Disaster With Rounded IDE Cables

"Paul" wrote:
A round cable must be fabricated, so that the interference
is no worse than it would be in a perfectly flat cable. I've
never heard of a standard for round cables, so there is nothing
to spell out good practice for the companies who make them.
(Although, if they have any engineers working for them,
they should know about this problem.)


Here are some decent "round" cables:
http://svc.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-cables.html

They are not rolled up ribbon cables.

*TimDaniels*

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:06:01 -0700, SAMF2000 thoughtfully wrote:

I never thought Replacing my Ribbon cables would cause my entire
system to stop booting. Seemed like an easy task...heck I just replaced my
CPU With no headaches ... Well After Replacing the Ribbon cables with IDE
Rounded cables And getting some "No 80 wire connecter "
error, I Decided to replace the old ribbon cables. Well to my
amazement same error. I then stated to try the jumpers on the MB. Then I
went into the Configuration and set the defaults... still same error. I
had to completely format the drive, reinstall windows and everything to
get my computer back. So my question: How can just replacing a cable cause
this much trouble and what could I have done short of reinstalling and
starting over? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sam

Really odd! I'd bet you didn't connect the cables correctly but then
reformatting the HD fixed the problem? Doesn't sound like a
IDE cable problem if you could reinstall windows.

So when did you see the "no 80 wire connector" messages? As bios boots
or as windows boots?

"SAMF2000" wrote in message
ups.com...
I never thought Replacing my Ribbon cables would cause my entire
system to stop booting. Seemed like an easy task...heck I just replaced
my CPU With no headaches ... Well After Replacing the Ribbon cables
with IDE Rounded cables And getting some "No 80 wire connecter "
error, I Decided to replace the old ribbon cables. Well to my
amazement same error. I then stated to try the jumpers on the MB. Then
I went into the Configuration and set the defaults... still same error.
I had to completely format the drive, reinstall windows and everything
to get my computer back. So my question: How can just replacing a cable
cause this much trouble and what could I have done short of
reinstalling and starting over? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Sam

No way would I have reformatted the drive when the problem was almost
certainly nothing to do with the drive or the cables.
While some rounded cables are a bit dodgy, there are plenty that aren't and
as you had the same problem with ordinary cables as well I would guess you
did something else to the PC in the process of fitting the cables.
Unfortunate, yes, but it sometimes happens.

SteveH

You can plug those in backwards sometimes as i did. wouldnt boot then
changed it around booted.

"SteveH" wrote in message
.uk...
"SAMF2000" wrote in message
ups.com...
I never thought Replacing my Ribbon cables would cause my entire
system to stop booting. Seemed like an easy task...heck I just replaced
my CPU With no headaches ... Well After Replacing the Ribbon cables
with IDE Rounded cables And getting some "No 80 wire connecter "
error, I Decided to replace the old ribbon cables. Well to my
amazement same error. I then stated to try the jumpers on the MB. Then
I went into the Configuration and set the defaults... still same error.
I had to completely format the drive, reinstall windows and everything
to get my computer back. So my question: How can just replacing a cable
cause this much trouble and what could I have done short of
reinstalling and starting over? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Sam

No way would I have reformatted the drive when the problem was almost
certainly nothing to do with the drive or the cables.
While some rounded cables are a bit dodgy, there are plenty that aren't
and as you had the same problem with ordinary cables as well I would guess
you did something else to the PC in the process of fitting the cables.
Unfortunate, yes, but it sometimes happens.

SteveH

I've seen this. What happens is the round
cable puts a lot of stress on the end wires
at the connector, and they pull loose, or
short to each other .. only takes 2 or 3 to
do this. Then, either the drive won't boot,
or if it does, you get a world of "dirty writes"
to the drive, and your system is kaput!
That is why you got the same error when
you restored the flat cables. I use round
cables, but I always make sure I tie-wrap
them so the ends of the cables are not
pulled loose, Generally a U at the end
will be good enough to prevent this stress.
Be sure to check for this before you install
a round cable. Also, I make sure the cable
wrap ends a couple of inches from the
connector. I just take nippers and cut it
back, then check for pulled wires. Also,
note that HP and a few others put a flat
belt on the cable just behind the connector
..... for good reason. Dirty writes are hard
to troubleshoot. I like the round cables
that never were a flat belt .. rather a bunch
of single or paired wires with a few tie-
wraps. You can tell they are not stressed.

johns

"johns" wrote:
Also, note that HP and a few others put a flat
belt on the cable just behind the connector
.... for good reason.

All the round cables that I've bought from SVC.com have
had pull tabs on the connectors to keep stress off the wires
(although they're not shown in the photos). When unplugging
the cable, you just pull from side to side on the plastic tabs
tp work the plug out of its socket.

*TimDaniels*

jaster wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:06:01 -0700, SAMF2000 thoughtfully wrote:

I never thought Replacing my Ribbon cables would cause my entire
system to stop booting. Seemed like an easy task...heck I just replaced my
CPU With no headaches ... Well After Replacing the Ribbon cables with IDE
Rounded cables And getting some "No 80 wire connecter "
error, I Decided to replace the old ribbon cables. Well to my
amazement same error. I then stated to try the jumpers on the MB. Then I
went into the Configuration and set the defaults... still same error. I
had to completely format the drive, reinstall windows and everything to
get my computer back. So my question: How can just replacing a cable cause
this much trouble and what could I have done short of reinstalling and
starting over? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sam

Really odd! I'd bet you didn't connect the cables correctly but then
reformatting the HD fixed the problem? Doesn't sound like a
IDE cable problem if you could reinstall windows.

So when did you see the "no 80 wire connector" messages? As bios boots
or as windows boots?

I Saw that message at bios boot. never got into windows. At the bios
boot the drives showed up on the bios boot screen before the error
message. Luckily I had the Windows 98 boot disk/cd and the Windows XP
Upgrade CD . I thought the most dangerous part to mess with was the CPU
But that was a piece of cake if your just careful of the fan being
connected and heatsink on correctly. Taking this as a learning lesson
now .still reinstalling software.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:59:55 -0700, SAMF2000 thoughtfully wrote:


jaster wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:06:01 -0700, SAMF2000 thoughtfully wrote:

I never thought Replacing my Ribbon cables would cause my entire
system to stop booting. Seemed like an easy task...heck I just
replaced my CPU With no headaches ... Well After Replacing the Ribbon
cables with IDE Rounded cables And getting some "No 80 wire connecter
"
error, I Decided to replace the old ribbon cables. Well to my
amazement same error. I then stated to try the jumpers on the MB.
Then I went into the Configuration and set the defaults... still same
error. I had to completely format the drive, reinstall windows and
everything to get my computer back. So my question: How can just
replacing a cable cause this much trouble and what could I have done
short of reinstalling and starting over? Any help would be greatly
appreciated. Sam

Really odd! I'd bet you didn't connect the cables correctly but then
reformatting the HD fixed the problem? Doesn't sound like a IDE cable
problem if you could reinstall windows.

So when did you see the "no 80 wire connector" messages? As bios
boots or as windows boots?

I Saw that message at bios boot. never got into windows. At the bios
boot the drives showed up on the bios boot screen before the error
message. Luckily I had the Windows 98 boot disk/cd and the Windows XP
Upgrade CD . I thought the most dangerous part to mess with was the CPU
But that was a piece of cake if your just careful of the fan being
connected and heatsink on correctly. Taking this as a learning lesson
now .still reinstalling software.

I think you had a rare boot virus, if you saw the drives on the bios
screen before XP boot. IMO, if the cable was bad or not connected
properly you would have gotten beeps or missing HDs from the bios splash.

jaster wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:59:55 -0700, SAMF2000 thoughtfully wrote:


jaster wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:06:01 -0700, SAMF2000 thoughtfully wrote:

I never thought Replacing my Ribbon cables would cause my entire
system to stop booting. Seemed like an easy task...heck I just
replaced my CPU With no headaches ... Well After Replacing the
Ribbon cables with IDE Rounded cables And getting some "No 80 wire
connecter "
error, I Decided to replace the old ribbon cables. Well to my
amazement same error. I then stated to try the jumpers on the MB.
Then I went into the Configuration and set the defaults... still
same error. I had to completely format the drive, reinstall
windows and everything to get my computer back. So my question:
How can just replacing a cable cause this much trouble and what
could I have done short of reinstalling and starting over? Any
help would be greatly appreciated. Sam

Really odd! I'd bet you didn't connect the cables correctly but
then reformatting the HD fixed the problem? Doesn't sound like a
IDE cable problem if you could reinstall windows.

So when did you see the "no 80 wire connector" messages? As bios
boots or as windows boots?

I Saw that message at bios boot. never got into windows. At the
bios boot the drives showed up on the bios boot screen before the
error message. Luckily I had the Windows 98 boot disk/cd and the
Windows XP Upgrade CD . I thought the most dangerous part to mess
with was the CPU But that was a piece of cake if your just careful
of the fan being connected and heatsink on correctly. Taking this as
a learning lesson now .still reinstalling software.

I think you had a rare boot virus, if you saw the drives on the bios
screen before XP boot. IMO, if the cable was bad or not connected
properly you would have gotten beeps or missing HDs from the bios splash.

I think its more likely a bad round cable that damaged the data
on the drive. Thats why a reformat and reinstall worked fine
and why it showed up in the bios fine but wouldnt boot.

Timothy Daniels wrote:

Sheeesh.... "round" cables are NOT rolled up ribbon cables.
In the case of 80-wire round cables, each data wire is
twisted together with a ground wire, putting the data wire
in constant adjacency with its own ground wire.- just like with
spec'd IDE ribbon cables. How well this works is an open
question, but I, for one, have never had a problem with them
in the 3-4 years that I've used them with my (3) ATA/133 HDs.

*TimDaniels*


The questions I'd want an answer to, is:

1) Are round cables standardized ? Can I be assured of a
good construction technique, no matter where I buy them ?
Yes, I see adverts for twisted pair cables, I also included
a link to a unique flat cabling technique to reduce cable
bulk.

2) Have round cables, ones with good construction techniques,
been rated for characteristic impedance ? Do they behave
differently than their simple ribbon counterparts, assuming
the crosstalk problem is solved ?

Some amount of work went into getting ribbon cables to work,
and a twisted pair cable is not exactly equal.

(Signal integrity for IDE - early version)
http://www.t13.org/technical/d97128r0.pdf

(Later version, starting at PDF page 189.
Also PDF page 46 has a cabling spec.)
http://www.t13.org/docs2004/d1532v2r4b-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf

If there are standards, and someone has created a standard
that works well with the series damping to be found on
IDE controllers, I wouldn't have a problem with that. When
round cables were introduced, they were anything but
standardized.

I wouldn't want to recommend a solution, where you have to
buy three or four different products, and play with them to
see which one works.

Paul