! but w_tom never let facts stand in his way ... To confuse others, Richard posts half facts: Lightning does vary in strength but is Typically between 1,000,000,000 and 10,000,000,000 Joules And where is most all that energy dissipated? To deceive, Richard forget to mention all of what Dr Uman says. In his book, Dr Uman then continues: Most of the energy available to the lightning is converted along the lightning channel to thunder, heat, light, and radio waves, leaving only a fraction available at the channel base for immediate use or storage. Maybe Richard would now like to post how many joules actually exist at the strike location? ahh look at that ! By posting the energy in a Lightning strike ( I was responding to his lie that : " Lightning strikes typically are not high energy events" at this point not even discussing what form the energy was) I forced w_tom to do a bit of basic research instead of crapping on with his usual fallacies and half truths ... unfortunately for him the answer to his question still makes his claim that " Lightning strikes typically are not high energy events" look the blatent lie it is. As a Lightning strike typically runs to 10,000,000 Joules of electrical energy .... to quote from the same source - note that this is a typical strike and they can be both bigger and smaller. But then w_tom lives on blatent lies and misrepresenting the Truth and in fact for clarity let me re quote w_toms lie in it fullness and my response again : Firstly w_tom Lied thusly : Lightning strikes typically are not high energy events. Many are such low energy events as to not even leave indication. Lightning is a high power event; not high energy event. Richard should enlighten us with numbers of his high energy lightning strike. Therein lies another problem with his speculations. He provides no numbers to go along with his no experience. to which I replied accurately : I have given the Numbers before but w_tom has ignored them as they are too inconvenient to his arguments but once more for the dummy : Lightning does vary in strength but is Typically between 1,000,000,000 and 10,000,000,000 Joules (thanks Professor Martin A. Uman,Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at the University of Florida, Gainsville) so you see I posted accurately but with a bit of judicous snipping w_tom managed to misrepresent what I said ( I see he has stopped top posting but his snipping is still getting the better of him) Posted previously was this challenge: Then Richard can tell us which component isolates modem from AC mains surges? Note he talks about AC mains surges here not Lightning He responds: It is a very simple device in use since before World War 1 called a Transformer another very simple device which has been in use for well over 100 years is called a capacitor Well then all we need do is install transformers and capacitors on all incoming wires. Then never suffer surge damage? This was in fact a popular effort to provide Lightning protection (not 100% effective however) in Telephony systems However Richard tell us that nothing can protect from direct lighting strikes. He cannot have it both ways. Either transformers and capacitors mean no surge damage - OR - transformers and capacitor, like surge protectors, are not effective protection from the direct strike. oops he twists and turns now he claims he was talking about Lightning only !! btw most Transformer cores Saturate when driven at excessive voltages effectively providing protection against over voltage surges - of course these do have limitations such as not providing complete protection against lightning but then again w_tom was talking about surges here rather than specifying Lightning. Reality: those devices have a breakdown voltage. They become short circuits at excessive surge voltages. As posted earlier, all appliances contain effective surge protection. What do they use? Galvanic isolation (transformers) and capacitors. Effective protection IF the surge is earthed before it can enter the building. Effective internal protection if the building uses 'whole house' protectors and a single point earth ground. which still fail to protect against direct strikes In the meantime, that modem has a direct connection to one AC main wire - in direct contradiction to Richard's post. But then Richard never did the multimeter testing. Ok I have now run a multimeter between a modem and the Pins on the power plug it measures effectively open circuit - no surprise here as they are double Insulated but then again w_tom has trouble understanding simple concepts like double insulation, Lightning etc Ok now a challange to w_tom please name a brand and model of modem ( name a bunch of them in fact if it is so common) on sale today which have a direct connection between AC mains and the internal ICs. In fact name some that are not double insulated (this will probably be the point I discover another American weirdness like unearthed toasters but it certainly holds true in Australia and England and I cannot perceive why it would be different in the USA). That AC main wire is why modems tend to be easily damaged by AC main surges. AC main surge that was not earthed using a 'whole house' protector. This is just a blatent lie from w_tom to try to support his other Lie that Lightning damage typically comes in via AC mains let me try once more for the dummies : MODEMS DO HAVE DIRECT CONNECTIONS INSIDE THEM BETWEEN THE ACTIVE OR THE NEUTRAL TO ANY PINS OF ANY IC the only possible exception here would be one using a switch mode power supply but of the half dozen or so I have here all a powered off plugpacks or internal linear power supplies. some of the Older modems that I used to service did have earth connections to the mains earth but modern modems tend to be double insulated ( all the new ones I have seen are but if I say all w_tom will find an exception to the rule) and any way MEN mains earth is about the best earth you are going to get without spending a whole lot of money Protection using transformers exists in appliances and in that modem. Protection that is overwhelmed if surges are not earthed using 'whole house' protection. But again, these are old and well proven concepts. Concepts that Franc Zabkar has also demonstrated. Richard Freeman has become a sounding board so that lurkers can learn about effective and ineffective surge protectors. So that lurkers can learn how modems may be damaged from surges that entered on AC mains - the "No Dialtone Detected" message. But Richard Freeman serves no more purpose to this thread. No I serve the purpose of pointing out the errors of w_toms fantasy lets spell it out in simple language : Lightning damage to modems typically enters the modem from the unearthed phone line and leaves heading for MEN earth He invents rather than first learns his facts. That mythical 1 joule MOV being a classic example. yep I admit a typo I left the K out but then again it must have given w_tom the thrill of his life - something I was actually wrong about ! The misrepresentation of what Dr Uman posts being another example. The transformer and capacitor that would provide surge protection - Transformers typically do provide surge/over voltage protection - through core saturation but will not provide protection against direct Lightning strikes. They do however provide isolation for the internal circuitry from AC mains but then again w_tom is to ignorant to even try his own test -that of measuring between the electronics of a typical modern modem and the AC pins with a multi meter - the 9V or so does not break down the insulation in the plugpack as w_tom would have us believe. Further more I never ever ever said that this provided adequate protection against Lightning - Since he is so behind the eight ball WRT to the principles of Electrical basics and in fact this whole argument he has to invent fallacies then claim I made them to give him something to argue against. protection that 'whole house' surge protectors and single point earth ground cannot - according to Richard. Yep thats right in a direct/near strike current comes from all sorts of sources : Aerials, alarm wiring, Phone lines, building frames etc etc etc AC mains protection is not any use at all. Modem protection means that all incoming utility wires - especially AC electric - must have an earth ground connection before entering the building. Modem damaged because AC electric had no properly installed 'whole house' protector. A surge protector being only as effective as its earth ground. wrong as always w_tom has trouble with facts seen time and time again by anyone in the Telco industry - equipment damaged by Lightning entry from phone lines. Regards Richard Freeman |
#14
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:15:36 +1000, "Richard Freeman"
put finger to keyboard and composed: Secondly the Phone line is not earthed back at the exchange it is in fact floating above ground potential - It needs to be as it is a Balanced Circuit. See my other post. Firstly, my friend's neighbour lost his electrical distribution box, so this confirms that the strike came in on the mains. Well Maybe and I have not said it never comes in via Mains just that if it does it is so uncommon that I have not seen it. I have seen it twice at the same dwelling, with similar results. On the second occasion the datapump of an internal 33.6K ISA Rockwell modem was damaged, but the only other problem with the entire PC was a faulty IRQ3 signal on the ISA bus. That's two PCs, neither of which sustained any damage other than a faulty modem DSP/DAA. So the damage was to the modem both times! this was likely to have come via AC mains because ? .... other mains connected appliances were damaged also. I notice that the one thing that distinguishes a PC from most, if not all the other equipment is the fact that it has an earth conductor. What if this relatively small earth conductor allows the PC to float to the strike potential? Wouldn't the full potential then appear across the modem's DAA rather than the main part of the PC? The earth conducter to a PC is going to still going to have a resistance of a fraction of an ohm against over 1000's of ohms to earth via the Phone line Regards Richard Freeman I wonder if there is some forensic or metallurgical method of determining the direction of current flow in a lightning strike. why ? just think about it compare the two earths - MEN AC Mains earth = fraction of an Ohm to Earth - Directly connected to earth stakes at not one but Several Places with a minimum wire size of 2.5mm square (O.k with typically 2 m of 1.5mm square cable for the IEC power lead). Phone Line = floating above Earth potential with a Maximum wire size of 0.28mm Square not connected to an earth anywhere. Which sounds like the better earth to you ? If you where Lightning where would you head ? It is not rocket science it is just fairly basic electrical theory - very simple physics. Dont be mislead by the wilfully ignorant especially those who seem to have a vested interest in selling 'whole house protection'. Is it valid to analyse lightning as a pure DC event? AFAICS, 1000A x 1 ohm gives 1kV, so even low ohm values could give rise to damaging potentials. If this potential appears at the earth terminal of any appliance, then surely that appliance would sustain damage, unless there is no exit path for the current, in which cause the appliance would temporarily float to this surge potential. This observation goes to the heart of my PC question. If the entire PC, by virtue of its numerous earth connections, floats to the strike potential, then surely only the DAA would see the full potential difference between the surge value on the host side and that of the distant earth on the line side??? Wouldn't this explain the damage I observed in the two PCs I have previously alluded to? - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email. |
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:11:05 +1000, "Richard Freeman"
put finger to keyboard and composed: Telephone exchanges have very extensive earthing systems - this is true All metal work in the exchange is tied to earth Exchanges are usually fed by underground cables and enter through an earthed metal sheath the underground conduits near the exchange are earthed back to the exchange earth If I disconnect all phone appliances from the socket and measure the voltages on each pin with respect to a GPO earth, I get 1.2VAC, -0.3VDC on one pin and .3VAC, -53.6VDC on the other. Doesn't this suggest that the positive terminal of the battery is connected to exchange ground, as is depicted in my "Understanding Telephone Electronics" primer (Radioshack p/n 62-1388, 1983)? Third, if Richard knew basics of surge protection, then he would know that DC resistance is irrelevant. Wire impedance - not resistance - is the important number. perhaps w_tom can explain how a single strand 0.28mm square wire is going to exhibit a lower impedance than a multi-strand 2.5mm square wire Does lightning follow simple DC principles, or does it have an RF-like characteristic with an accompanying skin effect? If the latter, then that short earth conductor will have a significant impedance, and the potential developed across it could be substantial, given that the strike current could be of the order of 1000s of amps, as you state elsewhere. oops it does not not under any circumstance maybe if w_tom knew basic Electrical theory and basic Physics he would not make these sorts of errors. I quoted DC resistance as it is readily measurable in the examples I used the impedance will be higher I admit but the imedance of the Mains wiring is still going to be a fraction of the impedance of the phone line. Note here that w_tom top posts so that people cannot take the original statement in context and therefore see how ridiculous w_toms argument is If he knew his 'stuff', then he would identify the component that keeps an AC mains surge from finding earth ground via a modem. It only takes a multimeter. A direct connection exists between some pins on modem ICs and one AC electric wire. It does ???? Which modem IC pins would they be ??? An internal modem is connected to the PC's ground, and therefore AC ground, via all the ICs on the host side, eg the DSP and controller. An external modem makes the same connection via pin 5/7 ot the DB9/DB25 RS232 interface. thats funny all ( I have found 6 so far ) the modems I have here (and a number are made in america ) are double insulated - THERE IS NO DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN ANY PINS ON ANY IC IN THE MODEM AND AC MAINS ! This is true only if the modem is not part of, or connected to a computer. w_tom is merely showing his ignorance again - Modems nowadays are built for an international market and the easiest way of dealing with all the power variations is to power the modem from a (double insulated) plugpack even older modems which I used to Repair (that right component level repair) which did have metal cases had no direct connection between active or Neutral and the internal Electronics they did however have a mains earth connected to the internal Electronics and Lightning damage was typically between the Line interface and the Mains earth with other damage scattered around the modem depending on how close the strike was. Modern modems that are double insulated are effectively earthed via the Serial cable back to the PC (every PC I have seen has an insulated case - with the exception of Laptops) which is why damage can and often does include damage to the DSP in the modem and sometimes the serial interface in the PC. I'm confused. Aren't you confirming w_tom's point? A direct connection that makes modem damage from AC electric possible. So where is this 'isolator' that keeps an AC mains surge from finding modem? Richard tells us that AC mains cannot connect a surge through modem. Then Richard can tell us which component isolates modem from AC mains surges? It is a very simple device in use since before World War 1 called a Transformer another very simple device which has been in use for well over 100 years is called a capacitor A transformer cannot isolate a lightning strike, or severe surge. How else do you explain the failures I observed on both the primary and secondary sides of the various PSUs in the equipment alluded to in my initial post? And how do you expect a capacitor to isolate or protect anything? If it's an AC surge, a capacitor will appear as a short circuit. If it's a rapid DC surge, then both terminals of the capacitor will initially rise to the peak level of the surge. AFAICS, a capacitor is only useful when connected across the mains where it can shunt differential spikes. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email. |
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:11:19 -0400, w_tom put
finger to keyboard and composed: But again, these are old and well proven concepts. Concepts that Franc Zabkar has also demonstrated. Please allow me to say that I know very little, if anything, about the mechanisms involved in a lightning strike. I am merely an interested observer who has many more questions than answers. The limit of my experience in this area is in assessing and repairing the resultant damage to equipment. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email. |
#17
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"Franc Zabkar" wrote in message ... On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:15:36 +1000, "Richard Freeman" put finger to keyboard and composed: MEN AC Mains earth = fraction of an Ohm to Earth - Directly connected to earth stakes at not one but Several Places with a minimum wire size of 2.5mm square (O.k with typically 2 m of 1.5mm square cable for the IEC power lead). Phone Line = floating above Earth potential with a Maximum wire size of 0.28mm Square not connected to an earth anywhere. Which sounds like the better earth to you ? If you where Lightning where would you head ? It is not rocket science it is just fairly basic electrical theory - very simple physics. Dont be mislead by the wilfully ignorant especially those who seem to have a vested interest in selling 'whole house protection'. Is it valid to analyse lightning as a pure DC event? Nope it is Pulsed DC and fourier analysis of a pulse reveals all sorts of components. AFAICS, 1000A x 1 ohm gives 1kV, so even low ohm values could give rise to damaging potentials. If this potential appears at the earth terminal of any appliance, then surely that appliance would sustain damage, unless there is no exit path for the current, in which cause the appliance would temporarily float to this surge potential. Yep ! This observation goes to the heart of my PC question. If the entire PC, by virtue of its numerous earth connections, floats to the strike potential, then surely only the DAA would see the full potential difference between the surge value on the host side and that of the distant earth on the line side??? Wouldn't this explain the damage I observed in the two PCs I have previously alluded to? Quite possibly however it does not explain the damage to the other equipment in the house and besides my point still stands the MEN earth system and Earth wires provide a much better Earth than that provided by the Phone line / phone cabling and it is more logical to assume in the case of modem/PC damage that the surge went the other way. Especially if you had been confronted as often as I have Surge protection blown out of the Krone blocks they were plugged into and Lightning damage on Data lines which were terminated at each end with line isolation Transformers. In the last 17 Years I have been in the Data comms industry I have seen too much Lightning damage to reach any other conclusions especially when careful analysis of the damage matches Basic Electrical Theory and the laws of Physics. Regards Richard freeman |
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"Franc Zabkar" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:11:05 +1000, "Richard Freeman" put finger to keyboard and composed: Telephone exchanges have very extensive earthing systems - this is true All metal work in the exchange is tied to earth Exchanges are usually fed by underground cables and enter through an earthed metal sheath the underground conduits near the exchange are earthed back to the exchange earth If I disconnect all phone appliances from the socket and measure the voltages on each pin with respect to a GPO earth, I get 1.2VAC, -0.3VDC on one pin and .3VAC, -53.6VDC on the other. Doesn't this suggest that the positive terminal of the battery is connected to exchange ground, as is depicted in my "Understanding Telephone Electronics" primer (Radioshack p/n 62-1388, 1983)? The Power feed for a phone line is connected via a feed bridge with a DC resistance of a couple of Thousand Ohms further more the traditional Feed bridge is made up of Inductors - in other words it has a very high impedance - this can hardly be considered a connection to Earth adequate to even think about shunting a Lightning strike to earth - even before we start thinking about the series impedance of the phone line. Try measuring the current between the Earth and each leg of the phone line it is typically a maximum of 20-30mA and then try measuring the resistance to earth on the 0.3V leg - bear in mind that the impedance of this earth will be higher (not lower) than the DC resistance. Third, if Richard knew basics of surge protection, then he would know that DC resistance is irrelevant. Wire impedance - not resistance - is the important number. perhaps w_tom can explain how a single strand 0.28mm square wire is going to exhibit a lower impedance than a multi-strand 2.5mm square wire Does lightning follow simple DC principles, or does it have an RF-like characteristic with an accompanying skin effect? If the latter, then that short earth conductor will have a significant impedance, and the potential developed across it could be substantial, given that the strike current could be of the order of 1000s of amps, as you state elsewhere. Lightning is effectively Pulsed DC and hence it contains all sorts of Harmonics in fact with such high currents involved (peaking at in excess of 4500 Amps) even earth resistance becomes significant but I digress. The question I asked was how multi strand 2.5mm square wire is going to show a higher impedance than 0.28mm single strand (typical 0.6mm telepone wire 0.4 mm is also often used in Line cables) - it does not, no matter how you do the sums. oops it does not not under any circumstance maybe if w_tom knew basic Electrical theory and basic Physics he would not make these sorts of errors. I quoted DC resistance as it is readily measurable in the examples I used the impedance will be higher I admit but the imedance of the Mains wiring is still going to be a fraction of the impedance of the phone line. Note here that w_tom top posts so that people cannot take the original statement in context and therefore see how ridiculous w_toms argument is If he knew his 'stuff', then he would identify the component that keeps an AC mains surge from finding earth ground via a modem. It only takes a multimeter. A direct connection exists between some pins on modem ICs and one AC electric wire. It does ???? Which modem IC pins would they be ??? An internal modem is connected to the PC's ground, and therefore AC ground, via all the ICs on the host side, eg the DSP and controller. An external modem makes the same connection via pin 5/7 ot the DB9/DB25 RS232 interface. This is true and I have never denied that the modem ends up being connected to AC mains earth via the PC. But w_tom has claimed that ICs in the modem are connected directly to an AC electric wire - not an AC Earth wire - and this is the point I am pulling him up on. thats funny all ( I have found 6 so far ) the modems I have here (and a number are made in america ) are double insulated - THERE IS NO DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN ANY PINS ON ANY IC IN THE MODEM AND AC MAINS ! This is true only if the modem is not part of, or connected to a computer. Again this is true but that was not the claim that w_tom made, he stated - "A direct connection exists between some pins on modem ICs and one AC electric wire." this is ludicrous to say the least. The MEN earth is tied to Earth at the Switchboard at each House it enters and this earth is connected together via typically 60 Amp multi strand Cable which is then connected to the equipment via 2.5mm multi strand cable - this provides a far better earth than a single Earth stake as a Single earth stake in the event of a direct strike will go to typically 50,000V above earth potential this is known as EPR or GPR. If you were a Lightning strike hitting power lines which path would you take? (assuming you dont just follow a flashover down the insulator) Through a modem to a relatively high impedance earth through relatively high impedance wiring. or through the Mains Distribution system via (compared to the phone line) relatively low impedance cabling to an earthing system distributed over a number of earth stakes. On the other hand if you were a Lightning strike hitting a phone line where would you go ? w_tom is merely showing his ignorance again - Modems nowadays are built for an international market and the easiest way of dealing with all the power variations is to power the modem from a (double insulated) plugpack even older modems which I used to Repair (that right component level repair) which did have metal cases had no direct connection between active or Neutral and the internal Electronics they did however have a mains earth connected to the internal Electronics and Lightning damage was typically between the Line interface and the Mains earth with other damage scattered around the modem depending on how close the strike was. Modern modems that are double insulated are effectively earthed via the Serial cable back to the PC (every PC I have seen has an insulated case - with the exception of Laptops) which is why damage can and often does include damage to the DSP in the modem and sometimes the serial interface in the PC. I'm confused. Aren't you confirming w_tom's point? Nope as his point was : "It only takes a multimeter. A direct connection exists between some pins on modem ICs and one AC electric wire." Firstly he used the term "AC Electric wire" and said nothing about an Earth also he claims the connection is in the modem itself he does not mention the interface or the PC it is plugged into. BTW I noticed anothe typo I made I should have said "(every PC I have seen has an earthed case - with the exception of Laptops)" w-tom obviously missed it. w_tom has probably heard this statement made by someone who was referring to the modem getting an earth via the serial interface and with his very limited understanding of the issue under discussion has taken it completely out of context and is merely highlighting his ignorance on the subject of Lightning and Lightning damage. A direct connection that makes modem damage from AC electric possible. So where is this 'isolator' that keeps an AC mains surge from finding modem? Richard tells us that AC mains cannot connect a surge through modem. Then Richard can tell us which component isolates modem from AC mains surges? It is a very simple device in use since before World War 1 called a Transformer another very simple device which has been in use for well over 100 years is called a capacitor A transformer cannot isolate a lightning strike, or severe surge. w_tom was talking about surges he did not mention either Lightning strikes or severe Surges in this question. How else do you explain the failures I observed on both the primary and secondary sides of the various PSUs in the equipment alluded to in my initial post? I had reassesed my original reading through the body count you gave. It seems the house in question most likely received a very close or Direct Lightning strike resulting in current flowing through the wiring and metal work (including gutters etc) to the handiest earth point - which would have been that provided by the MEN mains - in many instances through the PSUs of equipment plugged into the Mains. A picture of a direct strike in action BTW can be found at : http://wvlightning.com/gscenic.html There is a bit of religous guff but have a look through the Pictures and speculate as to how w_toms MOV would have offered 'Complete protection' to equipment in that house. This claim of 'Complete protection' from a single 1KJ MOV on the AC mains btw is what I object to most from the lies that w_tom keeps spouting. And how do you expect a capacitor to isolate or protect anything? If it's an AC surge, a capacitor will appear as a short circuit. If it's a rapid DC surge, then both terminals of the capacitor will initially rise to the peak level of the surge. AFAICS, a capacitor is only useful when connected across the mains where it can shunt differential spikes. aha ! you obviously have a much better understanding of Electronics than w_tom whos postings merely serve to highlight his ignorance of basic Physics and Basic electrical theory and practise. You are right of course and the Cap will not provide protection in the case of extreme surges but then again I read w_toms question to refer to surges in general. Hold that thought however and lets see what w_tom comes up with :-). Regards Richard Freeman |
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Ohh Bugger I seem to have scared off w_tom ..... Just when he was getting so
amusing too |
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Richard Freeman wrote:
Ohh Bugger I seem to have scared off w_tom ..... Just when he was getting so amusing too Just mention cheap ATX power supplies, and he'll be back lugging his 3 1/2 digit multi-meter! Maybe a 1 Joule surge supressor as well. Virg Wall -- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. ~ Carl Edward Sagan ~ |
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