OK to use inkjet paper in a laser printer?

kony wrote:

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method,

Wouldn't overhead projector transparencies that are designed to be
printed on with laser printers be easier for this purpose (less hassle
but probably more expensive than your current solution)? I've seen
these used before for PCB etching patterns. Something like
http://tinyurl.com/3l7o63

Arthur Entlich wrote:

Although inkjet printers have developed more refined inks and heads
which produce a more presentable result on uncoated paper, all "fine
art" and photographic quality papers for inkjets are still indeed
coated, or have chemistry incorporated within them for controlling dot
gain, and proper ink distribution to get the dynamic range required.

Yes, there are a lot of uncoated papers available for inkjet use, but
they are almost all a compromise of quality over the coated papers.

Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
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kony wrote:
On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:46:03 -0500, Tony
wrote:

John D wrote:
I have a desktop laser printer which seems to get to much toner on the
copy-drum. I don't know why this happens to me and nor does the
engineer.

Are any ill effects caused by using "inkjet paper" in a laser printer.

ISTR inkjet paper has an extra coating on it. I wonder if inkjet paper
does not work quite right with the toner technology in a laser
printer/copier.

Unless the paper wrapper says that it is suitable for Lasers or Copiers then
you should not use it. Nowadays a lot of inkjet paper is in fact coated and
the
coating will probably damage the fuser in a laser printer.

Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
wouldn't cause problems).

If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then either
the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky. I have several customers
who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
using it in a laser. In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.
So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
Tony

On 2008-04-05, class_a wrote:
kony wrote:

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method,

Wouldn't overhead projector transparencies that are designed to be
printed on with laser printers be easier for this purpose (less hassle
but probably more expensive than your current solution)? I've seen
these used before for PCB etching patterns. Something like
http://tinyurl.com/3l7o63

That is a different method that uses the film as a light mask.
The board is pre-treated with a photosensitive coating and exposed
to UV light through the mask. After sufficient time has elapsed
the board is removed and processed in a developer solution which
removes the coating only on the areas that have has sufficient
exposure to UV light. This is in fact the usual way of doing it,
especially in commercial settings because it gives the most consistent
results, although as you say it is not the cheapest arrangement
possible.

Home users are less consistent in the process they use, primarily
because the UV exposure units are fairly expensive (mine was over
£100 and only does boards up to just over A5 in size). The method
Kony mentioned involves ironing the paper onto the board and peeling
it off. The toner at least in theory is transferred to the board
and forms the etch resist mask directly - no need for coated boards
or UV exposure.

I've tried it and myriad other home solutions with varying degrees
of success but gave up on them in favour of the UV solution. The
etch mask doesn't always transfer cleanly, sometimes the etchant
etches through the mask, and paper does vary dimensionally (with
humidity in particular, especially when you iron it) which can be
significant with super-fine-pitched devices. In short it's a great
experimental method but if you value your time and want consistent
results then I found it left much to be desired.

--
Andrew Smallshaw

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:50:20 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:

The risks are hard to reduce unless you specifically mention the exact
paper type you use

The risks are only hard to reduce because they're so low
already. You're acting as though most are a problem when
it's the opposite. Perhaps it should be left to the user to
determine what gamble they're willing to take with an
unknown variable, or test by exposing the paper to heat like
near a stove burner then checking for excessive softening.


...and have reasonable results with. One sheet of the
wrong paper can make for a very costly repair on the laser printer.


True, but that's not quite the same as a blanket statement
that isn't correct. People can and do use coated paper, so
perhaps it would be better for you to list specific ones
that don't work, as it is the minority that would be a
problem.





Many inkjet papers, especially glossy ones, have one or more
non-absorption layers, which may be a low melting point plastic.

Whether you mean to or not, by omission in your statement
you seem to be implying something that is incorrect. The
vast majority of inkjet papers do not have a low melting
point plastic layer. The vast majority can go through a
laser printer fine. The types that are problematic tend to
be specifically described as to their (type of) plastic
construction.





As you
say, others are safe, but only with specific knowledge is it safe to
make a broad statement.

True, and being conservative with someone else's printer is
a good idea. However, once someone is aware of the
conservative stance and it then comes down to details, most
coated papers don't cause a problem. If you know of any (at
all) that use a low melting point plastic layer and aren't
clearly described as containing plastic, please list those.

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 07:50:50 -0400, class_a
wrote:

kony wrote:

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method,

Wouldn't overhead projector transparencies that are designed to be
printed on with laser printers be easier for this purpose (less hassle
but probably more expensive than your current solution)? I've seen
these used before for PCB etching patterns. Something like
http://tinyurl.com/3l7o63

Overhead projector transparencies are better for finer pitch
designs. Usually I just have a PCB house make anything like
that, when the trace density is higher it makes more sense
as you are more likely to need more vias and 2+ layers.

For simplier circuits the toner transfer method works
acceptibly, at low cost, and it's not much of a hassle to
just put it in solution to soak for a few minutes. IMO,
more of a hassle to have the screen and light for
photoresist method, plus space dedicated to that equipment.
I suppose if it were the only activity then space isn't so
much of a factor but the amount of space all kinds of misc.
things take up, adds up.

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony
wrote:


Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
wouldn't cause problems).

If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then either
the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky.

False. Many, many people do so.


I have several customers
who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
using it in a laser.

Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low
melting point material it is listed as something unusual,
not just coated paper or photopaper.


In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.

I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is
possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone
with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically
described as suitable for laser printers.

On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper
will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now
more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing
paper that works in both types of printers because that
opens up another market segment to them. It would be less
of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer,
especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at
higher temp.



So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
Tony

Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being
conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's
equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring
the actual facts is excessive.

Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact
use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person
what risk to take, not you or I.

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:35:19 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:

In general, paper designed specifically for inkjet printers should NOT
be used in laser printers, because the paper is heated to quite a high
temperature in a laser printer, and most inkjet printers do not heat the
paper at all, or use very low temperatures (just to dry the ink a bit
quicker).

You conveniently ignored mentioning that it doesn't matter
if most types of inkjet paper get hotter.



Most standard bond paper will indicate it can be used for both inkjet
and laser paper. Some paper may have a finished surface to provide a
better image than laser bond paper, and those may indicate inkjet and
laser use.

The problem is with paper that is designated for inkjet use
specifically. It probably has a special coating on it. The glossy and
semi-gloss types usually have some plastic or gelatin coating which may
melt under the heat of a laser fuser.


It definitely has a coating, though "special" is a word
you're trying to spin towards you argument. The coating is,
like it or not, able to go through a laser printer without
problems. It is an unusual, rare rare case when it can't,
so rare that your blanket statement is incorrect.

However, even if they do not
melt, the may not react properly with laser technology. Some coated
matte papers designed for inkjets may be safe for laser printers, but
again, it is likely more costly than the equivalent laser version.

What happens is that if the coating is too slick, toner does
not adhere to the area. Printouts may not be clear or dirty
looking if that is a problem.




In general, it is best not to use papers designed for inkjet use in a
laser printer, unless they indicate they are safe for both technologies.
Further, in general, inkjet papers are much more costly than similar
types of laser printer papers. For instance, a glossy laser paper may
cost 10 to 20 cents, a similar glossy inkjet paper will cost 50 cents to
$1.50.


Glossy paper is cheaper now than it used to be. Using
coated paper in a laser seems to have become some kind of
urban myth in that everyone is saying "don't" so they have
insufficient evidence about it, just continually repeating
the myth instead. "Don't sail to the edge of the (flat)
world, you'll fall off"... and so most never tried.

kony wrote:
On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:03:58 -0500, Tony
wrote:


Actually, the properties that make a coated paper desirable
for inkjet use is the degree to which it absorbs ink, and
the gloss. It doesn't have to have a low melting point to
achieve this and most don't have a low melting point.

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
wouldn't cause problems).

If you have used coated paper in a laser printer without a problem then
either
the paper is designed for Laser use or you got lucky.

False. Many, many people do so.


I have several customers
who have found out the hard way to check the packaging of their paper before
using it in a laser.

Absolutely, if it is a specific type of paper using low
melting point material it is listed as something unusual,
not just coated paper or photopaper.


In some cases they have got away with it for some time and
suddenly the paper wraps around the fuser roller and then melts = new fuser.

I've never claimed the risk was nonexistent, yes that is
possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm. Someone
with no need for coated paper should buy paper specifically
described as suitable for laser printers.

On the other hand, someone who has need for coated paper
will generally find it works fine in a laser printer, now
more than ever before paper manufacturers are producing
paper that works in both types of printers because that
opens up another market segment to them. It would be less
of a gamble to try an unknown paper in a low value printer,
especially an older one as they tended to operate fuser at
higher temp.



So my advice remains the same, check the paper packaging, if it does not
mention Laser or Copier then it should not be used in a laser printer unless
the owner is prepared to risk a costly surprise.
Tony

Ok, and most of the time that would be incorrect. Being
conservative is good, especially when it's someone else's
equipment, but being conservative to the point of ignoring
the actual facts is excessive.

Anyone using a paper only described as coated can in fact
use it with only a very small risk. It is up to that person
what risk to take, not you or I.

I for one am not telling anybody to do anything. I merely answered a very
reasonable request for information and have provided an opinion.
For what it's worth, and I suspect you will find it worthless, here are some
bits of information.

1. This comes from a public HP document (user guide) for a current printer
"Do not use photo paper that is intended for Inkjet printers.
Do not use paper that is embossed or coated, or any media that produces
hazardous
emissions,
or that melts, offsets, or discolors when exposed to 190°C (374°F) for 0.1
second.
Also, do not use
letterhead paper that is made with dyes or inks that cannot withstand that
temperature."

This warning is typically present in most if not all HP LaserJet user guides.

2. http://www.okidata.com/mkt/downloads/OKIMediaGuide.pdf see page 12 item
G, OKI and HP seem to agree.

3. http://www.cs.indiana.edu/Facilities...ing/legal.html see the
note on the last page, it seems that the University of Indiana also agrees.

4. http://www.graphic-design.com/DTG/De...er/Laser2.html this seems to
be a business but see the penultimate paragraph.

There are many, many more that admonish people to not use coated papers in
laser printers unless specifically designed for that purpose which is all that
I said. It is unlikely in the extreme that a paper manufacturer would fail to
indicate the suitability of a particular paper for laser printers if indeed
that was the case. Therefore, is it not logical to assume that only paper that
is identified for use in a laser engine (printer or copier) is safe to use?

I don't know where you get your information that "I've never claimed the risk
was nonexistent, yes that is
possible, and yet a rare exception to the norm.". I dispute that absolutely, I
think I can safely say that cooated paper that is not designed for laser
printer use will always in due course cause damageto most laser printers, it is
only a matter of time. It may not happen today but it will happen. And if you
can't accept that, perhaps you can accept that to take even the slightest risk
is stupidity; in many cases the cost of a fuser approches the cost of a
replacement printer. Why would anyone take that risk knowing that the risk
exists. My own experience is that all printer manufacturers will void warranty
if inkjet only coated paper damages a laser printer and I have seen this more
often than I would wish.
Once more, why take the risk when there are alternatives available?

Tony
MS MVP Printing/Imaging

"kony"
[snip]

I regularly put coated inkjet paper through a couple of
laser printers I have, specifically it's semi-gloss photo
paper as this type has reasonable toner adherance but most
importantly for my needs, this type of paper delaminates
when soaked in a detergent solution (I use it to make PCB
etching patterns using the toner transfer method, in fact
many many people do so with coated inkjet paper in laser
printers without any problem, no damage to the fuser BUT
that is no guarantee some other type of paper-like medium
wouldn't cause problems).

Hi kony,

If you don't mind me asking, what paper do you get the best results with? I
picked up some of the Staples Glossy Photo Paper for a board last year
(never got around to making it though), and I would be curious to know which
one you use.

Jon