Why was Intel a no-show on No Execute?

Robert Redelmeier wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Grumble wrote:

I think you've just killed the performance of recursive functions.

I don't think so. For a recursive function there are many
calls, possibly flooding out the hw return stack. But every
call has a return, and that address _is_ correct on both the
hw and memory stacks.

You don't call any other function in your recursive functions? :-)

88h IC Return stack hit
89h IC Return stack overflow

It would be interesting to take, say, SPEC CPU2000, and count
the number of overflows for each benchmark. I might try.

Excellent! I do not suggest trapping out overflows.
They're to occur on deep recursion which should not contain
evil getch() calls. Just trap misses.

As far as I can tell, and with the exception of recursive
functions which call no other function, RAS overflow will
cause a RET misprediction.

Benny Amorsen wrote:
"YK" == Yousuf Khan writes:

That was Minix. Linux has always been for 386 and later machines
only.

I think the ELKS people will be saddened to hear that.

So, it never surprises me to find Linux being ported to do something or
another at some point in time. I guess the question these days to ask is
whether there is something Linux hasn't been ported to? Commodore 64? Apple
II?

Yousuf Khan

Robert Redelmeier wrote:
True in a literal sense.

But `c` compilers have this habit of allocating local variable
space on the stack. So when `char input[80];` is coded in a
routine, ESP gets decreased by 80 and that array is sitting
just below the return address!

I don't think it's _required_ by any standard that local vars are
allocated on the stack, but it sure makes memory managment easy.

AFAIK, only global vars and large malloc()s are put on the heap.

Still the only place where code can be executed from is the CS segment. You
cannot write anything into the CS segment once you're running, so even if
they screw up the stack somehow, then worst that's going to happen is that
the program will stop working and have to be shut down by the OS. Which is
basically what NX on the page tables does these days.

Segments would've fully protected everything.

Yousuf Khan

In comp.arch Yousuf Khan wrote:
Robert Redelmeier wrote:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Yousuf Khan
wrote:
How's an attacker to do that, when the the code, the stack and the
heap don't even share the same memory addresses?

Easy. Overwrite the stack with crafted input to an unrestricted
input call (getch() is a frequent culprit). This is the basic
buffer overflow.

In the location for the return address (where EBP is usually
pointing), put in a return address that points to a suitably
dangerous part of the existing code. Like an `exec` syscall.
Above this return address, put in data to make that syscall
nefarious.

Nope, won't work. Segmentation would protect it completely. There is no way
for data written to the heap to touch the data in the stack. Stack segment

But procedure local variables (including arrays) don't live in the heap,
they live on the stack.

and data segment are separate. It's like as if the stack had its own
container, the code has its own, and the data heap its own. What happens in
one container won't even reach the other containers.

Doesn't matter. All you need for an exploit is to be able to make *one*
system call. And for that, you don't need to write to the code segment
at all. The stack is enough.


Face it, segments were the perfect security mechanism, and systems
developers completely ignored it!

Yousuf Khan



--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

Sander Vesik wrote:
and data segment are separate. It's like as if the stack had its own
container, the code has its own, and the data heap its own. What
happens in one container won't even reach the other containers.

Doesn't matter. All you need for an exploit is to be able to make
*one* system call. And for that, you don't need to write to the code
segment at all. The stack is enough.

The only place you can run code is from the code segment. If you insert code
into the stack segment, none of it will be executable. At best it might end
up causing the return address to go to the wrong part of the code segment
and therefore run the program from the wrong point, but more likely the
program will just end up locking up and be shutdown by the OS.

Yousuf Khan

On Thu, 27 May 2004, Yousuf Khan wrote:

The only place you can run code is from the code segment. If you insert code
into the stack segment, none of it will be executable. At best it might end
up causing the return address to go to the wrong part of the code segment
and therefore run the program from the wrong point, but more likely the
program will just end up locking up and be shutdown by the OS.

Changing branch address and stack values that get loaded to
arument registers (or just plain stack values on a stack machine)
are enough.

An object dump of a binary with stack overflow reveals the address
of a "system call" instruction, which is enough to know what return
adress is needed.

i.e. you don't need new code to execute you just need to get to
existing insn's in the binary with the appropriate state, and that
appropriate state can be set up with stack only overwriting.

Period.

Peter

Yousuf Khan wrote:
Sander Vesik wrote:
and data segment are separate. It's like as if the stack had its own
container, the code has its own, and the data heap its own. What
happens in one container won't even reach the other containers.

Doesn't matter. All you need for an exploit is to be able to make
*one* system call. And for that, you don't need to write to the code
segment at all. The stack is enough.

The only place you can run code is from the code segment. If you insert code
into the stack segment, none of it will be executable. At best it might end
up causing the return address to go to the wrong part of the code segment
and therefore run the program from the wrong point, but more likely the
program will just end up locking up and be shutdown by the OS.

Yousuf Khan

Yousuf,

Check out the following link:

http://packetstormsecurity.nl/groups/horizon/stack.txt

which explains how you can do overflow attack
when stack is not executable.
Although this is illustrated in Solaris/SPARC,
it equally applies to any x86.

Seongbae

Segments would've fully protected everything.

Your assurance is endearing. But re-read the thread for a counter example
where the only code executed (in this process anyway) already exists (it
just forks off a /bin/sh shell).

Segments protect just as "fully" as separate address spaces do.
It's better than nothing, but unless you're extremely careful, it's not
sufficient for real security. Better make sure buffer overflows *can't*
happen, so you can actually reason about properties of your code.


Stefan

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Grumble wrote:
You don't call any other function in your recursive functions? :-)

Hey, I avoid recursion. But if you called another fn,
it too would return.

As far as I can tell, and with the exception of recursive
functions which call no other function, RAS overflow will
cause a RET misprediction.

It should case a RET misprediction even then unless it duplicates
TOS when it pops. For use as a security mechanism, it'd be
better if TOS was tagged empty or missing. Then no MCE.

-- Robert

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Yousuf Khan wrote:
Still the only place where code can be executed from is the CS segment. You
cannot write anything into the CS segment once you're running, so even if
they screw up the stack somehow, then worst that's going to happen is that
the program will stop working and have to be shut down by the OS. Which is
basically what NX on the page tables does these days.

I can see I haven't made myself clear:
An exploit doesn't need to execute it's own code!

Merely jumping to a suitable place in existing, blessed code
(an exec() call) with nefarious data [stack] is sufficient to
be exploitable.

-- Robert